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posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 09:55 PM
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reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Originally posted by NoHierarchy
What would I replace it with? Well there are a whole myriad of alternatives to our society. I can't claim to have the one single answer because I believe there is no ONE single answer. A few alternatives would be expanding open-source, legal piracy, civilian control of the airwaves/internet, free/open access to everything, cooperatives, participatory economics, anarcho-socialism/syndicalism/primitivism, minarchism, permaculture, rewilding, creative commons, sustainable living, egalitarianism, tribalism, etc.


You can't be serious. You are esentially describing a failed Communist State.



Conservatism: Russell Kirk
The twentieth century’s leading American conservative author was Russell Kirk (1918-1994). Although Kirk was a frequent critic of Rand and Rothbard, his critique of egalitarianism was similar. In one of his later essays, Kirk rejects the concept of “equality of condition” by which he means the “equality of incomes and other awards.” (Kirk does not reject the idea that people should be equal before the law.) [Kirk, Redeeming the Time, p. 217.] He states:

In short, I have been arguing that it is profoundly unjust to endeavor to transform society into a table land of equality. It would be unjust to the energetic, reduced to equality with the clack and indolent; it would be unjust to the thrift, compelled to make up losses of the profligate; it would be unjust to those take the long view, forced to submit to the domination of a majority interested chiefly in short-run results. [Id., p. 225.]

According to Kirk, the drive for equality has resulted in high taxation, a decline in educational standards, and multiculturalism.



rebirthofreason.com...




posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 10:19 PM
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reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth
 


Seems clear to me (now) that you're promoting Koch-brand corporatocracy, masquerading as libertarianism.

imo - Libertarianism is NOT corporatocracy.

You really need to read the whole article here:

Koch-brand Corporatocracy is NOT Libertarianism



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow
I just read this astounding expose of the Koch brothers - more than worthy of ATS conspiracy status - who have spent decades re-defining libertarianism as corporatism, and funding think tanks, policy "institutes" and "grass-roots" movements to support their agenda.

It really is a MUST read - helps bring so much about this so-called debate into focus.

Covert Operations

The Kochs are longtime libertarians who believe in drastically lower personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry—especially environmental regulation. These views dovetail with the brothers’ corporate interests. In a study released this spring, the University of Massachusetts at Amherst’s Political Economy Research Institute named Koch Industries one of the top ten air polluters in the United States. And Greenpeace issued a report identifying the company as a “kingpin of climate science denial.” The report showed that, from 2005 to 2008, the Kochs vastly outdid ExxonMobil in giving money to organizations fighting legislation related to climate change, underwriting a huge network of foundations, think tanks, and political front groups. Indeed, the brothers have funded opposition campaigns against so many Obama Administration policies—from health-care reform to the economic-stimulus program—that, in political circles, their ideological network is known as the Kochtopus.








Oh god yes.

The Koch's have their slimy fascist hands in EVERYTHING!

Just check THESE out...


A PEOPLE’S HISTORY OF KOCH INDUSTRIES: HOW STALIN FUNDED THE TEA PARTY MOVEMENT


Koch Industries denies funding tea parties, but official filings say otherwise


Koch Industries: Secretly Funding the Climate Denial Machine


SourceWatch: Koch Industries


SourceWatch: Americans for Prosperity



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Originally posted by NoHierarchy
What would I replace it with? Well there are a whole myriad of alternatives to our society. I can't claim to have the one single answer because I believe there is no ONE single answer. A few alternatives would be expanding open-source, legal piracy, civilian control of the airwaves/internet, free/open access to everything, cooperatives, participatory economics, anarcho-socialism/syndicalism/primitivism, minarchism, permaculture, rewilding, creative commons, sustainable living, egalitarianism, tribalism, etc.


You can't be serious. You are esentially describing a failed Communist State.



Conservatism: Russell Kirk
The twentieth century’s leading American conservative author was Russell Kirk (1918-1994). Although Kirk was a frequent critic of Rand and Rothbard, his critique of egalitarianism was similar. In one of his later essays, Kirk rejects the concept of “equality of condition” by which he means the “equality of incomes and other awards.” (Kirk does not reject the idea that people should be equal before the law.) [Kirk, Redeeming the Time, p. 217.] He states:

In short, I have been arguing that it is profoundly unjust to endeavor to transform society into a table land of equality. It would be unjust to the energetic, reduced to equality with the clack and indolent; it would be unjust to the thrift, compelled to make up losses of the profligate; it would be unjust to those take the long view, forced to submit to the domination of a majority interested chiefly in short-run results. [Id., p. 225.]

According to Kirk, the drive for equality has resulted in high taxation, a decline in educational standards, and multiculturalism.



rebirthofreason.com...


Kirk shows a serious ignorance of collectivism and egalitarianism. Plain and simple.

Communism is a very specific ideology with in-practice tendencies towards an authoritarian state.

I'm talking about a STATELESS society which embraces equal human social/economic organization where nobody is boss and nobody is slave, nobody is far richer than a bunch of working poor. There is absolutely no way you can justify the wealth gap/stratification we see in this world. There is also no way to ultimately justify the power gap between the populace and elites. Collectivism/egalitarianism was developed BEFORE state societies and BEFORE massive centralized economies. It's a very basic term, like evolution is, but has been perverted by propagandists to mean all these other things. Essentially, most of the time, those who argue against evolution or collectivism are so bound by externalities/dogma that they fail to see the simplicity (and inherent difference) in the concepts they argue against. Thus a series of ideological/philosophical straw-man arguments follows in which the denier makes up his/her own rules, definitions, and interpretations and then knocks them down as if in victory. However, humans have ALWAYS assembled themselves into collectives, as have other animals, and for MOST of human history these were leaderless, egalitarian, and equal societies that worked quite well and without rampant tyranny.

Do not equate things that do not equate. Using non-sequitur to label collectivists/egalitarians as commies is childish and unscientific. Communism may INCLUDE a form of collectivism, but that doesn't then mean that all other collectivist systems are Communist. Also keep in mind that individualism and collectivism can, should and always have gone hand in hand to varying extents. A purity of either is impossible. Cool?



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 10:47 PM
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reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Thank you - will get to those links. Promise. :p



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 04:37 PM
link   

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by soficrow

Covert Operations


Oh god yes.

The Koch's have their slimy fascist hands in EVERYTHING!

Just check THESE out...


A PEOPLE’S HISTORY OF KOCH INDUSTRIES: HOW STALIN FUNDED THE TEA PARTY MOVEMENT


Koch Industries denies funding tea parties, but official filings say otherwise


Koch Industries: Secretly Funding the Climate Denial Machine
SourceWatch: Koch Industries
SourceWatch: Americans for Prosperity


Then there's the Koch family's communications and media arm...

From Koch Industries to the Social Media Business Council - Interactive Advertising Bureau - ……..Alltop Social Media to Alltop, HOLY KAW! and the

TA DA!!!!!!!!

RightNetwork



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Look, I'm getting up there in age, but I'm still relatively young. I've worked my butt off to get to the point where I'm at today. I'm still poor by anybody's standards, in many respects. But I am poised to start another sub chapter S Corporation that will allow me to work even harder to finally make enough money to actually take a vacation if I wanted too.

Am I evil because I want to work and make an honest living? What do you have against rich people and Corporations? If it weren't for rich people and Corporations, I wouldn't be in a position to be able to earn any kind of descent money. Why do you want to tear everything down?

You seem like a smart guy. Why don't to direct your talent towards making a living doing what you really want to do. What do you want from me? 90% of my income? I am the one who wants to work, take the risks, and reap the rewards. You should really take a closer look at yourself.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Look, I'm getting up there in age, but I'm still relatively young. I've worked my butt off to get to the point where I'm at today. I'm still poor by anybody's standards, in many respects. But I am poised to start another sub chapter S Corporation that will allow me to work even harder to finally make enough money to actually take a vacation if I wanted too.

Am I evil because I want to work and make an honest living? What do you have against rich people and Corporations? If it weren't for rich people and Corporations, I wouldn't be in a position to be able to earn any kind of descent money. Why do you want to tear everything down?

You seem like a smart guy. Why don't to direct your talent towards making a living doing what you really want to do. What do you want from me? 90% of my income? I am the one who wants to work, take the risks, and reap the rewards. You should really take a closer look at yourself.



You're asking the wrong questions, man. I don't blame people for wanting to make a decent living, I don't blame people for wanting to be rich, I don't blame people for enjoying being rich. HOWEVER, I do blame a system for only allowing a SMALL number of people into the good old boys club. I DO blame a society which rewards people most for random/arbitrary reasons and leaves people in the dust who are hard working, intelligent, ethical/moral, and honest. I see a society where PLENTY of people work their ASSES off day in and day out only to have their pensions stripped from them by companies/CEOs who'd rather not shave their own bonus packages, these people have their homes taken away by banks, their rights/dignity taken away by employers, government and police, people are then fed all this self-help BS that essentially tells them to stop whining about it, that their problems are either an illusion or that they brought it upon themselves. I DONT BUY THAT SNAKE OIL. There is a seriously DISGUSTING culture in this country of blaming the victim for their troubles, especially economic ones. However, we're no different than at any other time in civilization's history- there is only room for a few at the top, the rest of society must labor and slave away to serve the desires of the few at the top. I see a society where the wealth, privileges, and enjoyment of a few are taken from the backs of the many. I see a society where the many are penalized for being poor, where cops bust poor peoples' chops and protect the property/safety/peace of the rich far more than the poor. I see rampant nationalism and militarism. I see a world that is being decimated ecologically by our lifestyles, habits, and consumption. I see a society of top-down tyranny, no matter how much or little, where authority figures reign no matter if they or their actions are illegitimate. I see a society where EVEN PEOPLE who walk the straight and narrow don't GET that benefit of the doubt from the system and are told to just suck it up, take their licks and follow the rules when they get screwed over.... better luck next time. I see a society where, despite its wonders, marvels, and benefits, is still increasingly about choosing the lesser evil. Most of all... we're living unsustainably. It tears me up to think about how many species we're destroying, how many ANCIENT habitats we're leveling so that we can play f*cking video games, drive to crap jobs, watch sports on giant tvs, wipe our asses with old-growth forests, wage large-scale wars, build endless expanses of commercial/industrial parks, suburban housing developments, roads, the list goes on. It tears me up to think of how many hundreds or thousands of ancient cultures have been killed off and destroyed forever in the name of conquest, whether it was for land, resources, religion, domination, racism, manifest destiny... I've woken up to it and there's no way I can shrug it off.

We live in a society of a MASSIVE CON-JOB. Right now, average (and I'm sorry to say- politically clueless) citizens are being whipped up into a frenzy on the right-wing, being propagandized and fed disinformation about immigrants, freedom, Muslims, healthcare, regulations, and so on by rich elites who have been CONTROLLING the game all along. I see ONE tyrannical entity (Capitalism) trying to paint itself as a freedom movement (when it's NOT) and perverting Libertarianism (which was originally left-wing Anarchism) to enact de-regulation for their businesses. Since they already have the power/wealth/monopoly on markets and our government, de-regulation will only seal our fate into a quasi-fascist plutocracy. I'm pissed off and lost and I'm trying to find my way out, man. I personally WANT to make a decent living. I'm young and I am having a really tough time trying to figure out just how the f*ck to live a life of morals/ethics while ALSO making a good living and NOT destroying the environment. That doesn't leave me with any obvious options, at least not easy options. In fact, it's going to be harder for me to make a living with such constraints because I want to do it ethically/conscientiously AND while we're facing economic downturns (and possibly collapse). And no I will NOT blame myself for that... of course I'm not going to surrender and take no for an answer, I have and will work hard and persistently to gain success in my life, but I'm not going to pretend for one second that there aren't SERIOUS flaws in the system which actually do impede my progress and may even prevent it altogether, it happens to so many people. For every success story there are a thousand failure stories.

Bottom line is- the people don't HAVE to be evil in a system which is already evil itself. All people have to do is participate and they're already sold into the game. And that's what we've got... a giant game, a very dangerous one, and it's not making people (or ecosystems) all that happy. I don't have all the answers... we may be screwed for all I know. BUT I won't stop talking to people about it. I want more people to be aware, I've seen people wake up and become more conscientious. I believe change is inevitable so we might as well make it the best changes possible and not leave it to chance or momentum.

Sorry... I went off on a tangent... but I felt I needed to more deeply explain where I'm comin from.



posted on Sep, 10 2010 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Right now, average (and I'm sorry to say- politically clueless) citizens are being whipped up into a frenzy on the right-wing, being propagandized and fed disinformation about immigrants, freedom, Muslims, healthcare, regulations, and so on by rich elites who have been CONTROLLING the game all along. I see ONE tyrannical entity (Capitalism) trying to paint itself as a freedom movement (when it's NOT) and perverting Libertarianism (which was originally left-wing Anarchism) to enact de-regulation for their businesses. Since they already have the power/wealth/monopoly on markets and our government, de-regulation will only seal our fate into a quasi-fascist plutocracy. I'm pissed off and lost and I'm trying to find my way out, man. I personally WANT to make a decent living. I'm young and I am having a really tough time trying to figure out just how the f*ck to live a life of morals/ethics while ALSO making a good living and NOT destroying the environment.


Hey dude, you need to calm down and reevaluate the facts. You said people are being fed disinformation about illegals. I doubt if the people in Arizona who live in Phoenix and are afraid to walk down their own streets after dark would appreciate the propaganda you are peddling. As far as Muslims are concerned, Islam is just as much about politics as it is about religion. And the politics of Islam is world domination.

The Obama Health care Package is going to bankrupt the country. The numbers just don't add up and the number of people who will abuse the system will only continue to rise. And if you think the right wing is whipping everybody into a frenzy, you better guess again. The left traditionally turns people against the rich because it is easy to blame other people for ones own shortcomings. This is a very hypocritical strategy the Dem's are undertaking when you take into consideration the fact that there are more rich Democrats in Congress than there are Republicans....lol. I see they have sucked you in too my friend.

news.yahoo.com...

Capitalism is the only thing that will enable us to be free. If Capitalism fails the way Communism did, the world will recede back into a dark age. Don't blame Capitalism for your own personal failures. You are obviously an economic looser and you want to make everybody else just as miserable as you are. You are a coward sir. No snake oil here! The truth is, you want to dismantle the free enterprise system and essentially cause mass economic slavery because you are either too stupid or too lazy to go out and make your own way. Don't drag the rest of us down because of your own personal failures. Grab the bull by the horns and run with it!

Quit being taken in by this Communist Progressive crap that you've been peddling. Progressives are Communists in disguise. They are treasonous and have no business being allowed to even exist in the United States. They should all be arrested and thrown in jail where they belong. They have ruined the nation and they will not quit until they have pushed this country over the edge.

Wake up before it's too late. Get up, get out and make your own way. Stop whining and espousing these dangerous ideas. And don't freak out about the environment. The planet is doing just fine. Al Gore would have you believe otherwise. He is the one making millions and millions of dollars off of this global warming nonsense! He belongs in prison for deceiving the masses with his political junk science. Don't be on the wrong side when the country comes to its senses. It will not be very forgiving!

You can have the last word as usual. I don't ever expect to be able to post a final reply. So have at it, I've said my peace. If I had it my way, you would be serving a life sentence for treason. Some day some lawmaker will seek the death penalty against Communists like you. You guys are shamelessly taking this country down the road to hell. I have no sympathy for guys like you, and you should be geting everything that will be comming to you, hopefully, one of these days soon.

And keep your hands off of the Internet, it's doing just fine without your dirty little fingers all over it!

Peace.



posted on Sep, 10 2010 @ 08:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Right now, average (and I'm sorry to say- politically clueless) citizens are being whipped up into a frenzy on the right-wing, being propagandized and fed disinformation about immigrants, freedom, Muslims, healthcare, regulations, and so on by rich elites who have been CONTROLLING the game all along. I see ONE tyrannical entity (Capitalism) trying to paint itself as a freedom movement (when it's NOT) and perverting Libertarianism (which was originally left-wing Anarchism) to enact de-regulation for their businesses. Since they already have the power/wealth/monopoly on markets and our government, de-regulation will only seal our fate into a quasi-fascist plutocracy. I'm pissed off and lost and I'm trying to find my way out, man. I personally WANT to make a decent living. I'm young and I am having a really tough time trying to figure out just how the f*ck to live a life of morals/ethics while ALSO making a good living and NOT destroying the environment.


Hey dude, you need to calm down and reevaluate the facts. You said people are being fed disinformation about illegals. I doubt if the people in Arizona who live in Phoenix and are afraid to walk down their own streets after dark would appreciate the propaganda you are peddling. As far as Muslims are concerned, Islam is just as much about politics as it is about religion. And the politics of Islam is world domination.

The Obama Health care Package is going to bankrupt the country. The numbers just don't add up and the number of people who will abuse the system will only continue to rise. And if you think the right wing is whipping everybody into a frenzy, you better guess again. The left traditionally turns people against the rich because it is easy to blame other people for ones own shortcomings. This is a very hypocritical strategy the Dem's are undertaking when you take into consideration the fact that there are more rich Democrats in Congress than there are Republicans....lol. I see they have sucked you in too my friend.

news.yahoo.com...

Capitalism is the only thing that will enable us to be free. If Capitalism fails the way Communism did, the world will recede back into a dark age. Don't blame Capitalism for your own personal failures. You are obviously an economic looser and you want to make everybody else just as miserable as you are. You are a coward sir. No snake oil here! The truth is, you want to dismantle the free enterprise system and essentially cause mass economic slavery because you are either too stupid or too lazy to go out and make your own way. Don't drag the rest of us down because of your own personal failures. Grab the bull by the horns and run with it!

Quit being taken in by this Communist Progressive crap that you've been peddling. Progressives are Communists in disguise. They are treasonous and have no business being allowed to even exist in the United States. They should all be arrested and thrown in jail where they belong. They have ruined the nation and they will not quit until they have pushed this country over the edge.

Wake up before it's too late. Get up, get out and make your own way. Stop whining and espousing these dangerous ideas. And don't freak out about the environment. The planet is doing just fine. Al Gore would have you believe otherwise. He is the one making millions and millions of dollars off of this global warming nonsense! He belongs in prison for deceiving the masses with his political junk science. Don't be on the wrong side when the country comes to its senses. It will not be very forgiving!

You can have the last word as usual. I don't ever expect to be able to post a final reply. So have at it, I've said my peace. If I had it my way, you would be serving a life sentence for treason. Some day some lawmaker will seek the death penalty against Communists like you. You guys are shamelessly taking this country down the road to hell. I have no sympathy for guys like you, and you should be geting everything that will be comming to you, hopefully, one of these days soon.

And keep your hands off of the Internet, it's doing just fine without your dirty little fingers all over it!

Peace.





I feel I need to be blunt/brief/rude here-

You are a complete idiot and a closet fascist. And I mean those words very literally.

edit on 10-9-2010 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 10 2010 @ 10:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
response to MY2Commoncentsworth

I feel I need to be blunt/brief/rude here-

You are a complete idiot and a closet fascist. And I mean those words very literally.



You have been admirably civil throughout, NoHierarchy.

In a nutshell, this guy peddles hate, says democracy isn't working, doesn't work, can't work. In other words, WE aren't doing a good job. His solution? Hand it over to the "professionals." The corporations. Let them take the reins.

'Course we'll have to kiss our votes goodbye, and give up all our rights and freedoms. But hey, it's the new "Right" way. Get with the program.




edit on 10-9-2010 by soficrow because: (no reason given)





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