British spy' found dead in bath

A few thoughts:

1. He was living in a block with numerous other M16 employees. He had a penthouse (top-floor flat) within that area. This indicates to me that he was generously compensated which indicates that he was important.

2. When a signals analyst is attached to a separate intelligence agency that specializes in more covert activities this indicates that he was an extremely gifted analyst (if he was in fact an analyst) and/or was capable of (or had knowledge of) the actual interpretation of signals intelligence directly relating to sensitive (along the lines of national security sensitive) information.

3. The introduction of one's sexual orientation especially when that revelation is taboo (homosexual, transvestite) always smells of cover-up to me (e.g. SPC Bradley Manning).

Sorry if some of that's been covered, but that my $0.02

I figured it out! He watched the forbidden video tape and forgot to make a copy of it and show all his other spy buddies and the crazy girl from the well came out of the TV and ripped his eyes out while he was in his computer chair. The cops actually put him in the bag because his body was so disgusting even the drapeage of the body bag over the corpse is letting the public know too much. Just Kidding sounds like some kind of Clancy plot.

Originally posted by Esrom Escutcheon Esquire
We'll he lived a mile away from Mi6 HQ, yet it took them 2 weeks to actually bother to try and find him...
Where as my employers are phoning me when im an hour late.

But yeah, a Welsh maths genius who was taking G.C.S.E's in Primary school and in University in secondry.

Im just hazarding a guess but I recon it is related to his private life. Probably a lovers tiff etc..

He was on leave apparently and only when his colleagues had heard nothing from him did alarm bells ring. Technically, 6 can contact 5 for internal stuff and they have Special Branch warrant cards, so I guess they went round to his pad first, found him dead and called in Plod.

Also, calling this guy a "spy" is far fetched. He was, at best, an analyst.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Esrom Escutcheon Esquire
We'll he lived a mile away from Mi6 HQ, yet it took them 2 weeks to actually bother to try and find him...
Where as my employers are phoning me when im an hour late.

But yeah, a Welsh maths genius who was taking G.C.S.E's in Primary school and in University in secondry.

Im just hazarding a guess but I recon it is related to his private life. Probably a lovers tiff etc..

Also, calling this guy a "spy" is far fetched. He was, at best, an analyst.

The term analyst was introduced to throw seekers out of sync. Its used to identify and usually accompanies a particular syntax. For example if i was to to say tristar is an analyst under the coms it would primarily mean the usual sys analyst, however if i was to say something like tristar is an analyst within coms then that would indicate to those aware of what my actual field is. Again, this is purely a fictional example.

Its far easier to conceal in plain view.


Individual in question.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/e40a1183a161a138.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 27-8-2010 by tristar]

Originally posted by jazz10
reply to post by tristar

 

One question about this if you all don't mind but its bugging me,
The photos? What's wrong with them?
Odd.

one could possibly be a full blown non listed agnt. Read the body language..!

Originally posted by ChrisF231
Isent that what Anna Chapman/Anna Kushchenko did? I recall hearing that she was in the UK for a few years before she came to the US to spy on us.

That's right, she was apparently in London at one point. There are pictures of her with London landmarks in the background.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
In regards to this story, I cannot believe that Special Branch refuses to entertain the thought that this was job related. Let's face it, killing someone and stuffing them into a bad indicates a plan. This was no lover's spat and Special Branch needs to look into the possibility of his murder being work related.

If Special Branch pubically said the man's death was work-related, then MI6 might be a little annoyed, namely because they will never confirm the identity of someone as their agent.

Special Branch are almost certainly looking into his death as being job-related, they simply can not rule that possibility out, although it's perhaps more likely MI5, MI6 and GCHQ are looking at this more as espionage and cloak and dagger is very much their thing.

But if Special Branch said "Yes, we believe his work was work-related." well then, people and an ungagged media would surmise that he died because his job was dangerous, and conclude that not only did he just 'work' for GCHQ and MI6, but was a spy.

Which would lead to the next questions: Who did it, and why? Who would kill a spy?

And then the speculating, accusations and evidence-gathering from the media begins. Finger pointed at Russia by the UK. Imagine the diplomatic fallout, at a time when Obama and Medvedev are getting nice and cosy and there's this supposed treaty to mutually reduce nukes.

The CIA are probably hoping MI6 keeps this quiet in case it is the Russians, because the diplomatic fallout would have repurcussions.

And of course, if it is confirmed that Williams is an MI6 agent, and was killed by the Russians, it would be (allegedly) the second asset of MI6 to be killed by the Russians since Litvenenko.

That does not make MI6 look all that good, but it does not make the FSB look good either.

Russia has always claimed that Litvenenko was killed as a result of an inter-Russian exile dispute.

So if William's death was job-related, it will almost certainly be kept quiet except where diplomatic leverage can be gained. Then the leaks might begin.

One thing we should take into consideration is what Putin said on the 25th July in the wake of the busting of the Russian Spy Ring in the US, when the spies returned to Russia. In an interview, it seems Putin gives a chilling warning to those who he sees as "traitors" and "sellouts" of the spies.

For the sake of clarity, I have emboldened the parts I consider the most relevant:

“We know traitors by names” – Putin (Includes Video of Interview)

“We know traitors by names” – Putin

Published 25 July, 2010, 15:13

Edited 10 August, 2010, 17:28

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin shared some details of his meeting with the returned spies.

Question: And you won’t say anything else?

Vladimir Putin: Well, you are not asking anything else.

Q: What did you talk about?

VP: About life.

Q: They say you did some karaoke singing together.

VP: We did some singing, though not karaoke.

Q: What did you sing then?

VP: We sang to live music.

Q: Live music, and what songs did you sing?

VP: “Where does the Motherland start” – seriously, I’m not kidding you, and some other songs of the same kind.

I'll stop here and state that, the building where Williams lived is according to The Guardian, in the name of a business based in the British Virgin Islands named New Rodina, which as I stated in my last post means "New Motherland" in Russian.

So, Putin says a song he sung with the spies was "Where does the Motherland start."

Here's some more of the interview:

Q: Was Anna Kuchenko present?

VP: What?

Q: Anna Chapman.

VP: Yes, she was. You know, there is not much to add here. Dmitry Medvedev already said that this is the result of a sell-out. And sellouts always come to no good, they end up in a ditch either drunk or drugged. The other day one such traitor kicked the bucket exactly like that, abroad. And there is no point doing it, really…

And now we have the death of an apparent MI6 man. Abroad. In London. In a building called "New Rodina (Motherland)" .

Putin says he sang "Where does the Motherland begin" with the returned spies. Was this mention of the song a codeword for who busted the Russian spy ring in the US?

Was Williams seen as a seen as a "traitor" and "sell-out" in connection with the Russian spy ring by Russia? Or was he in command of Russian "traitors" and "sell-outs" who gave away the identity of the Russian spies in the US to the FBI?

Q: You mean that you know all traitors by names?

VP: Of course we do.

Q: And you aren’t going to punish them in any way, are you? You think they will just somehow..?

VP: I think that is an improper question. And such decisions are not made at a press conference. Intelligence agencies have their own code, and all their staff follow it.

"Intelligence agencies have their own code, and all their staff follow it."

'Where does The Motherland begin'..... New Rodina (Motherland)?

As for these people, I can say that it has been a hard lot for each and every one of them. Just imagine – you must learn a foreign language as if it were your mother tongue, you’d have to think in it, and speak it, and execute all the tasks set by the motherland for many long years and with no diplomatic cover to back you up, and facing threats to your own safety and that of your families when, say, your own children don’t even know what you do.

More

Cloak and Dagger is known as such for a reason.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by Regensturm]

As I said before, it seems to me that if he were a spy he would not have been living in that building. It would have blown any cover he might have had, unless he was a double agent.

It's also very odd that no-one put out any kind of alert for 2 weeks, whether he was on vacation or not.

The situation has been designed to point to the Russians, and then lo and behold a Russian numbers station goes live an hour or so after public announcement of his death. Why not at the time they killed him, or before, if it was them? I'm sure they have more sophisticated comms than what amounts to pretty much a carrier pigeon in the form of 30+ years old tech.

With these facts, its either a triple bluff by the Russians, and a warning, or some internal MI6 affair designed to send out an entirely different kind of message.

My gut feeling is he was expendable and has been used for the latter purpose.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by the_journey_in]

Originally posted by the_journey_in
As I said before, it seems to me that if he were a spy he would not have been living in that building. It would have blown any cover he might have had, unless he was a double agent.

It's called hiding in plain sight. Sometimes it's the best form of disguise. Make it so obvious the house is Russian-related as to make an observer think "Well, it can't be, it's too obvious." and look elsewhere.

Originally posted by the_journey_in
The situation has been designed to point to the Russians, and then lo and behold a Russian numbers station goes live an hour or so after public announcement of his death. Why not at the time they killed him, or before, if it was them? I'm sure they have more sophisticated comms than what amounts to pretty much a carrier pigeon in the form of 30+ years old tech.

The Russian spy ring that was busted were said to have used shortwave radio to communicate with Moscow.

Owning a short wave radio is much easier to get away owning as anybody, not just spies, can have one, and any visitor or housecleaner would not think any the wiser that a short wave radio was indeed a communications device. It's a deniable device, whereas other, more sophisticated espionage equipment is not easy to explain away and hide in plain sight.

Numbers stations are broadcast over short wave, which agents then decipher the numbers via one-time pads, which can be hidden just about anywhere because of their small size.

UB-76 may have had a similar role to agents in the field.

So again, we find the Shortwave Radio as a communication device is something that holds to the saying: "Hide in Plain Sight."

It's not so hard to imagine the building served the same purpose.

Now it appears the CIA are taking on the case, since he also worked at NSA HQ.

His sister reportedly spoke to him 3 days before the murder, not 2 weeks. The family is confused.

Was he dismembered, as C4 News first stated? This still hasn't been revealed.

Not sure if this has been posted:

LONDON — Police hoped Friday that tests on the body of an MI6 intelligence officer found murdered in his bathtub would shed more light on his mysterious death, amid a report that bondage equipment was found in his flat.

Gareth Williams, 30, is thought to have been dead for two weeks when his decomposing remains were found in a bag in the bath at his home near London headquarters MI6, where he worked.

As friends painted a picture of Williams as a shy mathematics genius who loved cycling, The Times newspaper reported that police had found bondage gear in his flat and possible evidence linking him to a male escort.

Scotland Yard declined to comment in detail on the investigation but said that officers were awaiting the results of tests on Williams's body after a post-mortem examination failed to determine the precise cause of death.

The tests should reveal details including whether he had been drinking or taking drugs.

It is thought that Williams might have known his killer as there was no sign of forced entry at the flat.

He was just days from completing a one-year secondment to SIS from his job at GCHQ, Britain's "listening post" which monitors communications for intelligence purposes, located in Cheltenham.

Source

With such conflicting initial reports and such an obvious effort to profile this man with a taboo lifestyle (regardless of if that is his profile), I'm inclined to think that this is obvious cover.

1. The bag in the bathtub angle has been covered in-thread. But why would a lunny escort stuff the body into the bad.

2. It'd be one super-sized bag to fit a human body enact. Much more likely is dismemberment.

3. Why would a male escort lay out the SIMs? I believe this was indeed a sign either from Gareth or the murderer

I fully support the theory that this man was not murdered at this residence. Why else take the effort the dismember and place in bag, only leave the bag in the bathtub?

Another red-flag for me will be if there are reports of drugs in his system. First, his position surely required regular testing. Second, shy mathematical geniuses with higher-up intel jobs aren't typically partiers.

reply to post by misinformational


There would be no need for dismemberment... the killer would only have to have broken some bones and crushed the ribcage... much less difficult and time consuming than say, hacking the body up, and getting gore all over the place.

reply to post by TrueBrit


Hmm... without any real-world experience, I'm not in a position to disagree. However, my Guy Ritchie-esque movie experience is and does.

I can vaguely remember a scene from some movie specifically discussing why such a process is necessary in the transport and dispose of one's ill-gotten earnings. For the life of me, I can't remember the movie - definitely not a Ritchie though.

reply to post by misinformational


While we all know and love the works of Guy Ritchie, I hardly think they can be used to explain away a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Look at it from the perspective of volume.
If a corpse is cut up, it shares the same volume wether its been sliced up, or been broken to fit a space. The only difference is, that with dismemberment you have to put a lot of effort into cutting the flesh, then (usualy with a different instrument) cutting the bone, and to do it properly and accurately takes time dedication and alot , and I mean a tone of sweat. It has the added negative of being messy , and requires the perpatrator to take yet more time cleaning himself up, and perhaps even changing clothes (and disposing of old ones) before moving from the scene lest he be discovered with a bloody outfit on.
Comparitively little effort is required to break key bones in the body, making it fold into the same space, but without the express need for all the chopping, sawing sweating, and blood loss. Just break the knees, dislocate the hips (not hard when you know how) snap the arms at the elbows and the shoulders, then stove in the ribcage... maybe break the neck . Then its a case of folding the head at the neck down into the broken ribcage (judicious application of force may be required, but its a corpse , so its not going to complain) , then folding the arms up, and over the head, and then bringing the legs up over the top of that. Ensuring the corpse is with its back to the floor , so that the legs are top most of the pile. Now, bare down with all your might on the shins (which should at this point be facing the ceiling). The already crushed chest will crush down further under the force, allowing quite a substantial amount of the head, the thighs, and the arms to be forced into a very small space indeed ,well enough to get the corpse into a holdall , or a sufficiently accomodating back pack or bergen.

reply to post by TrueBrit


On that note, I'll concede - you make some reasonable points.

Dismemberment notwithstanding, I continue to suspect that the body was placed in the flat. Why else waste the effort to get body into bag (which would be a rather involved and gruesome process either way) and then leave the bag?

www.cherryvalley-rt.net...

The usual suspects was sent to us someone who has too much time on his hands - can you spot the alleged Criminal

So whats up with this web page. Go half way down and look at the group picture with Gareth Williams in it. Why the mask on Ian Dalton? Usual suspects?

Many Aspects of this case will never be known by us.
IMHO, This is a case of a double agent that knew too much.

My sincere condolences to his family.

The provocateurs that, I contend, perpetrated this murder knew exactly what they were doing. It seems to me that all of the reports in the MSM are cleverly crafted to send a message to others. The Agents that that message is directed toward know exactly what the message is and what it means.

Cue Pink Floyd "Run Like Hell" from "The Wall".
....."They're gonna send you back to mother
In a cardboard box.
You better run."

And to add to the mystery of the web site I posted above.

Reverse Whois:"Gareth Williams" owns about204 other domains Email Search: is associated with about 19,322 domains
Registrar History:1 registrar NS History:1 change on 2 unique name servers over 7 years. IP History:3 changes on 3 unique name servers over 4 years. Whois History:16 records have been archived since 2007-08-17 . Reverse IP:509 other sites hosted on this server.

whois.domaintools.com...

So that is Gareth Williams website and he has 204 more?

Just some thoughts:

1. To get a man that size into a holdall you'll need to cut off his legs, perhaps his arms too.

2. Whoever came into the building with Gareth will have been captured on CCTV. If they have eyball scanners, you can bet there's other systems, including bugging scanners.

3. If the body was dismembered elsewhere, it would have to be brought into the building by someone. Again, they would be captured on CCTV, probably with the holdall in full view.

4. The amount of money and influence on that street, multiply the usual number of cameras and probably include a sat or two.

= The killer is on CCTV. Someone would have been alerted to tampering with security systems in the last 2 weeks.

5. The only sticky point here is that if another resident or guest in the building committed the murder, since there may be security holes.

= Killer could be another person in the building

6. Neighbours report hardly ever seeing him enter or leave building.

= Is there a secret tunnel in the building?

7. Police say body is two weeks old. His sister Ceri reportedly said she spoke to gareth 3 days before they found the body. The family is reportedly confused.

= Murder is more recent than we are led to believe. Why add that facet to the story? To throw us - or the uniformed police - off the scent.

8. What happened in 3 days immediately prior to discovery of the body in that street? Was Gareth sighted anywhere in last 2 weeks? Is this the reason why the killer left the SIMS and phones out? To taunt the British secret service that their efforts to cover up will be in vain?

9. Now the CIA are involved. Gareth visited NSA headquarters in Maryland 4 times every year. He was probably liaison. He knew something - that the CIA don't want discovered.

10. MI5 try to silence story by inventing bondage gear, transvestite story and rent boy calling cards. They are also mad at C4 News, who have quietened down considerably.

= Cyclist geek is more important than first appears. Killer is on CCTV in 3 days before discovery of body. British Secret service have CCTV. CIA gets involved.



[edit on 27-8-2010 by the_journey_in]

reply to post by the_journey_in


No cutting is required, but some people havent the imagination to merely fold a person.
It takes all sorts.

Originally posted by the_journey_in

10. MI5 try to silence story by inventing bondage gear, transvestite story and rent boy calling cards. They are also mad at C4 News, who have quietened down considerably.

Im starting to find that this point may hold a bit of water.

If media reporting on a particular incident starts to compromise national security, then the government will issue something called a 'D notice' to the various news organizations editors.

This is a polite but firm request to drop the issue like a hot potato, and it all happens completely out of the public gaze. The government cannot legally enforce it, but i doubt that (for instance) the editor of C4 news would want to go against it - there would be nothing to gain.

So then the press are stuck with a story - one which if they suddenly buried would add credence to the rumours surrounding it. Their only course of action is to start to play down the 'Spooks' element and substitute it with a 'Sex Deviant' element, offering vague evidence in support.

And apparently the police think that any link to Gareth Williams murder and his work is quite far down on the list of possibilities. Perhaps the idea that it could be is starting to be phased out from public conciousness?

Anyway, i hope that justice catches up with the person or persons that have committed this horrible crime.