Am I the crazy one or is it the rest of the world? - Complacent society.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
i have paid more than $50,000 in mandatory car insurance payments in my life. i've never made a claim, no wrecks, and not one ticket since 1990. where has money gone? i dunno. but i pay because i have no choice, it is the law.

this planet has issues,
et

edit on 19-9-2010 by Esoteric Teacher because:

to add something

Get a 49cc scooter, do some mods, and you'll have a dot certified vehicle that doesn't require an insurance policy, state license, or tags, and can get's 60-100mpg, plus go fast enough (up to 50mph) for city driving without any issues.

reply to post by gwydionblack


Here is the fundamental flaw I see in your concept:

Let's say, for sake of conversation, that we burn this system to the ground and all set out, from scratch, to be self-sufficient...

Maybe you are good at farming. So you farm for food. But you need more than just corn and potatoes to live. So you begin to trade your neighbors your excess food for whatever excess items they have from doing what they enjoy and they are good at.

Now you find that there is nobody in town who has a particular necessary talent, so the town pools their resources to entice such a talented person to the area. This is done until all necessary skills are represented in your little paradise, which has now become a town.

People put up storage areas where they can house their excess goods - silos, warehouses, and the like. They do this because there are years of feast and years of famine. And this, once again, begins the cycle of wealth and the hoarding of it.

Now a drought comes. You have a several silos filled with the food that you've grown, but other people, who specialized in material goods, are now short on food because they only had subsistence gardens. Now your food is at a premium and you begin asking for more consideration in the barter ratio because supply is low and demand is high.

At some point all this bartering becomes so complex and common that somebody gets the idea that it'd be easier to keep paper records. Oh, and since we're doing this, another concept, paying some professions in "stock" certificates - papers which they can trade. at will, for whatever they need at the moment, seems like a good idea...

Do you see where it all heads???

Burn it down and it will build itself right back up because it's the most logical method of doing things.

reply to post by Hefficide


I highly disagree it is the most logical way of constructing society. I used to believe like you many years back, but I see where those in control of society have warped our sense of what is important to us as humans. Have you ever thought that the same system we have could be reversed? That having money would mean you were a burden on society. The more money you have to buy something is the more I have to work to sustain the production of a viable product. The more I earn is the more you have to produce.

Let me ask this: Can you buy something from yourself? Could you take something in one hand and pay yourself with money from the other? Can you buy something from your wife? Can you buy something from your child? How about your wife makes you dinner, can you buy her time for her service? If you can does it make any real difference as the money is contained inside the same household unit? Take this concept and apply it outwards. A family to their neighborhood. A neighborhood to their community. A community to their town. A town to their county. A county to their state. A state to their country.

There are other ways to structure society that are logically better if greed is not part of it. Service to others and mutual respect for the needs of each other, and quality of life should be at the forefront of any fair and just system. The problem we have is people want to control the amount of wealth be it personal or financial by proclaiming freedom is the ability to work everyday of your life to make someone else a profit, to pay 5x more interest on a house than it is worth simply because they had more money to build it and you did not, to hire you to work so that they may realize wealth, to perpetuate the system of madness at the expense of everyone else in pursuit of their own desires. Our system is the beast and nearly the whole world was fooled into believing it represents freedom.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by Hefficide

 

I highly disagree it is the most logical way of constructing society. I used to believe like you many years back, but I see where those in control of society have warped our sense of what is important to us as humans. Have you ever thought that the same system we have could be reversed?

I don't see a way to reverse supply and demand. People need to eat. People need to be housed. People need to be clothed. Add to that the fact that people also have desires which create industries unnecessary for sustaining life. The fact that we are having a conversation on the Internet is a prime example. Your television, another.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto

That having money would mean you were a burden on society. The more money you have to buy something is the more I have to work to sustain the production of a viable product. The more I earn is the more you have to produce.

I don't follow the logic here. Demand is not created by the amount of cash available. Demand is created by need and desire. The amount of money in any give system is just a function of facilitating this process.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto

Let me ask this: Can you buy something from yourself? Could you take something in one hand and pay yourself with money from the other? Can you buy something from your wife? Can you buy something from your child? How about your wife makes you dinner, can you buy her time for her service? If you can does it make any real difference as the money is contained inside the same household unit? Take this concept and apply it outwards. A family to their neighborhood. A neighborhood to their community. A community to their town. A town to their county. A county to their state. A state to their country.

Yes. I can buy something from a family member. In fact I have on more than one instance.

Let me ask you this one question... If it takes 8 - 12 years of difficult and complex education to become a doctor and that commitment would offer the same end results as, say, the guy who fries hamburgers at the mall - then how many people would really want to endure the process required to become doctors?

Originally posted by ExPostFacto

There are other ways to structure society that are logically better if greed is not part of it. Service to others and mutual respect for the needs of each other, and quality of life should be at the forefront of any fair and just system.

Greed is not even at issue in my statements here. A sense of nobility is not enough incentive for people to commit to giving more than they are compensated for. Communism would work wonderfully in a society where every member possessed equal skills and equal talents. But it falls apart when the realities are addressed. I personally would not want to allow a surgeon to operate on me who had the same compensation and skill levels as a ditch digger.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto

The problem we have is people want to control the amount of wealth be it personal or financial by proclaiming freedom is the ability to work everyday of your life...

No, freedom is not work. Freedom is freedom. Work and gainful employment is how you sustain life. Freedom to exist does not include the "freedom" to have anything. These are different concepts. You can leave the system and subsist. Some people do exactly this. They live in log cabins, in the wild, and struggle for subsistence without any of the comforts the rest of us enjoy because of our choice to participate in society.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto

...to make someone else a profit, to pay 5x more interest on a house than it is worth simply because they had more money to build it and you did not, to hire you to work so that they may realize wealth, to perpetuate the system of madness at the expense of everyone else in pursuit of their own desires.

I won't defend the greed of banks. I can't possibly begin to do so. But the concept of banking is sound - it's the present unregulated application of the idea that sucks.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto

Our system is the beast and nearly the whole world was fooled into believing it represents freedom.

The problem with this logic is that there isn't a shining example of a paradise society to point to. There isn't some small nation, somewhere, where nobody works, everyone lives like kings, and people share all of their labors without any selfish intent. The fact that no such place exists seems to suggest, to me, despite the reality that people have sought to create such societies time and time again, it just doesn't work in practice.

reply to post by Hefficide


I know where you are coming from. On the example of the doctor that takes 8-12 years, I agree these people should be compensated well enough. I think though that if the system were a bit more fair and accessible there would be a lot of people who really want to be a doctor but can not afford to spend the time to do so. Rather than healthcare maybe we should fund entire college grants to anyone wanting to be a doctor. I bet in 8-12 years there would be so many doctors the current doctors income would fall to nothing if left to a free market. Scarcity controls income. Lack of ability to obtain the desired degree to gain the income also insulates those with income to maintain their own.

My personal opinion having traveled down the line of thinking you emphasize is that socialism and capitalism as concepts are designed to keep us thinking within the constructs of a box. We can make the box however we want. It does not have to fit perfect into some textbook definition of an economic model. The model we have right now which is neither capitalism nor socialism sucks big time and needs to be altered taking the views of everyone into account while crafting a better world.

Let me ask you this one question... If it takes 8 - 12 years of difficult and complex education to become a doctor and that commitment would offer the same end results as, say, the guy who fries hamburgers at the mall - then how many people would really want to endure the process required to become doctors?


i can answer this one ... actually, i would say that some people just find being a doctor much more fun than flipping burgers. i would say the reason they study usually is so they can have a more interesting career, and making (a lot more) money is only a secondary reason.

imo someone who flips burgers or cleans floors has just as worthy a job as a doctor or lawyer. it's just ... not as fun.

You are my hero sir! You sound exactly like myself and I am equally determined having left my avionics career after a massive layoff in 2005. I have refused to work any other job that doesn't make me happy and in turn sacrificed a way I was expected to live. I think it's the best thing I have ever done. I've never been happier. I've stopped caring about the rat race and buying garbage I don't need. I've been so happy. The down side, same as you, is that my friends and family don't understand. They think I'm lazy and difficult. They don't understand. I also don't care what anybody else says I'm tickled pink that I also haven't paid income taxes in 5 years! Now I know I still pay all the other taxes but I still haven't paid income taxes to that joke of a criminal syndicate in D.C. and that also makes me happy. Keep up the good fight my friend!

I'm down with your views, they don't seem crazy to me. My hope is that this house of cards comes crashing down and NOBODY has a job. That we stop using money altogether. That we learn to value each other and our precious time on the planet and stop the stupid game of working to get nothing but an empty survival. The earth used to provide, humans used to work less than 20 hours a week and it was meaningful group work (food and shelter in the direct way).
I detest civilization to be honest. It's a ponzi scheme. Civilization has turned life into a prison work camp. I'm hopeful that the concept of spiritual harvest is real, and this false garbage life is close to done for good. But I'm not holding my breath.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
Now I make plenty of cash but don't feel like spending it......

You should buy gold. And silver.

Then you can grow that cash you have sitting around. And you won't being going out and 'spending gold', so that goes good with the whole 'don't feel like spending' concept you have become used to. Thee one day the truth about the gold market and the dollar will be accepted and you'll be rich!


*Make sure you take physical possession. Don't buy paper gold.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by Wyn Hawks

 

Ignorance. Unemployed does not meet I received handouts from the government. I received no handouts. I received no aid. I was denied unemployment benefits from the get go, and I am glad I was, because receiving a handout would have ruined the entire learning process.

...that contradicts what you wrote in your op (see below)...

Originally posted by gwydionblack
I was on unemployment for over a year.

...looks like a flip-flopper - but - if you want to explain how its just a misunderstanding, thats your call...

...btw, the poster colloredbrothers gave an excellent reply... hope you took the time to ponder it...

Sounds like a thread I'd like to participate in.
I'll begin with:

Challenge to everyone!

Present me with a better form of governing that eliminates
corruption, greed and usury. (Utopia?)
thought so, not gonna happen.

How about?
One that RETAINS our technological breakthroughs.
One that allows individuals to work their way up the social ladder.
The only system in existence that does that to date is capitalism.
Communism eliminates private property, so unless you're a party
member, you can slave away in a cotton field somewhere.

Got any examples? I'm all ears.

I wish I was born in the future. You know, when everyone stops lying to themselves about work being fun and finally implements a system of robots to do everything for us.

reply to post by joechip


The moment no one has a job and the economy fails we'll change currency,
or go into a third world war, or both.
Capitalism will restart and we'll have another 80 or so years before the next great depression.
Of course, at this point we'll all live in a united north America, but wtv, as long as
we all speak English and we all got food on the table it's not that bad.
We can all go back to the shopping center and spend amero dollars for all those nice things
we all love to have produced by Asian slaves we don't really care about.

reply to post by sliceNodice


The only system that will allow us to enter this future is Capitalism,
unfortunately for us, our masters might have other plans for the rest
of humanity once they got robots doing all the leg work.
I Imagine that since they haven't nuked the world to oblivion yet,
they're loving liberals who won't kill you unless they make a buck on your back.

reply to post by Radekus


I could tell you of such a system but I have this feeling you would not listen. Until then I will build the system myself, and when it is shown to work you can feel free to reject it and not be a part of something new. WE control the rules of our society. Sounds empty and utopian to you, but to me it is already transforming into my dream. Watch it crumble before your eyes and weep at all it had to offer you. Because before you know it your dream will be gone and mine will be beginning. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Originally posted by Radekus
reply to post by sliceNodice

 

The only system that will allow us to enter this future is Capitalism,
unfortunately for us, our masters might have other plans for the rest
of humanity once they got robots doing all the leg work.
I Imagine that since they haven't nuked the world to oblivion yet,
they're loving liberals who won't kill you unless they make a buck on your back.

Capitalism is a great system, and I agree with you we are not headed for it. The one problem with Capitalism, and all other systems for that matter is: you have to be a miserable slave in denial! Wouldn't it be awesome if we could just learn and party our whole lives? Imagine if everything was free, because robots did all the work. You could have 100 Ferraris if you wanted. You could have all the food you wanted. No more starvation, no more cubicle!! Robots would build themselves, mine materials, serve you on the phone, do your dishes, laundry, e..v..e..r..y...thing! People would be way more intelligent, because instead of wasting their time working, they could spend their time learning. Instead of currency, we would have old fashioned love and togetherness. People would slow down and talk to each other instead of rush rush, get to work, anxiety anxiety anxiety.

We have the technology to do all this. Think about it.

reply to post by ExPostFacto


So in other words you have no idea what your system looks like?
I'm all ears dude, I've thought of a perfect system myself,
the only thing that sucks about it is lack of incentives for entrepreneurial growth,
And lack of leadership makes it problematic when war occurs.
The system runs on bureaucracy only.

reply to post by sliceNodice


This is how I envision my own system.
the problem lies in government. to eliminate consolidation of power,
everything would have to be automated, with either the aid of robotics
and/or bureaucracy running city state wise, no federal or state governments.
No leadership, no corruption, no slavery.
The system works on consolidated barter trade,
in other words, you can consume as long as you work.
you can consume in proportion to what is being produced in your city.
Unfortunately...
If war were to occur you end up with a high tech USSR.
Need a nationwide army to defend the nation,
need leadership for this, suddenly you have a generalissimo
who leads the united city states to victory, you think he'll want to give up
his power? Common, of course not, you end up with a dictatorship at that point,
a benevolent high tech monarchy at best.

reply to post by Radekus


You can read about my idea at the following thread. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now if your system lacks incentive maybe this would give people incentive. My opinion is government should run all life essential services. This does not prohibit private business from competing or providing higher quality products. The goal of government though would be to automate all production of these services and goods. All, rich and poor are entitled to the services without qualification. There will be no need for social services as it is already something provided to all without qualification whenever needed. No need for millions of office positions to deny someone $300 a month for food. Most of the population will become self employed doing jobs they feel they are talented enough to do.

Some have found fault in my system. Some thought it was good. Some see some small tweaks needed. I believe any system can be tweaked to benefit all. Saying it will not work is plain idiotic. It is such a small change keeping the current system in place and taking out the greed of corporate conglomerates that are untouchable and hidden behind a mask.

You are not crazy. Its everyone else who has succumbed to this grand illusion that is crazy. Even crazier than them are those who throw the commands down upon us. My fiance and I have struggled with this for some time. He works hard and hates his job. I feel so bad for him as I am the stay home mom. We live in an apartment though so it tends to take its toll on me. Our ultimate goal is to get out of debt, buy property and house, and quit working. Though he works and wishes he could stay home, sometimes I wish I could go out and actually do something with my time. I feel bored most the time sitting here at home. But I try to fit it reading and art work into my free time outside the child so that I feel I have something to do. Once we get a house with a yard I will garden, grow my own veggies and herbs. All organic.
See... you don't NEED money to live OR to be happy. But it is more convenient to go to work for some # company for 8-9+ hours to have money to go to a store and buy food, than to tend to your own gardens and home. At least apparently that seems to be the case. Why should we HAVE to work for some company we hate, that doesn't benefit your personal life any, just to have money to buy # food at a store or even the latest techno gadget. Not only are we slaving our lives away in hopes of retiring, we are doing it to buy convenience and become lazy. Let alone the fact that the majority of food you buy, be it vegetables or meat, or boxed... its all bad for you. Greens are grown is mass production using chemicals and hormone treatments. Those who produce the food and allow for these chemicals to be added to our food, KNOW ABOUT IT. Think about it...
Seriously..think for just a min... you have ate store brand food (lays chips, store bought meat, fruit..etc) your entire life. All of sudden, your immune system isn't so good, your kidneys and liver are failing slowly therefore everything else in your body starts to react. You go to a doctor who gives you more chemicals as medicine, which only treat but not cure. Why do you think this happens.
Point is, we work our lives away, eat chemical based foods, get sick, use the money we earn to buy the medicine the doctors promise us we need. But they are all wrong. Not personally intentioned, its just the way they have been educated. When we get sick or ill, we pay the doctors.. the FDA more specifically to make us better, but they are the ones that make us sick by allowing and recommending these chemicals in the food we eat. So its all a way for the big dogs to make more money. You work your butt off all day to pay them and be able to barely afford your own life. Its all wrong. We can't fix the world though. But we can start by fixing our own personal life. Pay off your debt and get the hell of the grid. Thats my advice. Find a quiet place, buy a home and property, grow your own food, raise your own chickens, etc. If you want technology, the big tv, the game system... etc.. just know that those are temporary fixes to your unhappiness. The only true happiness is the love on one or family. Others give you a reason to smile and live. Not electronics.