Net Neutrality and Why You Should Care

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by soficrow

 

Originally posted by soficrow
NoHierarchy again:

"free markets- they're all good and well but ONLY if we dismantle hierarchies/centralization within MARKETS at the exact same time we dismantle them in governments. If we shut off government but allow massive, centralized, top-down, hierarchical markets/businesses to exist... you're still going to have tyranny, except there won't even be the ILLUSION of Democracy, a public vote, or fair representation... "

Centralization in the Capitalist Free Market has already been dismantled by Anti-Trust Legislation which would have never been possible if the Centralized Constitutional Federal Government would have been dismantled.

I mean no disrespect but you Progressives are laughable. You must really think that us common folk are stupid or something. You want to dismantle the Capitalist Free Market, along with the Federal Government......... Let the Market correct itself. It's when politicians start tinkering with the market that problems soon develop.

Have sensible regulations that protect us from the likes of criminals who have gotten us into the mess we are in today. But don't try to tinker with the Market, and don't try to dismantle it. And don't try to abolish the Federal Government either. As loathsome as The Fed can be at times, it is necessary in order for the country to prosper. It is also Constitutional.

I think you need to put down the Hayek, Rand, and Rothbard and study the real world of markets.

What I find so irrational/silly about many free-marketers is that they falsely believe that all wrongs of their markets are the government's fault, somehow magically, and that free modern/Capitalist markets would be beautiful, tolerable, prosperous utopias... but they've proven that they're not.

Power and wealth corrupt, plain and simple. Governments and markets are inherently corrupting, plain and simple. Dismantle them both or dismantle neither. If we don't have checks and balances we have autocracy. We don't have it terrible... but there is also massive room for improvement. Capitalism is just as much a failure as Communism.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by soficrow
Net Neutrality would prevent corporate gate-keepers and government from controlling the Net.

But the net cant be controlled by Corporations. One can only control the content coming from ones own Server.

reply to post by Skyfloating

But the net cant be controlled by Corporations. One can only control the content coming from ones own Server.

It can be controlled by ISPs. Net neutrality would outlaw this. The ISP would be able to control only speed and amount of data, but not its content.

reply to post by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Power and wealth corrupt, plain and simple.

Indeed.

Governments and markets are inherently corrupting, plain and simple. Dismantle them both or dismantle neither.

And replace them with what?......with you?

If we don't have checks and balances we have autocracy.

We have checks and balances, in Government and in the Market. We need better regulation in certain areas like derivatives. And don't forget that it was politicians, (Barney Frank and Cris Dodd, to be specific), who got us into this mess by forcing banks to make bad loans to minorities, along with the failure to regulate phony derivatives trading.

Hang the politicians, don't dismantle the system. The system will work fine if we get the right people in there. Vote them all out of office, and if the new wave fails to perform, vote them out too, even call for massive recall elections! They'll get the hint. Don't give em a break. Shout at them in the streets, scream at them when they are out to dinner, yell at them when they are going into work. Sooner or later they will have to do the right thing.

We don't have it terrible... but there is also massive room for improvement. Capitalism is just as much a failure as Communism.

Bulls***! Things are terrible. The only room for real improvement is what I have described above. Capitalism has not failed. It is Communism that has failed all over the world......why do you think they all had to resort to Capitalist Markets?

It is the politicians who have caused all of our problems. Let's get rid of them. Vote them out. Send them home.

[edit on 6-9-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

Originally posted by Chevalerous
While we're at it about Internet freedom, just ask Google about Fascist China, if their Internet for 1.3 billions is freer than ever!

Because the Chinese are under Commie-Administration they have their own version of "Net Neutrality" that does not allow anything critical of the Government to be found on Google. There are ways to access that "forbidden content" nevertheless.

If we dont watch out, Free America will turn into similar and the Government will impose "Net Neutrality".

It's for an example only imaginations & lies that the Media mogul Silvio Berlusconi and other elite Corporations & the corporatocracy are now actually lobbying to censor forums, Blogs and digital news-papers to control what should/could be written on the net in Italy and in several other countries around the EU.

Yeah, like they're actually succeeding

Look at Wikileaks.

I love it how people keep complaining of having "no freedom of speech" while writing about EXACTLY the things they supposedly have no freedom of speech about.

This is exactly what the Supporters of Net Neutrality are trying to prevent!

No.

And No.

They are:

1. Creating an Artifical Problem ("The Corporate Fascistoids have taken over the Internet!!!!!")
2. Offering the Solution ("More Regulations! More control!")

They are seriously discussing this on the highest political levels right now both in the EU and the US - Have you totally missed this?

Have you missed that freedom of information and free information has steadily been skyrocketing since 20 years?

Hello?

You must have misunderstood what exactly Net Neutrality is about?

Its about ISPs not being able to charge for access to certain content.

(especially those who are delusional enough to think that the Commies are behind Net Neutrality! -

Commies can be recognized by Vocabulary. Examples: "Equality". "Neutrality". "Oppression". If you see those words 8 times out of 10 there is a Commie-Agenda behind it.

Regarding the Internet:

If it aint broke dont try to fix it

Leave us Internet-Users and Corporatists alone. All in all you're just another Brick in the Wall.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by soficrow
One particular experience stands out for me - around 7:00am of December 4, 2003, I was reading articles about "fibromuscular dysplasia" on the US national medical database, "Pubmed," which listed over 1.5 million articles on the subject. Suddenly, everything disappeared and a window came up saying, "This topic has been closed." ...I spent about 5 hours that day madly dashing from one database to the next, as they ALL closed on the topic. ...Pubmed re-opened the topic after about 3 months and a HUGE outcry - but the 1.5 million articles were censored down to about 16! In the intervening 7 years, the total is now 307.

Thats a very interesting account, to say the least.

Uh huh.

And I have NO doubt that the censorship was demanded by corporate industry, and legitimized by a government-corporate partnership. So...

The Net Neutrality I support is NOT about regulating access - it's about protecting access, and preventing government and corporations (ie., government-corporate partners) from limiting our access.

As I said before, I've been surfing the Net for almost 2 decades - and I KNOW our access is being controlled and limited already. imho - unlimited access for social networking doesn't count.

The "problem" has not been artificially created to justify intervention. The problem is real.

The solution is Net Neutrality that protects our access, prevents government and corporations (ie., government-corporate partners) from limiting our access, and nothing else.



btw MY2Commoncentsworth and chevalerous - how 'bout we lose the ad hominem attacks? ...this subject is incredibly important, and deserves our undistracted attention on the real issues and arguments.

Originally posted by Maslo

It can be controlled by ISPs. Net neutrality would outlaw this. The ISP would be able to control only speed and amount of data, but not its content.

Precisely.

And it is my Belief that a Service-Provider should be able to determine what services it provides and what services it does not provide.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Maslo

It can be controlled by ISPs. Net neutrality would outlaw this. The ISP would be able to control only speed and amount of data, but not its content.

Precisely.

And it is my Belief that a Service-Provider should be able to determine what services it provides and what services it does not provide.

imnsho - My taxes paid for R&D, infrastructure development and continues to keep these guys in business.

You bet your butt I want free access to a system I help pay for!!!

Most recently:

...the Departments of Commerce and Agriculture "have almost completed the process of distributing $7 billion in funding from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA),"

Big cable has beef with FCC, says broadband deployment is timely

Same with scientific research - our taxe$ pay for the bulk of it, but until recently, the "industry-partners" owned the copyrights to the research papers! They still own the Intellectual Property Rights!

We're paying at both ends. Enough!!!


OPEN ACCESS, please.






[edit on 6-9-2010 by soficrow]

reply to post by Skyfloating

And it is my Belief that a Service-Provider should be able to determine what services it provides and what services it does not provide.

I have already pointed out that noone would be banning restricted and content-limited connections, as long as ISPs wont call them Internet. Because its not. It would be some corporate advanced IP "Cable TV".

Its like allowing beverage producers to sell pure water masquerading as Coca-cola - fraud on consumers.

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by NoHierarchy

We don't have it terrible... but there is also massive room for improvement. Capitalism is just as much a failure as Communism.

Bulls***! Things are terrible. The only room for real improvement is what I have described above. Capitalism has not failed. It is Communism that has failed all over the world......why do you think they all had to resort to Capitalist Markets?

Because really, there's not much difference -at all- between the two in practice.

Capitalism and Communism: Two Sides of the Same Coin?

But Net Neutrality has nothing to do with communism. Nor will Net Neutrality destroy all hope of a Free Market - it might just create a real free market.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I don't know why you continue to completely ignore valid points made to you. You completely ignore proper explanations of Net Neutrality (with proof) and instead keep parroting this bizarre and childish anti-commie tirade. Using words like equality/neutrality/oppression absolutely DOES NOT make you a communist. I really don't know what world you're coming from... but it's getting out of hand.

So I ask you- please PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that Net Neutrality is about controlling content and not about allowing free access to all. Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Net Neutrality is part of a communist conspiracy to enslave us and control every aspect of the internet. Keep in mind... you need actual PROOF of this as well as VERY solid/LOGICAL arguments. You're not providing any of that so far, so either change your approach or concede defeat in this debate and reconsider your position.

Denying ignorance means denying ignorance in yourself, no matter how deeply you believe it.

reply to post by NoHierarchy

...bizarre and childish anti-commie tirade. Using words like equality/neutrality/oppression absolutely DOES NOT make you a communist.

Yeah!

...Why - if you question the establishment - are you instantly labeled a "Commie"???

What's with this "Shut up and conform mentality" ???

...In my experience, if the establishment is pushing anything, you'd best MIStrust everything about it, and lock up your virgin daughters while you're at it...

The establishment is saying leave the net alone just like you left the banks and BP alone. The market will take care of itself.

Okay.

[Note: Itself; not freedom.]

reply to post by soficrow

Originally posted by soficrow
Because really, there's not much difference -at all- between the two in practice.


Capitalism and Communism: Two Sides of the Same Coin?

What is it about Corporations that you hate so much? If you are afraid that they are going to make a profit, why don't you just buy stock like a normal person does? Why do you want to dismantle the Corporate Structure that has made this country great?

If you really believe there is little difference between Capitalism and Communism you are either overwhelmingly ignorant or you are just trying to spread Communist Propaganda. Which is it?

[edit on 7-9-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by soficrow

 

Originally posted by soficrow
Because really, there's not much difference -at all- between the two in practice.


Capitalism and Communism: Two Sides of the Same Coin?

What is it about Corporations that you hate so much? If you are afraid that they are going to make a profit, why don't you just buy stock like a normal person does? Why do you want to dismantle the Corporate Structure that has made this country great?

If you really believe there is little difference between Capitalism and Communism you are either overwhelmingly ignorant or you are just trying to spread Communist Propaganda. Which is it?

[edit on 7-9-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

Capitalism and Communism in-practice have BOTH lead to tyranny, extreme class division, and environmental destruction. Of course... this is a facet of our entire civilization no matter what mini-system we adopt, but regardless, to deny that Capitalism is tyrannical (both in a macro/micro sense- macro, meaning to world economies/ecosystems/cultures; micro, meaning top-down oppressive structures within companies where the workers are dominated and shorted their dues) to deny that it's environmentally destructive, to deny that it has proven very economically unstable... it's insane and exhibits blind ideological denial of reality.

Wake up- it's time to move beyond the systems that fail us instead of trying to hammer out and polish a defective machine.

reply to post by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Wake up- it's time to move beyond the systems that fail us instead of trying to hammer out and polish a defective machine.

Ya but what would you replace it with? Care to share that with us? And how will net neutrality be protected under your new system?

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Chevalerous

It's for an example only imaginations & lies that the Media mogul Silvio Berlusconi and other elite Corporations & the corporatocracy are now actually lobbying to censor forums, Blogs and digital news-papers to control what should/could be written on the net in Italy and in several other countries around the EU.

Yeah, like they're actually succeeding

Look at Wikileaks.

I love it how people keep complaining of having "no freedom of speech" while writing about EXACTLY the things they supposedly have no freedom of speech about.

This is exactly what the Supporters of Net Neutrality are trying to prevent!

No.

And No.

They are:

1. Creating an Artifical Problem ("The Corporate Fascistoids have taken over the Internet!!!!!")
2. Offering the Solution ("More Regulations! More control!")

You have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about! - you have almost everything backwards!

How do I know that you got this backwards?

Because some of the good points you have made ARE ACTUALLY FROM THE PROPONENTS OF NET NEUTRALITY INITIALLY but has then been stolen, twisted around a little and is used now by the Corporate OPPONENTS to the NET NEUTRALITY.

This is very clever propaganda and modus operandi from the Corporate lobby groups, the Corporatocracy and their Corporate lackies - indeed.

You take some good points from your opponents, twist the meaning around of the message a little to fit your aganda - and then deliver its content as your own political message - and delusionally and falsely say: look this is what the proponents want with Net Neutrality!


When the truth actually is the totally opposite.


And by the way! Wikileaks are not an Internet Service Provider!

And furthermore, they work through one of the few totally independent ISP's that is not owned or controlled by these fascistoid interest groups - YET!

And you have apparently ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what is happening here with the Media/Internet services in Europe with ISP's who are closely connected to people who are openly Fascist as well - in France, Italy, Spain and many other European countries where the Fascist Corporatocracy (A.K.A the business people who are influencing the EU politicians regarding new laws with the Internet surveillance & Internet control aganda to work in their favor) are very close to the elite Politicians, figure heads and some Ministers who are running the countries.

As I said in another thread:

Due to crazy circumstances, destiny and an old good friend of mine I came across several of these influential "Internet/Media" business/investor people at a very posh private party/informal business event in Southern Europe some years ago.

There I met and small talked with some of the business friends who for an example works around Berlusconi and other important media people & some politicians in Europe, while all were mingling around the huge Villa, sipping Champagne.

I and one lady friend ended up talking with one group of Spanish businessmen when some older Italian guys joined the group out on the terrace and started talking.

To my surprise one of the Italian guys takes up his cell-phone and suddenly I hear this old Nazi anthem: The Horst-Wessel-Lied playing out loudly - and then everything very quickly became just surreal.

Some of the Spanish guys turns out to belong to the Spanish Fascist "Falange" and they in turn take up their own wallets and phones with pictures of Franco, Hitler and Mussolini and start showing them around while all of them had a bright smile on their faces.

I just nodded my head and smiled like some damn Idiot myself because I was totally perplexed by what was happening in front of my eyes - I didn't know what to do or how to react - it was seriously an awkward & bizarre moment.

There you had some important European Media/Internet/ISP business people and deciders from the media and Internet related Investors showing "Fascist" pictures and playing different 'Fascist anthems' on their phones, comparing stuff to eachother like children do on the schoolyard.

During the few hours I was there I heard how they talked eachother about the best way of lobbying certain things of their agenda in Media and for the internet - about advancing control while making money at the same time.

It was a totally surreal situation and I immediately felt quite uneasy with the whole bizarre event - so I talked with my old friend who had invited me and excused myself for us leaving the party early.

Let me present to you a business "friend" to the Media mogul Berlusconi - Lele Mora




This guy was not present at the same party event I was, but this is what some of these guys and friends of them have in their wallets and phones - they are the same kind of people I once had the opportunity to meet at this one event - they are the deciders, some of the influencial investors & owners of New Media & the Internet Service Providers - a few were also people representing business interest groups from the old Media and some of the private TV industry in Europe.

They probably go to Bilderberg meetings as well!

And many of them were apparently openly Fascists! - how crazy isn't that?

So many people here are telling you the truth about Net Neutrality and is trying to pass on some education about certain things to you guys on how cheated you are from your Corporatocracy's propaganda and from your corrupt politician's Corporate agenda - but all you do is being childish and wrongly accuse them of being Commies!

But it's actually you guys who are being taken for a ride by these people! - big time!

Unfortunately and sadly, you don't have a clue of what you're talking about!

They are:

1. Creating an Artifical Problem ("The Corporate Fascistoids have taken over the Internet!!!!!")
2. Offering the Solution ("More Regulations! More control!")

1. The Corporate Fascists ARE actually trying their best to take control over the Internet! in every way they can!

And it's they who want to create an artificial scarcity model to control access of information - not the people, not the other way around

2. Wrong! It's just so damn sad to see all these incorrect statements from you!

The solution is for the people to to say to these fascistoid Corporations - you can't just have this sort of Fascism implemented! - our societies don't accept that you turn the free Internet into your twisted vision and model of Net Fascism 2.0 at the expense of the people, the freedom of the Internet and the free word! - keep your hands off the Internet, or work with your Corporations inside those frames & rules which are already existing for the Internet and the current market economy.

I find it very amusing that you're are trying to tell me about what Net Neutrality is all about and what it is standing for! - when you got everythings backwards.

I have actually met some of these people - and I know what some of them have in their minds - I know what they wish for - things which they're secretly working with behind our backs, trying to implement together with certain politicians!

And I know that some of their agenda for control is not only related to just business - heck, they are making most of their money on other better things than the Internet.

I seriously feel so sorry for the naive ones

You can believe whatever you want if that is making you happy - I'm out of this ignorant delusional discussion.

Corporatocracy, in social theories that focus on conflicts and opposing interests within society, denotes a system of government that serves the interest of, and may de facto be run by, corporations and involves ties between government and business. where corporations, conglomerates, and/or government entities with private components, control the direction and governance of a country, including carrying out economic planning notwithstanding the 'free market' label.

en.wikipedia.org...


[edit on 8-9-2010 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by Chevalerous


Seriously... If you haven't received it already, I think an applause is in order for your post.

And what you described is EXACTLY what's happening!

Right-wing qausi-fascists are taking right-wing peasants along for a ride. Most average American right-wingers don't know much about left-wing history... and the puppet-masters of the right-wing are USING and PERVERTING left-wing language, history, causes, and figures to their own ends. Glenn Beck is OUT IN THE OPEN ABOUT IT! He's using words that left-wing revolutionaries have used, claiming he's just like MLK, and then using LIES and PROPAGANDA to lambast communism, socialism, liberalism and anarchism... and then has the nerve to LUMP them all together as the same thing, even with FASCISM which is an undeniably RIGHT-WING ideology! And the MORONS are lapping it up, thinking they're part of a resistance movement when it's quite obviously a front for the same old corporatist crap. Those behind the tea-party, those who fund it, direct it, and put together rallies are RICH CORPORATIST, NEO-CON, NEO-LIB, QUASI-FASCIST ELITES, and WE ALL must unite against them. I just read an article by an uber-rich right-winger who's basically been funding the right-wing that he believes the tea-partiers who are fighting universal healthcare are just like the anti-war protesters of the 60's... It's disgusting and completely false the arguments/rhetoric the elite right-wing puts forth. I almost can't believe what they're doing and the success they're having with it. When will it stop? It must. All options must be on the table to counter a new breed of Fascism. Sarkozy's kicking the gypsies out of France. People seem to forget that you don't need to wave a swastika on your flag to be a fascist...

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by NoHierarchy

 

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Wake up- it's time to move beyond the systems that fail us instead of trying to hammer out and polish a defective machine.

Ya but what would you replace it with? Care to share that with us? And how will net neutrality be protected under your new system?

What would I replace it with? Well there are a whole myriad of alternatives to our society. I can't claim to have the one single answer because I believe there is no ONE single answer. A few alternatives would be expanding open-source, legal piracy, civilian control of the airwaves/internet, free/open access to everything, cooperatives, participatory economics, anarcho-socialism/syndicalism/primitivism, minarchism, permaculture, rewilding, creative commons, sustainable living, egalitarianism, tribalism, etc.

Net neutrality would be protected in such a world because no one centralized company or government would have control/dictation over it.

With government mandated net neutrality, it's essentially one GOOD thing a government can do that protects citizens' rights and limits the rights of non-human state/economic entities. Net Neutrality is a healthy form of checks and balances between economic powers and government powers. It's best when they fight/castrate each other rather than strangle the citizenry. Without net neutrality, an arbitrary system would emerge that would dictate the flow of content/information/free speech/free access according to whatever the ISPs want... so if they want to restrict data/webpages for profit, political purposes, or competition purposes they'll be able to and we as citizens/consumers will have very little/illusory recourse against it. Their little market games are much less important than the right of humans to access information freely without having to worry about ANYBODY censoring it for ANY reason. There is NO reasonable or constitutional excuse to eliminate net neutrality, it's simply pushed by wealthy organizations that want more power and wealth; put simply- it's greed/propaganda disguised as its opposite. A lack of net neutrality may and will amount to CORPORATE censorship of information. We cannot give monopolies of power to dangerous entities that already enjoy a huge monopoly of wealth/power/control of the internet.

I just read this astounding expose of the Koch brothers - more than worthy of ATS conspiracy status - who have spent decades re-defining libertarianism as corporatism, and funding think tanks, policy "institutes" and "grass-roots" movements to support their agenda.

It really is a MUST read - helps bring so much about this so-called debate into focus.

Covert Operations

The Kochs are longtime libertarians who believe in drastically lower personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry—especially environmental regulation. These views dovetail with the brothers’ corporate interests. In a study released this spring, the University of Massachusetts at Amherst’s Political Economy Research Institute named Koch Industries one of the top ten air polluters in the United States. And Greenpeace issued a report identifying the company as a “kingpin of climate science denial.” The report showed that, from 2005 to 2008, the Kochs vastly outdid ExxonMobil in giving money to organizations fighting legislation related to climate change, underwriting a huge network of foundations, think tanks, and political front groups. Indeed, the brothers have funded opposition campaigns against so many Obama Administration policies—from health-care reform to the economic-stimulus program—that, in political circles, their ideological network is known as the Kochtopus.