Building Muscle/diet help please

reply to post by havok
your description is the closest so far to how this person should approach their situation. Good for you!



[edit on 1-8-2010 by Fifth Horseman]

reply to post by Fifth Horseman


I suppose you wouldnt suggest doing a handstand wall press up... (jk)

...........................................
Anyway,
How about advice based on the fellas equipment?
Just dumb-bells...

And you do work your triceps when you do a standing curl with an altanated grip. AND by not letting the downward momentum of the weight take control when you straighten your arm. - Do the exercise in a controlled movement. (mainly with an overhand grip. ..And I suppose it could be more of a pull-down except were not using machines. Egh.)

The same principle can be said by including a twist in the other exercises to hit smaller mucle groups that are overlooked - eg. such as a seated dumb-bell shoulder press.

And also, take into account certain body types. (Endomorph, etc.)

And as I said earlier, I still wouldnt use Creatine.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
reply to post by havok

 

your description is the closest so far to how this person should approach their situation. Good for you!

Probably because I was in a similar situation.
I wanted to begin body building and had to have a solid foundation.
Which to me, was working slow, and building up my stamina at home, before taking it to the gym.
I was thoroughly impressed with my results after time.

The Human body is amazing.

Originally posted by Esrom Escutcheon Esquire
reply to post by Fifth Horseman

 

I suppose you wouldnt suggest doing a handstand wall press up... (jk)

...........................................
Anyway,
How about advice based on the fellas equipment?
Just dumb-bells...

And you do work your triceps when you do a standing curl with an altanated grip. AND by not letting the downward momentum of the weight take control when you straighten your arm. - Do the exercise in a controlled movement. (mainly with an overhand grip. ..And I suppose it could be more of a pull-down except were not using machines. Egh.)

The same principle can be said by including a twist in the other exercises to hit smaller mucle groups that are overlooked - eg. such as a seated dumb-bell shoulder press.

And also, take into account certain body types. (Endomorph, etc.)

And as I said earlier, I still wouldnt use Creatine.

I agree with the non-use of creatine.
It has proven to be a iritant to the thyroid for some users that can cause irreversible damage. (me for one)
I started to get thyroid issues after taking creatine, so I immediately stopped.

As far as going into so much detail, remember it sounds as thought he is beginning. Not intermediate.

After he begins to work out and start an exercising routine, then he can look up different exercises and the such.

For now, start slow and build your way up.

If you jump into the deep-end without knowing how to swim, you will drown.
(or in this case injure yourself)

reply to post by Fifth Horseman


Mate all you seem to be doing is advertising the "brilliance" of personal trainers.

No one needs a personal trainer, all the information on how to build muscle or lose weight is available on the internet, magazines, and books.

Don't tell me or anyone else for that matter that our knowledge is incorrect or flawed in some way, I'm speaking from personal experience not quoting "tips" from muscular development magazine.

It's a scientific proven fact that 1lb of protein per gram of body weight is optimal to induce an anabolic state within the human body.

Just because someone is overweight doesn't mean they're genetically predisposed to become a type II diabetic, what if they were born skinny and then became overweight?

Of course being overweight means the chances that you'll become a diabetic will increase, but that's like saying if you smoke then your more likely to develop lung cancer, i.e. pretty obvious...

All you seem to be doing is knocking peoples genuine advise and offering not much of your own, I'll agree with not stretching before a workout but that's about it.

Unless someone is severely overweight or has a heart condition they do not need to see a doctor before starting an exercise program, all they need to do is to take it easy and start gradually.

I also don't understand why you are saying the OP shouldn't train like a bodybuilder, ermm he stated he wanted to increase his muscle. No one has told him to go start taking Winstrol/D-Bol/Nandrolone. There is something known as natural bodybuilding you know and just because you train like a bodybuilder to build muscle doesn't mean you want to go to the extremes and become one.

Type 2 diabetes is referred to as ADULT ONSET diabetes. If a person is "born skinny and then becomes overweight" you are no doubt moving towards this condition. Period. I used to be just like you, reading the internet, watching video, talking to the biggest guy in the gym and it all lead to the confusion this individual finds himself in. What did I do? I got EDUCATED and CERTIFIED on the subject. This person needs a trainer, that is obvious by their drowning in a "sea of information".
would you mind linking me to this study about your protein hypothesis? and it doesn't count if it is funded by a supplement company. Maybe a peer reviewed journal? Its nothing new to me, its just that this is a tactic to get you to buy huge jugs of protein. This individual needs to get their health in order before starting an excercise program, ESPECIALLY if they are overweight. To say otherwise is to totally backseat their health concerns to address their aesthetic concerns. CART HORSE. The professional assessment is to identify functional deficiencies and strengths to make sure certain excercises and modalities of training are correct for their situation.
Your tricep acts only in an antagonistic function during the bicep curl. It is not a primary, nor secondary mover, therefore it does not "do work". Im not surprised at this mistake as it seems you have a problem with basic understanding of excercise physiology. Instead of getting upset with me, why not sign up to go through the certification process. It seems you have a good heart, but your attempts are misguided. You will come out on the other side a MUCH better athlete and have genuine knowledge. Then we can have this discussion on a whole different level.
As far as providing suggestions with the dumbells...I will in a month if they are still interested. If I were to do that now, the temptation to bypass my earlier recommendations and go "hit the weights" may be to great and pull them off the correct path.
Boxers need training, mechanics need training, waitresses need training, astronauts need training, nurses need training. How well would it work if I looked up Jui-jitsu for a couple nights online and went to a tournament to compete? How well would it go if I trained with a qualified instructor and waited until they said I was ready to compete. Ever have uncle Larry try to fix your car, only to have to take it to the pro's to have the new problems he created fixed as well as the original? same situation, I have countless people come to me who have been training for years, and the first couple months are spent UNLEARNING bad habits. Sad but true

reply to post by Fifth Horseman


Incorrect mate.

I've trained with weights, trained in Shotokan Karate, trained as a boxer, trained in BJJ and also trained in MMA. Believe me, I know what works and what doesn't. No one needs a personal trainer, all the information needed is out there, personal trainers are for lazy people who will not read, learn or attend gym classes'

Having your own opinion is fine, but not believing my own personal experiences is your choice, at the end of the day I know what worked for me and unfortunately for you everything I have read online, in books, been taught and even read in magazines has worked.

By the way you said "This individual needs to get their health in order before starting an excercise program" surely starting an exercise program is how to get your health in order or I am missing something???

[edit on 1/8/10 by Death_Kron]

so you trained yourself in all those arts? by reading books? and movies or did you have instructors?

getting your health in order pertains to ruling out any preexisting conditions that would preclude certain training modalities. Undiagnosed asthma, thyroid conditions, spinal conditions etc. All these can be made worse by being ignored by going undetected. Seriously..DUH. Jumping in both feet can make problems much worse.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
so you trained yourself in all those arts? by reading books? and movies or did you have instructors?

By attending a Shotokan Karate school run by my uncle for 2 years, by training at the gym 3 times a week for about 4 years and for attending MMA & Boxing classes for 1 year with a little cross training with BJJ & Kung Fu guys thrown in between.

In addition to the physical real world training I supplemented my knowledge by reading various magazines, texts, books and scriptures.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
getting your health in order pertains to ruling out any preexisting conditions that would preclude certain training modalities. Undiagnosed asthma, thyroid conditions, spinal conditions etc. All these can be made worse by being ignored by going undetected. Seriously..DUH. Jumping in both feet can make problems much worse.

Don't be ridiculous! You can have undiagnosed asthma, thyroid or spinal conditions whether your overweight or not, I'm pretty sure such conditions would already have been identified before an individual went for a pre fitness health program check.

Why don't you just recommend people go for health checks because it seems your saying doctors are more likely to diagnose health conditions before someone starts a fitness program which is complete bull#.

so you had instructors. thanks.
actually most excercise programs are started at the orders of a doctor following the discovery of health concern. If it can be helped, then excercise is prescribed like medicine. Are you scared to get a physical? Most pro fighters have a pre and post done, probably didn't learn that from your Uncle or at th Y I suppose. Most likely what has worked for you thus far is some natural intuitive experiences (good on you), a few abysmal instructive periods (uncle) leading to a lot of trial and error (random classes at the Y etc.) . I can see why you mistrust idea of having a trainer. If you are good, imagine how great you could be by having the right people behind you.

if a conition were already identified it wouldn't be undiagnosed would it...?

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
so you had instructors. thanks.
actually most excercise programs are started at the orders of a doctor following the discovery of health concern. If it can be helped, then excercise is prescribed like medicine. Are you scared to get a physical? Most pro fighters have a pre and post done, probably didn't learn that from your Uncle or at th Y I suppose. Most likely what has worked for you thus far is some natural intuitive experiences (good on you), a few abysmal instructive periods (uncle) leading to a lot of trial and error (random classes at the Y etc.) . I can see why you mistrust idea of having a trainer. If you are good, imagine how great you could be by having the right people behind you.

Haha, you really are a laugh mate :-) You seem to have a very strange of of why people undertake exercise programs, no most exercise programs are not prescribed they are undertaken by people when they want to improve their fitness, gain muscle mass, train for an event like a marathon etc

No, I'm not scared to get a "physical" I've had plenty thank you. More Americanized bull# on your behalf...

As far as natural intuitive experiences I'm not sure what your talking about, everything I have learned has been scientific and taught by qualified instructors.

I'm not sure who you think you are with regards to calling the teaching I received from my Uncle abysmal, have you ever trained under my Uncle? Do you even know who he is? Have any slightest idea of Shotokan Karate?

I really wouldn't want to call my Uncle teachings abysmal, if you think so then why don't you go and have a spar with him? See how bad his teachings actually are?

Once again, I'm not sure where you get the impression from that I haven't had trainers, I have for almost 5 years.

Save yourself the embarrassment because your making yourself look stupid enough, without me correcting everything you say.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
if a conition were already identified it wouldn't be undiagnosed would it...?

What's a conition?

I would love to spar your uncle, it seems we have a lot of water between us however. You can check records if you like Im a four time state champion from the WPKA in wisconsin. No disrespect to him was meant as I was just drawing conclusions and using him from example.
So YOU studied under QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS???? I thought we didn't need those..you may be confused. Explain.
it was condition, my bad. typing between commercials

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
I would love to spar your uncle, it seems we have a lot of water between us however. You can check records if you like Im a four time state champion from the WPKA in wisconsin. No disrespect to him was meant as I was just drawing conclusions and using him from example.
So YOU studied under QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS???? I thought we didn't need those..you may be confused. Explain.
it was condition, my bad. typing between commercials

Training in a martial art such as Karate, Kung-Fu, Ju-Jitsu, Thai Boxing etc etc requires one on one tuition with a qualified instructor whereas undertaking a health and fitness regime doesn't.

It's quite easy to learn the basics about nutrition and weight resistance training for example on the internet and via reading books, you may want to have an introductory session with a qualified gym member but after that your all set.

Are you trying to say that it's harder to learn how to perform a bicep curl without instruction than it is to learn a check hook with instruction?

why do you need more than an introductory session with martial arts (which is comprised of anatomical movements, flexion,extension, rotation, pronation, etc) and only an introductory session with excercise which is comprised of anatomical movements just the same.
both require correct form, both require a trained eye, both require progressive periodization, both require strategy, both require knowledge o f anatomy ( however this is where alot of todays instructors fall short, its easier to show something because my master says so rather than understand the BIOMECHANICS at play. if they don't know the correct terminology then, no, they don't understand it, they just regurgitate it) both require repetitive drills to enhance form, on and on and on.
Please explain how learning martial arts and learning excercise are different, because being successful at both, I can tell you straight up they are not. Do you need a sensei for ever? NO. Do you need a trainer forever. NO. Are they really useful in the beginning stages of both endeavors?INVALUABLE. Lastly did I not tell the person to enlist a trainer at least for the beginning of their program?.....anyone else care to chime in here? I feel like we took over this thread and are reaching a stalemate

I think really what happened here is you were enjoying playing trainer, and then someone who is qualified to do so shows up and puts you on the defensive. If it is so easy to learn off the internet then why do you feel this individual is confused. Because you don't know who or what is to be trusted. How am I to be trusted? simple, the qualification process I undertook is accredited by three different outside bodies whose jobs it is to review the information given, review the training methods presented, and finally oversee the exam, and examination process. These are the same bodies that work hand in hand with american colleges..let me guess, more Americanized bull"&% right?
What we have here is you (street certified) vs myself (street certified + formally educated in given subject) in my eyes not a fair fight and you are losing ground fast.
If you would like to keep giving advice please, its kinda funny, if not confusing.

Well this conversation has certainly gotten off track

I guess I was under the impression that the OP was already doing some form of exercise that was responsible for his weight loss. But I guess the weight loss he described could have just as easily been caused by illness or diet alone. In which case one should obviously not jump into heavy weight training without any previous fitness base from walking, jogging, calisthenics, etc.

But then again he's simply talking about working out with dumbells here (light weights I assume). The circuit training (high tempo) was good advice and a good place to start, especially considering there is still some weight to be lost. But I don't see the harm in throwing in some "bodybuilding" style lifts as well. I don't think he's talking about slinging around 50LB dumbells. Why not start some "bodybuilding" lifts now with light weights, get a feel for the movement, get the technique down. So that in the future he can increase the weight/resistance and the real muscle building can begin.

Fifth Horseman, I respect the fact you are a CPT; and if you don't mind I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask you.

In your opinion what are the best exercises/drills to increase speed and agility?

In reference to one of the OP's questions, what is your opinion of weight training while in a caloric deficit? Is it possible to have sizable muscles gains, or would the apparent gains mostly be due just to decreased fat? Thus making what muscles you do have show more.

Are there any supplements that you have had a good experience with?

reply to post by Boognish
fresh air I love it. He there. Before moving into speed and agility training absolutely make sure you have a solid base of fitness. I don't want to say one excercise over another, rather modalities. Here we will start off with progressive sprint drills, cone running, and some ladder drills (think hopscotch for adults). Phase two would move into plyometric style calisthenics, medicine ball moves to improve high speed sending and recieving, and box jumping/depth jumping. Phase three would move into high speed short duration simulations of whatever sport you are preparing for.
You must also accordingly train the body's major energy systems: A-lactic, lactic, anaerobic and aerobic. the first lasts appro 2-6 seconds,next 6-20, then 20 to 45, and past 45 seconds of continuous motion, the aerobic system takes over and most explosiveness of the motion is gone. try hitting a punching bag as fast (not as hard mind you) as you can for a minute straight. In the untrained fighter you will feel different levels of fatigue set in at those given intervals. The experienced, trained athlete will be able to maintain a higher level of explosiveness for longer periods, thus winning the event. when I train my athletes, I use an xyz accelerometer on the pads to measure the loss in power, and speed, over time. From this assessment then a course can be plotted