Morals and Dogma excerpt from 3� - Master

I also have just started reading M&D. it is a facinating read. so much information
to take in. it is a great "bedtime read" there is so much info after a short time
i go into brain fade and have to stop and close my eyes. I will finish it though.
I got a copy from my local library. I have a copy that TD sent on my computer
but cant sit here long enough to do it justice.

as others have said here I do believe i will be reading this book many times over the years.

Thanks again TD for the copy.

One thing I would like to point out (well, OK, TWO things) when reading Morals & Dogma (one of my favorite Masonic books) In the Preface two portions stand out.

1: "In preparing this work, the Grand Commander (Pike) has been about equally Author and Compiler; since he has extracted quite half its contents from the works of the best writers and most philosophic or eloquent thinkers. Perhaps it would have been better and more acceptable if he had extracted more and written less."

Pike isn't careful to deliniate where his writing stops and the writings of others starts. (Sometimes he does, but not always) and he doesn't use footnotes. Many things written by others have been misconstrued by Anti-Masons through the years and stated as Pike's work....when they aren't his words at all and are taken completely out of the context in which Pike used them.

Just for your consideration and to make reading it a bit easier.

The second point made in the Preface is, in my opinion, the most important in the ENTIRE book and is OFTEN overlooked by Anti-Masons.

2: "Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound. It is only required of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgement.

..now I wonder why Anti-Masons overlook THAT so often?


Oh, I'm not sure if this appears in the electronic version or not, but for reference purposes, in the printed volume numbers 1 and 2 above are found on pages iii and iv respectively. M&D was printed from the same plates throughout the years so the page numbers remain the same. In the 1909 T.W. Hugo (33d Grand Cross) compiled an Index that was added to later editions.

Anyone wanting their own copy can find TONS of 'em at Advanced Book Exchange. I wouldn't pay more than $15 or $20 for one though...they're really very common. If you can find one with a Purple binding and gilt edges they're VERY rare first editions and getting extremely hard to come by.

[edit on 7-9-2004 by senrak]

Its more than laughable that someone who has only read the first 100 pages of Morals and Dogma speaks of people taking the book out of context.

I sugest reading ahead from 28th degree and then starting again from the beginning - you will also benefit from making yourself aware of the index and cross referencing the various passages in the book which pertain to the same elements.
This is a retorical work - like a text-book it is not intended to be read from front to back, anyone that does such is wasting their time.

The principle that you are free to accept or reject the writing is key to the overall principle of Freemasonry - do not try to educate, just let the stupid believe they are smart, they are easier to control that way.

While not a Mason yet, I have read Morals and Dogma to completion and I have no doubt that any anti-Mason that wishes to seriously debate this work with me will definitely lose the debate. I expect you to make some point in your post as to why Masonry bad by citing relevant quotations from M&D, I will not answer stupid questions from those that have read less than 100 words of M&D.

No chumps need apply, as I will give chumps the attention deserved, none.
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Mr Necross has an attitude and a very negative one concerning Freemasonry. He ls always looking for the bad things in Freemasonry. In his eyes nothing is good. The Freemasons are bad men at worst or at best, good men who are being fooled by evil men into believing that Freemasonry is organisation that benefits the whole community. At every opportunity he ridicules this organisation and its members. In his opinion we are either evil men or men who are being controlled by evil men.

In Freemasonry there is no one single man that is in charge of this society. There is no 'Bible' of Freemasonry and no 'Pope'. Freemasonry has its own leaders in each and every country where it is allowed to exist. In countries where the people are controlled by despotic regimes it is not allowed to exist. It is only in the free countries of the World like the Western World where Freemasons are not persecuted and given the same rights as any other group to exist.

It is becoming obvious that Mr Necross hates Freemasonry without any obvious reason. I thing that he needs to seek help to find out why he has this problem. In my opinion he is a 'Troll King' and contributes nothing positive to this debate. He does encourage some non Freemasons to find out what Freemasonry is actually about and he should be thanked for doing this.

Gerard

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Its more than laughable that someone who has only read the first 100 pages of Morals and Dogma speaks of people taking the book out of context.

I sugest reading ahead from 28th degree and then starting again from the beginning - you will also benefit from making yourself aware of the index and cross referencing the various passages in the book which pertain to the same elements.
This is a retorical work - like a text-book it is not intended to be read from front to back, anyone that does such is wasting their time.

The principle that you are free to accept or reject the writing is key to the overall principle of Freemasonry - do not try to educate, just let the stupid believe they are smart, they are easier to control that way.

thanks for the advice, necros... I have read it twice, and am working on the third go through now. I find nothing sinister in Chapter 28, nor in any other. In fact, just so everyone can know what you are on about, below is a link TO Chapter 28, as opposed to copying and pasting it here.

Thanks Necros, for reminding me... I really enjoyed that chapter again.

Originally posted by theron dunn

Thanks Necros, for reminding me... I really enjoyed that chapter again.

It's also, perhaps, my favorite. Chapter 28 is the Lecture to the 28�, technically called "Prince Adept". It should be read in conjunction the the Legenda of the 28� (also written by Pike), which contain the orations of Father Adam and Brother Truth, the two principle officers of the degree.

This degree is often called the "Kabbalistic Degree" of the Scottish Rite, as the entire degree ceremony is based on Kabalistic speculation. I would only suggest, to those new to the Kabalah, that they disregard Pike's version of the Tree of Life given on page 770 of Morals and Dogma. Even though, technically, the Sephiroth are arranged correctly, the Golden Dawn model is much more user-friendly.

Fiat Lvx.

Not quite sure what the whole "Wow, Pike is such a genius" thing is about - to be honest McClenechan is much more concise.
What is sinister about trhe 28th Degree?
Well pretty much all of it really.
If you've read it then you should understand the Masonic principle of "Universal Religion" and the belief that the world has always been controlled by sneaky people who were knowledgeable about the "one true god" but keeping everyone ignorant about it to protect them from the burden of truth.
But the reason I say read from the 28th degree onwards is because these are the more transparent of all the degrees, the closer you get to the end of the rite the less BS is in the rituals with the 31st and 32nd providing a clear and concise revision of the whole rite.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by MrNECROS]

Originally posted by MrNECROS "Universal Religion"

It has been my belief that religion is universal long before ever reading anything by Albert Pike or about Freemasonry. In "Morals and Dogma", Pike makes a brilliant case in support of this thesis. God is God, regardless of how the various religions of men choose to paint God or choose to speak for God. Freemasonry recognizes this basic fact to be true and is tolerant of how the various religions express their recognition of God.

The dispute with Freemasonry arises because the men of certain religions wish to impose a particular method of recognizing God on everybody which has nothing to do with God and everything to do with men desiring to impose their belief on others in order to vest power in themselves. I have no doubt that such men are the false prophets spoken of in the bible.
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DF1,

Well written

Actually my problem with Freemasonry arose from being drugged senseless and having a bunch of neo-pagan new age loonies try to brainwash me then get all upset because I politely and firmly said no (at least 3 times I believe I actually said �I do not want to become a Freemason.�)
Pretty much everything else is just observations of the last 3 years of my life.

Not quite sure what the round of applause for stating "of course religion is universal" is about, just the usual noise to try to drown out rational debate.

It's Freemasonry's interpretation of religion that is skewed, by selecting points that fit its own model and arrogantly refusing to accept anything doesn't, from various religions it deliberately creates the illusion of a new super-religion where there is no right or wrong, just a constantly juxtaposed state of opposites.
It�s the only religion I know of that actually believes that lying, cheating and stealing is not only OK, but a necessary and justified component of �leadership� so long as it is used in moderation and for the benefit of ones �fellows.�

This is why their religion has to be kept secret, not because there are evil �Anti-Masons� lurking around who want to misinterpret it and destroy it, or because it contains powerful and dangerous methodologies and ideals, its because it�s the original cult scam, ah-lah the Bagwan Sri Rashnishi and his �Orange People.�
If people were allowed to question Masonic beliefs it would quickly become apparent that it has more holes than Swiss cheese and contains no great moral teachings at all, just a lot of idol worship, pomp and ceremony.

Its hard to believe the long term Masonic posters in this forum haven�t actually sat down and read Morals and Dogma, admittedly 800 odd pages of social, political and religious rhetoric is not exactly the sort of stuff most sane people would want to read, but what really amazes me is how many people I see posting to this forum who clearly haven�t actually read it trying to say they have.
(Wow it�s amazing � makes me feel all warm and fuzzy�golly gee�such an amazing guy etc�)

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Actually my problem with Freemasonry arose from being drugged senseless and having a bunch of neo-pagan new age loonies try to brainwash me then get all upset because I politely and firmly said no (at least 3 times I believe I actually said �I do not want to become a Freemason.�)

The reason you gave weeks ago is that you did not want to join a "higher lodge." Give the story-telling a rest, Necros, no one believed your fairy-tale about being "drugged senseless."

On cross-examination, you folded faster than Superman on laundry day. You didn't care enough to provide distinct examples and timelines to support your case, but you sure took the time to slander the Masons and bascially embarrass yourself to no end.

Apparently, those "loonies" you speak of weren't even Freemasons, at least according to someone on these boards who HAS NOT dispensed completely with rational thought.

Your claim that they pursued you over several contries and even onto a new continent, is equally fallacious and laughable.

You can argue Morals & Dogma, though. You seem to like that, and reading is good for you, too. Just leave the utter falsehoods you spread about your own life out of the picture.

[edit on 13-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Its hard to believe the long term Masonic posters in this forum haven�t actually sat down and read Morals and Dogma.

I would love to see a debate of Morals and Dogma, but all I have seen so far from the detractors of Masonry are a repetition of misquotes and the out of context distortion of Pike's words. I look forward to you elevating the level of discussion, but I am not hopeful.
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
Actually my problem with Freemasonry arose from being drugged senseless and having a bunch of neo-pagan new age loonies try to brainwash me then get all upset because I politely and firmly said no (at least 3 times I believe I actually said �I do not want to become a Freemason.�) Pretty much everything else is just observations of the last 3 years of my life.

You know, I find this claim pretty interesting, for several reasons, not the least of which is your earlier post where you said it was the Rosicrucians that tried to brainwash you and force you into joining.

Another reason, and this one is much more practical and easier to prove, Masonry does not want any man unless he comes to us to join. WHY IN G-D'S name would we want member that does not want to be in the fraternity??? Further, it is the stated intention and practice of all lodges not to even ASK someone to join.

Therefore I am left with only two possible conclusions, neither of which is pretty. One is that you are a liar, and second is that you are mentally deranged, possibly schisophrenic and dellusional, for your stories change over timie... but hey, it really doesn't matter to me which you are, since masonry does not recruit, nor use drugs, nor attempt force.

Not quite sure what the round of applause for stating "of course religion is universal" is about, just the usual noise to try to drown out rational debate.

Ok.

It's Freemasonry's interpretation of religion that is skewed, by selecting points that fit its own model and arrogantly refusing to accept anything doesn't, from various religions it deliberately creates the illusion of a new super-religion where there is no right or wrong, just a constantly juxtaposed state of opposites.

Well, since masonry is not a religion, and accepts men of all faiths, your position is hardly tenable or proveable. As for deliberately creating an illuion of a super religion, well, that is patently false, as masonry does not offer ANY theology, so...

It�s the only religion I know of that actually believes that lying, cheating and stealing is not only OK, but a necessary and justified component of �leadership� so long as it is used in moderation and for the benefit of ones �fellows.�

Well, I find this an interesting assertion, but NONE of what you posit is true. Masonry insists on honesty, and that cheating, wronging or defrauding is actually unmasonic behavior, but I would be very interested in seeing any proof you may have of this contention... you know, verifiable FACTS...

This is why their religion has to be kept secret, not because there are evil �Anti-Masons� lurking around who want to misinterpret it and destroy it, or because it contains powerful and dangerous methodologies and ideals, its because it�s the original cult scam, ah-lah the Bagwan Sri Rashnishi and his �Orange People.�

Huh? there is NO masonic religion, as over 5 million masons will attest... Masonry is a fraternity, so this whole cult/scam/Orange People(??) rap is a nonsequiteur... or, perhaps you could provide FACTS to back up your assertion? Not opinions, mind you, but verifiable facts? Thanks.

If people were allowed to question Masonic beliefs it would quickly become apparent that it has more holes than Swiss cheese and contains no great moral teachings at all, just a lot of idol worship, pomp and ceremony.

Well, you are questioning it, and there are no holes... there are no idols in freemasonry, no worship at the lodges, we are not a church, offer no relgious theology, teach no method for approaching or worshipping g-d, nor offer a special, different "masonic" g-d... as for moral teachings, I would disagree with you on that, as masonry does teach honorable, moral, upright behaviors, though, of course, since you are making wild and untenable accusations, I would be very interested in seeing any proof you have of your contentions.

You see, it always comes back to the same thing... proof. Your word, alone, unsupported is not worth a bucket of cold spit, especially when you are talking about a group you are not a member of and have no proof of evil against...

Its hard to believe the long term Masonic posters in this forum haven�t actually sat down and read Morals and Dogma, admittedly 800 odd pages of social, political and religious rhetoric is not exactly the sort of stuff most sane people would want to read, but what really amazes me is how many people I see posting to this forum who clearly haven�t actually read it trying to say they have.

Actually, many have read M&D, and have said so in writing... I have enjoyed it twice and am working on it for the third time through. So, I am amused that you are calling us liars when we say we have read it... perhaps YOU are a liar about having read it... you seem pretty confused about what it contains. I would be very interested in seeing any proof you may have that I and others HAVEN'T read Morals and Dogma as we have stated.

It ALL comes down to proof, neo... proof. Baseless assertions are worthless, as are baseless accusations. Provide proof or go home.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Actually my problem with Freemasonry arose from being drugged senseless and having a bunch of neo-pagan new age loonies try to brainwash me then get all upset because I politely and firmly said no (at least 3 times I believe I actually said �I do not want to become a Freemason.�)
Pretty much everything else is just observations of the last 3 years of my life.

Senseless. I believe this to be a key attribute in understanding the muffled brilliance of mind which shines before us. A living example of early man in all his glory and profundity. An advanced initiate of the human condition, prostrate before us, hailing from the land of the setting sun, come to teach the limitations of the intellect on the alter of ignorance and insecurity. A pleasure to meet you cousin.

We all were in darkness at one point in our lives and comprehended not, the light. The object of every life is to rediscover the light.

Originally posted by MrNECROSNot quite sure what the round of applause for stating "of course religion is universal" is about, just the usual noise to try to drown out rational debate.

Religion is the spiritual component of light.

Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma, wroteScience, not teaching moral and spiritual truths, is dead and dry, of little more real value than to commit to memory a long row of unconnected dates or of the names of bugs or butterflies

Albert Einstein, wrote Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Light = Religion and Science in equal measure.

Originally posted by MrNECROSIt's Freemasonry's interpretation of religion that is skewed, by selecting points that fit its own model and arrogantly refusing to accept anything doesn't, from various religions it deliberately creates the illusion of a new super-religion where there is no right or wrong, just a constantly juxtaposed state of opposites.

Sorry friend, but I disagree with your assertion. It would be an honor to explore your perception, so that we both might grow in our understanding.

Originally posted by MrNECROSIt�s the only religion I know of that actually believes that lying, cheating and stealing is not only OK, but a necessary and justified component of �leadership� so long as it is used in moderation and for the benefit of ones �fellows.�

Saul of Tarsus, wrote: But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance?

Originally posted by MrNECROSThis is why their religion has to be kept secret, not because there are evil �Anti-Masons� lurking around who want to misinterpret it and destroy it, or because it contains powerful and dangerous methodologies and ideals, its because it�s the original cult scam, ah-lah the Bagwan Sri Rashnishi and his �Orange People.�

Masonry keeps nothing secret. It does, however, veil its Gnosis in symbolism and allegory. You need the light in order to see. The truth is being prostitued right before your very eyes, yet without the light you couldn't hope to see it.

Jesus, wrote: Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

What this means, quite simply, is that with great knowledge comes great responsibility. Not all are capable of interpreting the Laws of Nature [correctly], nor applying them selflessly [objectively].


peace

[edit on 25-8-2006 by lucum per lucerna]

[edit on 25-8-2006 by lucum per lucerna]

i tried reading it several times and I can't ge past the 2nd or 3rd chapter

Originally posted by corsig
i tried reading it several times and I can't ge past the 2nd or 3rd chapter

Indeed, I've found the most important lessons are contained in the first three chapters. It is a honor to be able to continually re-read them.