Memphis Christians put out welcome mat for Muslims

Very neighborly of them,

Our church did the same thing when a local mosque got firebombed just after 9-11. Our local Clergy went to the mosque leader and offered to let them use our facilitys to do their prayers, and for any meetings that they needed to hold, while their mosque was being rebuilt, we even offered to help rebuild their mosque, a lot of us actually swung the hammers and paintbrushes to help them rebuild.

These people are showing the REAL America.

[edit for studdering fingers]

[edit on 9/1/2010 by Ghost of Chewie]

Pastor Steve Stone is a hero!!!!

People like him should be lauded to the hilt with praise (this is from an agnostic).

Peace is based on trust, and he has shown it in bucketfuls

I hate to be the party pooper, and I acknowledge I am definitely nitpicking a little, but I think I still have a valid point that needs to be said. Why the part about the pastor's stomach tightening? Was this just an embellishment by the editorial staff. Possibly. Or was it put forth by the pastor himself? At least as likely if not more so. So, basically, the spiritual development of this man (if this is the case) was so low that he still naturally cringed at the thought of the "other" moving into town, but that he would suck it up and follow Jesus.

I was raised in churches of all types. And this behavior is all too common. People openly admitting that they lack spiritual development (and never seeking it as a side effect), admitting that years of prayer and study and choices have yet to change them, and that they still need to force themselves to follow Jesus' example. I don't know about you, but if you have been practicing something for years in heart, mind, and body, it becomes second nature. Natural. You don't have to still follow someone else's example. You become the example.

In this pastor's defense (if it wasn't another person who included the part about the stomach tightening), he might have achieved a certain level of spiritual development himself, all the while knowing that members of his church were bigots; therefore, he might have said this to meet them on their level. Nevertheless, I think he should have called them on their bigotry if this is the case, rather than pretending he was just as unenlightened as they happen to be.

Go ahead and flame me if you must. But the part about the stomach tightening has all sorts of ramifications, and they needed to be brought to light. I am not condemning this man, just showing something.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by orwellianunenlightenment]

Originally posted by orwellianunenlightenment
I hate to be the party pooper, and I acknowledge I am definitely nitpicking a little, but I think I still have a valid point that needs to be said. Why the part about the pastor's stomach tightening?

I don't think that is an unusual or unexpected first reaction.

What matters is the action he took - as in "What would Jesus do?"

Originally posted by Mykahel
Hmmm...

I have mixed feelings about this situation. It is good to see Christians acting as Christians in the sense that they are welcoming others and trying to show Christ's love, but something still bugs me about it.

Christians are supposed to go take the message to people, not bring people to the message (part of the reason the church is filled with so much corruption and discipline is near non-existent). I personally would be appalled at having some other religion using our building as their place of prayer. Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God, as many would try and say that they do. Christians and Muslims can work side by side, but worship is a completely different matter.

I suppose my question is if there wasn't another way to show this same love, respect and kindness. Surely something else could have been done other then letting a group of people practice a religion you believe to be false in a place designated to worship your own God.

Doubt not, this is the reason why most christians are so bashed around: INTOLERANCE AND THE FACT THEY ARE NEVER HAPPY! So, it's better not to pass the message at all than to take the message to others, yeah? I mean, I don't give a flying f about myths like your or others god, I just happen to get pissed at drooling gibberish like yours. That GROUP OF PEOPLE is no worse or better than YOUR group of people, they just happen to worship a god that is not your own, so you bash them for that. WHAT THE F*** DOES IT MATTER TO YOU IF THEY WORSHIP A CAT, A DOG OR A BABOON? As you'll say, they'll burn in hell for that, so what's it to you? I tell you this: if they would start to worship your god, you would have doubts that their worship was sincere and you'd bash them anyway, you (and by "you" I mean a [fortunately] small percentage of the so called christian comunity) are never happy at all. I am not a christian, I am nothing at all spiritual and metaphisically speaking, and yet I know some of your god's teachings: love thy neighbor, give the other cheek, treat each one as if it were your own brother. Which you FAIL TO DO LIKE A PURE PROFESSIONAL. Hypocrisy and cynicism, as usual.

reply to post by Faustian Spirit


Man, not only did you not understand the key point of my post but instantly resorted to bashing me personally and getting very obviously upset over the whole thing, and then call me a never happy hypocrite. Might want to be careful there...

All I'm saying is that if I would support or encourage the worship of something I didn't think was really a god, what does that say about my own faith in God.

You have no idea the amount of time and effort I have put into trying to relate to Muslims, including going to a mosque for one of their worship sessions and speaking with the Imam about their faith and how Muslims and Christians can work together in society. We had a good discussion, and I am not saying that the two faiths cannot coexist peacefully. I am saying that if somebody of either faith truly believes what their faith teaches, neither one would support or condone the worship of the others god. They might give them food and shelter and all sorts of things, but encourage the worship of a god they believe to be false. That doesnt sit well with me.

Seems like you've got your own self-righteous issues to deal with if you ask me. Calm down.

edit: PS: I find myself happy and full of joy in almost every occasion. In fact, I'm currently experiencing the joy of being a father to my 2 month old little girl. Again, careful with the stereotyping when you barely know a guy, or dont know them at all for that matter.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by Mykahel


As evidenced by my posts above, I am not religious.
That said, let me assure you that I, for one, see no hypocrisy in your posts.
You're holding true to the foremost tenant of your faith, the divinity of Christ.
The hypocrites are those that would put aside the fundamentals of their faith.
The cynics eye should be cast upon opposing ideologies who would join forces in an attempt to combat those perceived as moral enemies.
Is my soul in peril because I don't follow the path laid for me by Christ?
Is my soul in peril because I don't follow the path laid for me by the Koran?
Do these religions believe that God has given me a choice of paths, two means to the same end?
Is the intention of this collabrotive effort my redemption or my condemnation?

reply to post by 23refugee


Thank you. It's nice to see somebody on the forums who does not agree yet understands. This is the very foundation of constructive and civil conversation. Respect and understanding.

I'm sure the questions in the later part of your post were rhetorical, but since I've been wrong plenty before, here's my quick response.

Is my soul in peril because I don't follow the path laid for me by Christ?

I believe so, but at the same time I acknowledge God as a gracious God whom said "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." (Romans 9:15)

I cannot be sure of who will not inherit salvation, but I can be sure of who will. It will be those who call upon the name of the Lord. For those who live a good life as if they had the law but are unaware of Christ, I believe God will judge them by how they lived their lives, as we will be judged by our deeds (deeds result from faith, as faith without works is dead).

I do not believe the outcome will be so kind towards those who were aware of the truth and rejected it for something else. I do not envy God for having to be the Judge of such matters.

Is my soul in peril because I don't follow the path laid for me by the Koran?

I dont think so but any true Muslim would say yes if my understanding of the faith is even remotely accurate.

Do these religions believe that God has given me a choice of paths, two means to the same end?

Nope.
Universalists will tell you yes, and some liberal Christians and Muslims will as well in an effort to convert you by telling you we are both the same. I believe to make that statement is to denounce Christ as Savior and to reject the very foundation of the faith. The two faiths cannot be reconciled in this way. Can they live and work together? MOST DEFINITELY! But the faiths cannot intertwine and maintain their validity.

Is the intention of this collabrotive effort my redemption or my condemnation?

The intention would be your redemption, but intention does not determine results. Most people who try to convert others do it out of a longing to save one's soul. Though I admit there are plenty of preachers who convert you for the extra cash in their pockets and Imams for the extra soldier in the field. Some might have it as their goal to lead others astray, but it is my hope that the majority honestly desire to seek the conservation of your soul.

Thanks again for your post.

reply to post by Mykahel


Thank you for your kind words. I recognize and appreciate genuine concern for my spiritual well-being.
I realize that a few faiths would accept me as I am.
I've had a few more faiths condemn me.
Now I see myself being used as a focal point, one of the issues on which those of disparate religious views might find common ground.
I know they all would outlaw me.
Some might wish to deny me my rights,
some might wish to jail me,
some may even wish to kill me.
But some have made the effort to redeem me.
That's a difference that matters from where I stand.

Well, honestly speaking (as usual, for that matter), I guess that you spend too much time looking for issues in other religions than you look to your own religion. What I'm trying to say is that you should, above all, forget what you or others believe and just practice good, I see nothing wrong in doing it even if I don't pray to whatsoever god. I deeply respect christians, muslims, atheists, iconoclasts, mono and polytheists... er... scratch all that, I respect PEOPLE. I mean, should I have one's god into consideration to say that the man right next to me is as worthy and decent and good as I am? You say you've tried quite hard to cohabit or something in the likes with muslims, by going to a mosque, by talking to an Imam and whatnot, and yet you fail to realize you should do this naturally and not even try hard, because that's the way it should be done, regardless of what god you praise. You misunderstand me when you say I have self righteous issues, what I do have is a lack of formed opinion regarding people that strive to cohabit with others when that should be the most natural thing in the world. Congratulations on having a baby son, I have an 8 year older myself, which has nothing to do with this discussion. I am not pretending to know where you come from or who you are, far from that, but you sure ring a bell, I still see intolerance and a hollier than thou attitude there, but that's just me. I could be completely wrong, of course. Peace.

reply to post by Faustian Spirit


Wow. I honestly wasn't expecting that reply. Thanks for bringing the tone down a bit :-) I honestly have much more respect for you now than I did before reading that post. Your earlier one, honestly, just kinda screamed immaturity to me. I don't see that at all in this post. Thanks.

Anyway. People being able to live together in a society peacefully should be a natural thing, especially for those whose faith is based on loving people. The issue comes down to how much you believe in your faith though. Honest, practicing Muslims would believe that I am damned to Hell for my beliefs, and Christians would believe the same about Muslims. If we honestly believe this, why would we encourage them in that faith? Because it makes them happy? Just because something makes us happy does not mean it is good for us. Who is to decide what is good for us? I personally think it has to be based on truth which I obviously think comes from the scriptures.

As far as simply living together, I agree that it should be natural to do so and do so peacefully. But the reality is that for these two groups of people, it is unnatural to do so. I think it's more than just disagreements about faith, I think it goes back to the hostilities committed hundreds of years ago due to extreme translations and corrupt leaders. It's a matter of distrust. I mean, stick a bully and a nerd in a room together and there is going to be apprehension on the part of the nerd, even if the bully claims to have changed his ways.

As for the gut feeling he had, I can understand that. A part of me would be thinking that it was going to be that much harder to evangelize now because there would be somebody trying to win people over to a different faith in the area. This of course wouldnt be the same as simple competition between businesses because we are talking about eternal ramifications for decisions made.


As for the lack of toleration, it's important to remember that there is a difference between toleration and condoning/supporting. For instance, I could tolerate people smoking, I think it's their choice and they have that right. But far be it from me to encourage the behavior, something I see as just plainly gross, expensive and unhealthy.
Anyway, that's about all I've got on the topic. Have a good one.

Edit: BTW, I know I spend a lot of time looking at the flaws and problems in other faiths, but I spend at least that much time evaluating my own both personally as well as what has been labeled "Christianity" as a whole. I have more issues with the "church" than I'd really care to bring up. Especially not here as it's not the threads topic. To put it simply, we've turned the church, who is supposed to be the bride of Christ, into a prostitute just like the Israelites of so long ago. It's a very, very sad thing.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by Mykahel]

[edit on 2-9-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by Mykahel


Well, I agree with the diference between tolerance and promotion of something you don't relate to, I smoke, for instance, and yet I want not my son to be a smoker, because it is bad, though pleasant. On the other hand, you're totally right when you say YOU (Man, that is) corrupted and perverted the church. I mean, it's business all along. I am portuguese, I've been to Fatima twice to try to understand what makes roman-catholics be so ignorant and at the same time faithful to their ignorance (I'm refering to the praise of saints, when your bilbe says "thou shall not practice idolatry", which they do). You don't have a clue on how many tons of gold have been poured into Fatima's vaults from believers (yes, I do mean GOLD as in the element gold, It's not a figure of speech), so they can please the lord. There are records going back to the 50's where they kept records of tons of gold per year, which is depressing.
Getting to the point: the muslim even felt bad for the prejudice he felt, which means it's a human condition: to deny something we don't understand and to be defensive about it. I prefer to think of people as people, and I sure pass if someone tries to lecture or endoctrinate me since I dismiss it completely. It's not unrespectful, it's just I prefer to look at things from a secular view. Weren't I an ex-evangelic christian myself.

Originally posted by Faustian Spirit
Well, I agree with the diference between tolerance and promotion of something you don't relate to, I smoke, for instance, and yet I want not my son to be a smoker, because it is bad, though pleasant. On the other hand, you're totally right when you say YOU (Man, that is) corrupted and perverted the church. I mean, it's business all along. I am portuguese, I've been to Fatima twice to try to understand what makes roman-catholics be so ignorant and at the same time faithful to their ignorance (I'm refering to the praise of saints, when your bilbe says "thou shall not practice idolatry", which they do). You don't have a clue on how many tons of gold have been poured into Fatima's vaults from believers (yes, I do mean GOLD as in the element gold, It's not a figure of speech), so they can please the lord. There are records going back to the 50's where they kept records of tons of gold per year, which is depressing.
Getting to the point: the muslim even felt bad for the prejudice he felt, which means it's a human condition: to deny something we don't understand and to be defensive about it. I prefer to think of people as people, and I sure pass if someone tries to lecture or endoctrinate me since I dismiss it completely. It's not unrespectful, it's just I prefer to look at things from a secular view. Weren't I an ex-evangelic christian myself.

it is the very tone of some people - perhaps not you, but there are plenty even here in this topic - that have a real "I am better than you" attitude precisely because they think they are "no respecter of persons". And will just as quickly then....put a "christian" (usually only that faith) down by saying we 'judge', when in fact, that smug person who is 'above doing all that' is in fact doing the same thing. Its called hypocrisy, and believe it or not...its not only christians and religious people who can be hypocrites, its atheists, agnostics, and just plain smug, so-called elitists who believe they have a better way by not 'having a way'.

And so let me repeat this isn't about you, Faustian, as it is about the attitude I believe Mykahel was sensing in the tone of this topic.

After all, if no one is truly better than the other, then those who preach against 'preaching' or religion, should heed their own words, would you not agree?

[edit on 2/9/10 by TrailGator]

Originally posted by 23refugee
Shall I stand up for another's religious freedom or shall I generalize all Muslims for being the same bigots as the "patriots"?
Will my willingness to stand with another oppressed minority be reciprocated or will that common bond of Abrahamic religious disgust for homosexuality override any concerns for my freedoms.
The Constitution is amendable and subject to interpretation, after all.
Is the enemy of my enemy my friend?

...stand up for the principle..stand up for the rights of those people you disagree with, because their rights are your rights.

"Principles only mean something if you stick by them when they are inconvenient"

I would gladly rally for the KKK's right to free speech...and I really, really hate those idiots...I'd drag my butt to DC to protest and then some if the Gov. said Rush couldn't spout his nonsense...get it?

reply to post by maybereal11


I get it.
What I don't get is why I shouldn't excercise my own freedom of speech.
They are free to expound the belief that homosexuality is a punishable crime.
I am free to expound my belief that such a stance is in conflict with American freedom.
They are as free to express a desire to outlaw my behavior as I am theirs.
The fact that their view might stem from religious conviction does not trump my secular view.
I am not obligated to tolerate intolerance for the sake of anothers religious freedom.

reply to post by 23refugee


Right on all counts...Express your opinion..

But start calling for change to the constitution, or ask the government to intercede and restrict where they can build a house of worship, or intimidate, harass and outright try to burn down churches or mosques...Nope.

No one is asking you to endorse the Muslim Faith...you have the right to be outspoken in your criticism of it....And they have a right to feel the way they do about you and similiar folks...Doesn't make it "right" but the Gov can't pick and choose our gods for us.

They have as much a right to idiotic docterine and views as every other religion in the USA...No more no less.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by maybereal11]

reply to post by maybereal11


Several states have recently been amended their constitutions with me in mind.
The government has interceded to restrict me with the Defense of Marriage Act.
I am intimidated by all the anti-gay ads sponsored by religious coalitions.
I am harassed by the fact that I can be legally fired for being gay in well over half the states.
I am more likely to be assaulted than any religious minority.
Isn't the function of a secular government to ensure that no group gets to pick and choose which god's law I must follow?
If my individual rights are determined by a religious majority then so are the rights of a religious minority.
That's the price to be paid when choosing to participate in any form of theocracy.
As you make your bed, so you lye down. According to your Conditions you have your Bargain.
James Kelly, Scottish Proverbs c.1721.

ETA: the point being, the current New Testament doctrine that guides the majority of American Christians is in no way equatable in terms of tolerance to the Sharia path that guides the majority American Muslims. I'm aware of the nature of my arguement, but I maintain that a fear of the slippery slope is reasonable when viewing the realities of Islam.
Eta: I'll have to return later to eat some crow since I just read an article in American Muslim espousing the same views on gay rights I just wrote.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by 23refugee]

[edit on 2-9-2010 by 23refugee]

This is another situation that the church has handled very poorly. Since the scriptures obviously teach homosexuality as a sin, Christians shouldnt approve of the behavior or simply call it alright. they should however still love those people just like they would anyone else. If there is a man in need, starving because he has no money and it's known that he is a homosexual, the Christian's job is not to first convince the man of his error but to feed him and show him the love of Christ.

On another note, I think hate crimes are the most ridiculous thing ever. If a person is assaulted, it doesnt matter what their race is or their sexual preference. A victim is a victim when it comes to crimes. The only real exception I can think of is crime against women and children. They are supposed to be protected by men, and crimes against them are definitely worse in my eyes. (Perhaps this make me old fashioned or sexist but it's what I think so there it is) Anyway, People are persecuted for their race, religion, lifestyle, you name it. I don't want special treatment if I'm persecuted for being a Christian, any more than the next guy.

reply to post by mothershipzeta


As it should be!

"Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

reply to post by 23refugee


Thanks for the heads up

I have made my position very clear in the past that I emphatically support gay rights especially those of the right to marry and adopt.

Why many of you have probably asked considering my religion?

Well it’s quite simple, while I do not proclaim that there is a shred of evidence in Islam that it’s religiously acceptable for gays to marry, I also proclaim that my theology is not to be imposed on others, nor would I want anyone else’s theology imposed on me. You know that whole golden rule thing?

My point is that I cannot justify a legal system where our founding documents proclaim that we are endowed with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, yet at the same time make it legal for one group or segment of the population to use their religious ideology as a catalyst to counter those inalienable rights toward another segment of the population.

www.theamericanmuslim.net...