Revelation; The seven churches (have been promised)

reply to post by Yissachar1

Thank you for that contribution.
Trying to match the letters to ages in the church will always be a little subjective.
I still think there's merit in my suggestion that Christian groups in a time of persecution would be able to recognise themselves in these churches and take warning or take encouragement accordingly.

Personally speaking ,I totally rely on the Sprit to help and guide me . Why He would have saved me is the first question I want a answer to though . peace

reply to post by DISRAELI


These churches believe in Jesus one way or another. Some of them need to be refined in the way they view God.

Matthew 10: 41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

John 13:13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Zechariah 3:9
For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ

James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge

The book of Revelation is the mind of God. We see in it how the judgements have been set and will manifest.
Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis and Laodicea are called to repent - to change their minds. What's the difference between a non Christian and an apostate Christian?

Originally posted by iamnot
Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis and Laodicea are called to repent - to change their minds. What's the difference between a non Christian and an apostate Christian?

The category "non-Christian" includes people who have never believed in Christ.
An apostate is someone who has believed in the past and given up the faith.
The churches being criticised in these letters are not, as such, either non-Christian or apostate, but they contain individuals who are offering non-Christian teaching, or behaving in non-Christian ways, and thus in danger of leading others astray and dragging the whole community down with them.
A modern equivalent might be, say, a Christian community which was becoming dominated by people offering a Gnostic approach.
All these warnings are about the danger of "falling away from" the Christian faith. You can't say that Hinduism, for example, is in danger of falling away from the Christian faith, because it was never part of the Christian faith in the first place.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
You see, you're not the first ATS Gnostic to take issue with my approach, and you won't be the last.
The Biblical God and the Gnostic God are two very different kinds of God belonging to two very different, and incompatible, kinds of religion, so the clash is inevitable.

well one is a clearer psychological description of such and one is not.
one is not a person and one is an imaginary person.
one is YOU and EVERYTHING and one is an imaginary vengeful spiteful dictator.
one is for 3 yr olds and one is for adepts.
(not to be conceded or implying anything in any way here...i have muuuuch to learn and grow in this)..

Finally, I take issue with the suggestion that this work has no practical application.
The promise of eternal Life, which is the theme of this thread, is a very practical issue.
The war with "evil", in general, is a practical issue.

true but that war is within.

edit on 13-9-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by prevenge
one is for 3 yr olds and one is for adepts.

"God chose what is foolish in this world to confound the wise"- 1 Corinthians ch1 v27
I would rather be a three-year old on the right path than an adept on the wrong path.

Briefly, Knowledge or "Gnosis" has to do with a dimension of consciousness beyond the consciousness of either the "self" or the 'thinker'. That dimension of consciousness is the consciousness Created 'by and in the image of God'.

Belief, on the other hand, is specifically an activity of the "beast of the earth" consciousness of the 'thinker'.

The ultimate goal of belief in the Revelations is for that belief to be consumed in Knowledge; in other words, for there to be a regaining (the "spiritual resurrection" of the Treatise On Resurrection) of the immediate experience of the consciousness that was lost through 'the Fall'.

That Knowledge consists of the resolution of the duality; whereas the consciousness of the "self" and the 'thinker' is the 'fallen' dualistic consciousness.

After believing that the Revelation and Doctrine of "resurrection" has to do with the Revelation of the Memory of Creation, the revelation of the memories of previous lives, and the Doctrine of 'Rebirth', the ultimate goal of such beliefs is to be consumed in the receiving of those Revelations.

The religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam exist at the dimension of the thoughts of the 'thinker'. And it is these religions which are pushing civilization toward annihilation.

On the other hand, the natural consequence of adhering to the Revelations upon which these religions are based is Peace.

One such Truth is that Mohammed was Elijah and John the Baptist 'raised from the dead'; a Truth which, if widely publicized and believed, would strike at the very foundation of both the consciousness of the 'thinker' and the conflicts between Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Neither the media, the politicians, nor the religious 'authorities' themselves want any such outcome at all inasmuch as, just like the weapons manufacturers, they make their money by engendering conflict, hatred and warfare.

Any arguments advanced by the 'fallen' consciousness, the consciousness of the 'thinker' against the Revelations are arguments in support of genocide; which is cryptically described in the Scroll of the War of the Sons of Light as the Second and Third Phase retaliations of the Sons of Darkness.

Michael Cecil

reply to post by DISRAELI

I would rather be a three-year old on the right path than an adept on the wrong path.

Well said, DISRAELI. This is where you lose most of them, however. Sad.

Just a few more comments about the "beast of the earth" consciousness of the 'thinker' that is also referred to in the Revelation of John as the "false prophet" and how that is related to "the Fall" and the "second death".

Now, to begin with, the "first death", something which is not mentioned in the Revelation of John, is the loss of the non-dualistic consciousness Created 'by and in the image of God'; which is also sometimes referred to as "original sin" or 'the Fall'.

If you ask the Christians whether they believe in 'the Fall' or in "original sin", most of them will say "yes".

But, if you ask them what they mean by such a statement--in other words, what did man 'fall' from and what did he 'fall' to?--it will become blindingly clear within a very short while that their belief is nothing more than a superstition. They have no knowledge whatsoever of what they are talking about. They are merely repeating what they have been told by others; which are nothing more than the thoughts of the 'fallen' consciousness themselves.

And, when they say that "God Created man", they automatically assume that God Created the "self" and the 'thinker'; which, of course, God did not Create at all. Both of these dimensions of consciousness were, instead, created through 'the Fall': the "self" being self-created by the 'movement' of self-reflection and the 'thinker' being self-created by the postulation of the thought of the 'thinker'.

So, the "first death" is the loss of the non-dualistic consciousness Created by God, resulting in the 'fallen' consciousness--that is, the consciousness of the "self" and the 'thinker'--whereas the "second death" is the annihilation of the consciousness of the "self" and the 'thinker' and the regaining, through the "spiritual resurrection", of the consciousness Created 'by and in the image of God'.

The opening passages of the Second Meditation of Descartes provide a very minor indication of what the experience of the "second death" is like--specifically, the traumatic collapse of the consciousness of the 'thinker' brought about by radical doubt.

On the other hand, the Thanksgiving Hymns (1QH) of the Dead Sea Scrolls describe the annihilation of the consciousness of the "self" prior to the experience of the Vision of the "Son of man" in the following words: "...the fortress shall open onto Endless Space."

That is, "the fortress" is the 'spatialized' consciousness of the "self"; and the "Endless Space" is the consciousness Created by God; which is conveyed through the Revelation of the Memory of Creation, the revelation of the memories of previous lives, and the Vision of the "Son of man" or "Night Journey" of Mohammed.

But why is the consciousness of the 'thinker' referred to as the "false prophet"?

Because its fundamental 'Prophecy' is that it will exist forever--whereas, according to the Revelations of the monotheistic religions, only the Creator Himself is an Eternally Existent.

It simply cannot imagine or conceive of a reality in which it does not exist.

It has created the thought of the 'thinker', or the 'mind', or a 'metaphysical soul', or an 'Eternal Self' which has an eternal existence in either "heaven" or "hell" or through the mechanism of 're-incarnation'. And it assumes that this thought will exist forever and forever and forever.

What the consciousness of the 'thinker' has no awareness of is that it is fully capable of instantaneously and traumatically collapsing altogether. That is, the 'thinker' simply cannot believe that the consciousness which allows it to interpret the Revelation of John, engage in human relationships, etc. etc. etc. will ever not exist.

And, what is worse, it is absolutely certain of this.

He or she who has the ears to hear, let him or her listen.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by jennybee35
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

I would rather be a three-year old on the right path than an adept on the wrong path.

Well said, DISRAELI. This is where you lose most of them, however. Sad.

This statement of DISRAELI's is what makes me believe he is true.

DISRAELI is not concerned with politics, but with Truth.

You haven't lost me, friend.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I'm the 3 yr old though.

reply to post by prevenge

OK, let's both be 3-year olds and accept the guidance of someone older and wiser than ourselves.
As far as I'm concerned, only the Bibical God fits the description.
Even my "cleverness" has no value unless it's being guided by God and being used to understand what he is saying rather than substituting myself for it. (I have to remind myself from time to time)

I think that you guys need to pray for understanding; ye have not because ye ask not. Each church represents a period of time, and the seven angels influence the active prophets during that time period. Take for example the Philadelphia church age witch began during the asuza street revival and ran until 2000. The open door represents the great number of missionaries sent around the world during the last century. Each age is shorter than the previous(birth pangs). I'm not saying I Know everything, but I seek truth as well.

reply to post by DISRAELI


lets both agree we've been a bit juvenile in pressing our points, and agree that as long as we both understand the reality of a Creator, whichever way we both reach it, works for both of us..
in the end we'll compare notes as to which method or interpretation was most beneficial as to understanding the incarnation of our soul in a divine body.

hey if it works then it gets the job done.
just don't do anything violent to me in the name of your version of god ok plz?

reply to post by spongebob

I think I would make the same response to you that I made to Yissachar;
Attempts to match the letters to ages in church history may be very subjective.
And how do you know that I don't ask?

reply to post by prevenge


Luke 17:21
"nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

I have to agree with you. I am also a gnostic apparently. I interpret the bible from an entirely spiritual perspective. Very rarely do I find any physical interpretation in it.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by prevenge

 

Luke 17:21
"nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

It is certainly fortunate that this is an Internet discussion group.

Nothing motivates Christians to violence more quickly and more intensely than quoting to them the Revelations in the Gospels in opposition to the nonsensical doctrines of Pharisee-Christianity.

This is precisely what the Albigensians did in quoting Jesus' statement about John the Baptist being Elijah 'raised from the dead' and the Gospel of Matthew 27:52-53 being not an occurrence in the space-time reality at all; but, rather, a figurative description of the revelation of the memories of previous lives; which was received by certain followers of Jesus at the time of the crucifixion...

Which is why, after its theologians were regularly trounced in debates with the Albigensians, the Roman church--named in honor, don't you know, of those who murdered Jesus--launched the Albigensian Crusade in which tens of thousands of Albigensians were slaughtered; many of them being burned alive...

Something which, of course, may very well be re-experienced in subsequent lives during the revelation of the memories of previous lives.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
Belief, on the other hand, is specifically an activity of the "beast of the earth" consciousness of the 'thinker'.

The ultimate goal of belief in the Revelations is for that belief to be consumed in Knowledge;

It is time to discuss the difference between Faith and knowledge.

The essence of Faith is trust. That is to say, it's about trust in someone greater than oneself, namely the Creator God.'

Whereas "knowledge" is about trust in oneself. Trust in one's own knowledge resembles trust in one's own wealth or trust in one's own power. The essence of "trust in self" is the quality of pride. This is the sin of Babylon, the fault that goes back to Babel.

That is why, as Paul says, God made a deliberate point of choosing those who who were not powerful (and so could not put trust in their own power), not wealthy (and so could not put trust in their own wealth), and not "wise" in their own eyes, full of "knowledge" (so that they would not put their trust in their own knowledge).
It is pertinent here to remind you of your claim that you are "the only individual in human history" qualified to interpret Revelation- a claim which brushes aside even your fellow-Gnostics. That is Pride.

The natural consequence of adhering to these Revelations is Peace

In your teaching, you claim to get rid of the dualistic consciousness of self, and you claim that a greater awarenes of this would bring Peace. Yet, as I have pointed out before, the resentful anger which you feel towards the religious authorities who ignore your message and ATS members who misunderstand or mock it is, in itself, a symptom of dualistic consciouness, and that anger does not encourage people to believe that you can offer Peace.
The source of that anger is not Peace.
It is hurt pride.

You need to consider giving up that self-pride in your own "Knowledge", and to put your trust instead in the superior Wisdom of God.
"God chose what is foolish in this world to shame the wise"- 1 Corinthians ch1 v27

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
according to the Revelations of the monotheistic religions, only the Creator Himself is an Eternally Existent.

This statement is slightly inaccurate as far as Christianity is concerned.
Yes, only the Creator is etenally self-existent.
But the New Testament also offers the specific promise of Life in the presence of God.
It is specified by Paul; "So shall we always be with the Lord"- 1 Thessalonians ch4 v17
I have just spent the entire OP outlining how this teaching is presented in the "letters to the seven churches". Rather than repeat the whole thing, I will just quote;
"he who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the Temple of my God,never will he go out of it"- ch3 v12
And this is confirmed by the later statement that "death shall be no more"-ch21 v4

It has created the thought of the 'thinker', or the 'mind', or a 'metaphysical soul', or an 'Eternal Self' which has an eternal existence in either "heaven" or "hell" or through the mechanism of 're-incarnation'.

But the "mechanism of re-incarnation" is in your own theories as well, even though you refuse to call it that. There is a fundamental contradiction here at the heart of your teaching. You claim that "self" is an illusion, and yet even in your own teaching there is something which experiences "past lives" and reincarnations. If there were any truth in the "no self" half of your teaching, nothing would exist to experience the past lives and multiple incarnations of the other half of your teaching.

What this tells me is that your ideas are coming from two different sets of sources, and you haven't done anything about reconciling them with each other.

Originally posted by prevenge
a long overdue topic that rarely gets attention is the analogy between the 7 churches and the 7 chakras of the endocrine glands nerve ganglions.

i would also say the 7 churches Also have relationship to the 7 'heads' of the beast
well at least the fallen parts of the churches...
why else are the true followers told to 'come out, of her'...& that even the elect will be deceived...