There has to be a beginning to everything, page 1

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Topic started on 2-9-2010 @ 04:00 PM by Romantic_Rebel

This thought came to me after watching the first Terminator film. Kyle Reese is sent back in time to protect Sarah Conner. The leader of the Resistance in the future. The time line is crazy. This is what we call a predestination paradox. Terminator wiki gives us the best insight.
terminator.wikia.com...

A predestination paradox, also called either a causal loop, or a causality loop and (less frequently) either a closed loop or closed time loop, is a paradox of time travel. It exists when a time traveler is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" him or her to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling his role in creating history as we know it, not changing it.

This article just blew my mind! I was even more confused as to what was going on in this movie. They were sent back in time to fulfill history? There has to be a beginning to this story. Then that is were I got my idea about our universe and everything else in it. There has to be a beginning to it. Whether you believe in a religion or a scientific theory. Looking at whatever I could find online I was glued to both religious and scientific articles online. I was drawn in to the concept of God in Judaism.
judaism.about.com...
Let's go into more detail why Judaism concept of God has got so much from me.

God is incorporeal. In Judaism, God has no body, God is non-physical. Any mention of God's body is considered to be metaphorical. Any physical representation of God, such as the Golden Calf, is considered to be idolatry. As God has no body, He has no gender. While God is referred to in masculine terms and the Shechinah (Divine presence that fills the universe) is referred to in feminine terms, God is actually neither male nor female.

As well these Judaism facts.

# God is eternal. God has no beginning and no end. He transcends time.
# God is omnipresent. God is everywhere. He has no spacial boundaries. He fills the universe and beyond. And He is always near.
# God is omniscient. God is all knowing. He knows all man’s thoughts and deeds, in the past, present and future.
# God is omnipotent. God is all-powerful. The only thing outside of God's control is man's free will.

The last quote got me thinking. "Free Will" What exactly is Free Will? Wikipedia's article on Free Will gives us this.
en.wikipedia.org...

Free will is the purported ability of agents to make choices free from constraints. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism. The opposing positions within that debate are metaphysical libertarianism, the claim that determinism is false and thus that free will exists; and hard determinism, the claim that determinism is true and thus that free will does not exist.

A while back I recall reading an article where Angels have no free will; even Satan in Judaism has no free will. While man has free will and therefore we our more powerful then angels because of our free will.
The creator of the article advises you to read this article before you read about Angles and Satan in Judaism to understand it better.
www.beingjewish.com...
www.beingjewish.com...
Hopefully this is not very for confusing. Looking at these articles still makes want to know is everything God or was just how a group people on Earth saw how the universe and everything else was created?
Here's an article describing similar creation myths.
www.usbible.com...
Now I'm not her to be skeptical of religion. I'm just trying to get my head out of the clouds and see where the beginning is and the end; if there is an end comes up.
As the same with various religious views of creation science is the same.
The Big Bang theory is quite popular with scientist of today. Still it is not proven even though scientist present numerous of evidence. The same could be said with religion. Still be the skeptic I am. I am still trying to find my foot in the door in time. My views our that we most likely will never find the beginning of time. Maybe their are aliens out their who knows about the universe who could prove both religion and science wrong and show us where we went wrong.
Are you like me or you have different ideas of my idea? Tell me what you think.

reply posted on 2-9-2010 @ 04:11 PM by Titen-Sxull

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

But why does there have to be a beginning to everything?

Many religious folks like to claim that atheists believe the Universe came from nothing, that something came from NOTHING but in this they commit a logical fallacy by assuming the default state is nothing - from which something must then come. The truth is that, for all we know, there was always something. Whether it be quantum phenomenon, gravity, energy... we just don't know. We've only been able to take it back to the big bang and before that we have a big question mark.

There are plenty of scientific hypotheses about before the Big Bang but very few have the necessary evidence to gain wide acceptance in the scientific community and therefore have even less chance of being accepted by the public.

Still it is not proven even though scientist present numerous of evidence.

Yes it is. The Big Bang has been conclusively proven. What started it all, the spark that caused the rapid inflation we call the Big Bang and got the Universe rolling is still a mystery as is where the matter and energy that expanded came from.

Are you like me or you have different ideas of my idea? Tell me what you think.

I think that the closer we get to the edge of our knowledge the more people will want to insert God(s) (not you necessarily, but others will want to). But that doesn't really answer anything.

Where did the stuff before the Big Bang come from?

Argument from Ignorance: God

But this leaves you with another fundamental question, where did God come from?

So you see that this doesn't work, it just leaves you with another mystery. We've already got enough mysteries and questions that need answering about the beginnings of the Universe, let's not complicate things by adding the supernatural explanations for which we have no evidence.

reply posted on 2-9-2010 @ 04:30 PM by jmdewey60

Simple thread. . .what is the meaning of everything.
So is the world real? or is it just an illusion?
I think time is how we experience reality.
Things interact with each other but not always in as a direct way as we might think. Nothing in itself defines itself in a physical way since its nature is not in it's control. Everything is what it is because God determines what it is. Without God, everything would degenerate into so much mush. Not really but something undefined.
I think God made the universe because He could, and that it would be sad to Him not to. We were supposed to learn to use the universe the way that God uses whatever it is that He lives in. So we should be like god clones but something happened to where we had to be crippled to keep from wrecking the whole thing. We have the opportunity to demonstrate a fitness to go to a higher level of functionality. I can not say what exactly the criteria for that would be and it is up to God.

reply posted on 2-9-2010 @ 04:31 PM by The Endtime Warrior

You know, you are right. There has to be a beginning to everything. You know when things began? When you began "existing". Now chew on that for a little bit....

reply posted on 2-9-2010 @ 04:33 PM by leira7

From what we perceive, all of that black space out there is nothing, but there is no such thing as nothing, because nothing IS something. Either it is all nothing, or it is all something. Where did it all begin? How did it all begin? It just is, and at one time, it didn't know it. Kind of like being asleep.

I don't believe in a centralized big bang. I like to think this material Universe got puncture by another Universe. At one time, I believe there was no sound here. Now that the sound is coming, penetrating this realm, we are beginning to see the light bleed through. Particles are being put into motion, vibrations are transferring energy. I believe there are stages to Universes, and this one if very young.

How do I know? I don't, I can only assume that it is young, because, though we have many galaxies, there is a vast amount of low vibrating matter, motionless, stillness. it's like a pond, we're living in a very stagnant pond. Galaxies have light, because they work in harmony, they transfer and conduct energy, and it begins with the central star. How did the central star form? It came to be from the force emitted by the central star of this Universe. How did the Central Star of The Universe form? It was pierced by the force of a nearby Universe.

I see the Universe as one gigantic flower bed, and it is spreading it's seed about this field of darkness. Life is in sound, particle motion, that creates attraction, and Light. We like sound, we like good vibrations. Where did the first sound come from? Maybe it just happened by accident, and started a chain reaction. I don't know. Maybe it all started with ONE THOUGHT, one brain wave that transformed The Immaterial.

reply posted on 2-9-2010 @ 04:51 PM by Arkady

reply to post by The Endtime Warrior

It's wierd to think that we once did not exist. I think people need to remember that when they fear death. We've all been dead before and it wasn't too bad.

reply posted on 2-9-2010 @ 04:53 PM by The Endtime Warrior

reply to post by Arkady

It is hard to fathom....this is why I remain very cynical in life when it comes to people claiming to have theories of why and how something is to be. How do they really know?

btw Marth is sharpening his blade for Bowser, whats the dilly yo? LOL

reply posted on 2-9-2010 @ 05:00 PM by I Want To Believe

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

I personally believe in the big bang theory.......God said it and BANG it happened. Thats how i believe the universe was created God spoke it into existence. Even now scientists are confounded as to how our bodies remain intact without just dissolving. There are some scientists that say there exists a cohesion molocule that keeps our bodies intact but i dont believe that has actually been proven. Scripture says that God keeps the world together with the power of His Word,why not even our bodies. It is truly amazing how everything fits together to glorify God. I mean who else could have designed such a complex intricate universe such as the one we live in except an omnicient Almighty God. Have you ever taken the time to consider how truly amazing and vast the universe and the world is. How could all of this have happened by random chance the odds are absolutely astounding. There had to have been a Designer and a Maker of everything around us nothing happens by sheer chance. I really liked the old Terminator films they were certainly thought provoking but the newest one Terminator Salvation was by far the best of the Terminator series. Christian Bale and Sam Worthington were just plain absolutely awesome. I should probably stop now before i get to talking about time travel or my post will have no end. Interesting thread topic op.

reply posted on 2-9-2010 @ 05:35 PM by Soldier of God

Originally posted by Arkady
reply to post by The Endtime Warrior

It's wierd to think that we once did not exist. I think people need to remember that when they fear death. We've all been dead before and it wasn't too bad.

If you weren't created yet then how were you dead???
That's where everyone goes wrong, you are using human intelligence to try to figure out what God has created... not gonna happen.
Your cat can see your TV but does it know that there are 300 channels?

reply posted on 2-9-2010 @ 07:45 PM by The Matrix Traveller

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

I'm Not religious but these are some interesting words regarding the beginning...

From "The Gospel of Thomas"... Quote;

18. The disciples said to Jesus, “Tell us how our end will be.”

Jesus said, “Have you discovered, then, the beginning,
that you look for the end?

For where the beginning is,
there will the end be.

Blessed is he who will take his place
in the beginning;

he will know the end and will Not experience death.”

Perhaps the beginning and the end occupy the same location ???

[edit on 2-9-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply posted on 3-9-2010 @ 06:11 AM by EasternShadow

If Kyle Reese is from future and past ( to fulfill history ) then

1. Kyle Reese's future stop the moment he step back into time.
2. History doesn't exist because it's never fulfill in the first place
3. Past never end because future can return to past.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by EasternShadow]

reply posted on 3-9-2010 @ 06:32 AM by Xtinguish

Why does there have to be a beginning? A beginning and end is just a simple measurement of time. We can say this post began when the directors of Terminator had the idea for the movie. Or how about when the directors were born? Or perhaps when the directors grand parents or great grand parents came to America?

Trying to put a beginning on something that has no beginning is much like this. You can pick a point anywhere and say that's the beginning.

reply posted on 3-9-2010 @ 07:14 AM by imherejusttoread

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
The last quote got me thinking. "Free Will" What exactly is Free Will? Wikipedia's article on Free Will gives us this.
en.wikipedia.org...

Free will is the purported ability of agents to make choices free from constraints. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism. The opposing positions within that debate are metaphysical libertarianism, the claim that determinism is false and thus that free will exists; and hard determinism, the claim that determinism is true and thus that free will does not exist.

Romantic_Rebel, I have asked myself what 'free will' really is many times; I was never able to get a satisfied answer, until one night, as I was reading Mr. Hawkings' A Brief History of Time, there's a comment in there that hit me like a stack of bricks. I've always innocently envisioned that freedom of will means free from constraints, and that's usually the popular definition as well, but is it really? A simple observation of the fundamental interactions and laws of physics on the macro scale clearly says this is not the case, and if this is not the case, doesn't that negate free will? The answer to those questions are both yes and no.

Yes, in the sense that we are visibly constrained by the forces around us; we can never act without a prior cause, but as for no, if we take a different semantical vantage point, we could simply say that people have free will because we cannot predict what they will do next. This is a radical definition when compared to the classic concept.

Personally, I am a strong determinist, and I believe from an omniscient vantage point, all things are determined according to their ends and form, but from a non-omniscient vantage point, things are not determined because we simply cannot predict how they will be determined. I recommend Arthur Schopenhauer's treatise The Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason. It's a lengthy work, but in it he does an almost irrefutable job that all things are determined, and all things being determined implies the principle of sufficient reason.

Hopefully this is not very for confusing. Looking at these articles still makes want to know is everything God or was just how a group people on Earth saw how the universe and everything else was created?
Here's an article describing similar creation myths.

I am He who exists from the Undivided. . . . It is I who am the light. . . .I am the All. Everything came from Me and Everything extends unto Me. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Part the stone, and you will find Me. - The Gospel of Thomas

reply posted on 13-9-2010 @ 05:15 PM by NorEaster

Yes Virginia. There is a beginning.

That said, don't expect it to be mystical or fantastic. Expect it to be so simple that it's almost embarrassing to embrace as truth. More elementary and nondescript than you could ever allow. In fact, it's almost insulting when you finally figure it out.

edit on 9/13/2010 by NorEaster because: I can't spell

reply posted on 13-9-2010 @ 05:30 PM by The Matrix Traveller

If considered “Sequentially” then there is a beginning and end to every Story…

But if considered “Statically” then all is present together.

Just like Data stored Statically.

But when "Compiled" and presented “Sequentially” the illusion of time appears.

reply posted on 14-9-2010 @ 07:34 AM by NorEaster

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
If considered “Sequentially” then there is a beginning and end to every Story…

But if considered “Statically” then all is present together.

Just like Data stored Statically.

But when "Compiled" and presented “Sequentially” the illusion of time appears.

Philosophically, yes. However, if something is affected by causation - which physical existence obviously is - then it exists within a Sequential realm. It may have representation in a Static realm, but all newly emerging manifestations of it will originate in the Sequential realm, giving that realm true ownership of it as a definable something that exists (as opposed to a representation).

With that established, the question reverts to initial genesis of the Sequential realm itself, since such a realm inherently suffers from definite parameters and properties - as does everything contained within it. What we can know, however, is the foundational common attribute. That which brings all that exists within such a realm together in commonality. Since it is a Sequential realm, the obvious common attribute (allowing all that changes to have any possibility of organized causation and eventual structure) is a common Causal Unit Rate. This is the span of one event unit. A chain of events consists of one unit relinquishing to the next unit, with each unit becoming historical as it is replaced. Simple enough. The rate of release and replacement can be determined by the foundational vibration, with the effort made to strip out that vibration's harmonic resonance to its absolute center. If you can do that (good luck) then you can determine the Causal Unit Rate, and establish the common attribute for the entire realm.

Not that such a determination will give you any control over the core nature of that realm itself, but who knows what sort of influence it could allow you over all the physical existence within that realm. Then again, if you exist within that realm - which would be a given, if you've got access to it - then your own existential foundation would be that same Causal Unit Rate. Being this far up the existential foodchain might appear to have its drawbacks.

Too early to tell, though.

edit on 9/14/2010 by NorEaster because: spelllling

reply posted on 14-9-2010 @ 07:39 AM by Student X

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

I have two words for you: retro-causality and retroPK.

reply posted on 14-9-2010 @ 07:51 AM by jjkenobi

How can you say Angels have no Free Will? Are you implying that when God created who we now call Satan that the plan all along was for him to fall from grace with 1/3 of the other angels? I think God knew it could happen, but hoped it did not. The same as with my two children. I created them (sort of) and I hope they do great things, but they have the free choice to turn into murderers or criminals. Would you then blame me for creating a mass murdered?

In a similar vein to not being able to alter history, or destiny, I believe that God has a plan for what He wants to accomplish but there are numerous ways for it to be done. For example, if pastor Rick Warren said early on in his life I don't want to be a pastor I am going to own a gas station instead he is able to make that choice due to free will. I do believe however God had a backup so to say that would have stepped in and filled that role. And if the backup also chose differently, then another person and so on. The end result would be the same, just accomplished by different people and circumstances.

reply posted on 14-9-2010 @ 05:55 PM by The Matrix Traveller

reply to post by NorEaster

May I say a very good response to my statement ?

You obviously have a good grasp of what I am proposing.

How the “Sequential” result is achieved, is through "Communication" between What has “Compiled the Stack” and what is experiencing the "Sequential nature of the Stack".

The "Source" may in fact not necessarily be from a single source, but is perhaps through a common system of processing.

The result is experienced after the "Decoding" takes place via the brain and its “Interfacing” Components such as the members of the Species.

What we "see", "feel", "hear", "smell" and "taste", is not necessarily what actually exists, but is only the common "Decoded" version (via the brain) of a commonly shared "Stack", in this case the Environment the Earth and Species, as well as a very small portion of the “Outer” or “Outward” Experience we call our Universe.

(( Perhaps we need to be able to both Detect and see the "Communication" within the "Stack" to be able to make practical use of this i.e. to be able to read "Common Manuals" or information regarding All and Edit say for example the Structure of DNA, if we want to or to Control things in a practical way within our "Environment", such as Controlling "Vehicles", "Construction" (buildings etc.) or even "Manufacturing", presently involving manual labour, and some automated systems.
There is work being done at present in this area, involving the "Communication formats", which are responsible for presenting our experiences. ))

There are billions of "sub-Stacks", which interact with the Environmental "Stack" common to us all, who are at present experiencing the Earth Environment including its Species.

Accessed by each of our individual entities, are further "Stacks" which we cross between, thus producing the illusion of "Choice". i.e. which "Stack" of these "sub-Stacks" we choose to experience at any one time.

And yes it is possible to Edit any given "Stack", but in saying this, you correctly stated (I believe also) it gives us No "Control" over the "Common Source".

Perhaps not being able to Control the Source is a blessing ?

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