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Building Muscle/diet help please

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posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
Before I say anything else, I am a CPT specializing in speed and agility, biomechanics, functionality, and metabolic enhancement. You have recieved so-so information so far, with most of it being straight out of Muscle and whatever magazine.


The arrogance associated with three little words, Certified Personal Trainer, sometimes astounds me. Being a CPT does not make you an expert, my friend, it simply means you won't hurt someone (and that's not always the case either). Honestly, any idiot with $50 and an internet connection can become a certified personal trainer.

At every gym I've ever been to, watching most of the trainers with their clients makes me wonder how they're even able to retain clients. And talking with them, especially about nutrition, is like pulling teeth. Why? Because 99% of trainers simply learn the material to pass a test and then....never set their eyes on material again (unless their insurance is expiring, of course).

It really is a sad thing. My best friend has 4 certs and is the group fitness coordinator for one of the largest chain gyms in the country.....and yet, she comes to me for sports and general nutrition advice and, gasp, I'm constantly referring her to information that will help her clientele.

See, I've read the same books she has...and even skimmed the practice tests. The biggest difference is I've realized the constantly evolving nature of exercise science and sports nutrition. I also realized that quality information is also found OUTSIDE of certifying organizations.


To those who are telling you to try supplements, stop. Everyone telling you to try a hypertrophic workout before establishing a solid fitness base, stop. And to the guy who listed triceps as a muscle used during dumbell curls...stop.
If you were my client, the first thing you would do is get a physical, then a professional fitness assessment. These two things will dictate what your workouts are to be at least in the beginning 3-4 months. It makes no sense to have you lifting like an bodybuilder when your body composition is poor. The most likely beginnings for you is to get on the treadmill and walk every morning before you eat. Achieve 65-75% of your maximum heart rate (MHR=220-your age) for 30 minutes with a five minute easy warm up and five minute easy cooldown. Use a heart rate monitor to help establish the correct speed and incline.


STOP! Good thing he's not your client. Did you even read the OP? The guy wants to primarily build more muscle and cut a little more fat....NOT run a marathon. Why in the world are you prescribing steady state cardio? Oh....


This is the aerobic zone, where body fat is used for fuel


I remember reading that in a few textbooks and hearing it from PTs. However, I also remember reading study, after study, after study....and mounds of data suggesting steady state cardio/jogging is an innefective fat loss tool. And strenuous exercise activates LPL (lipo-protein lipase) in the muscles....which means they'll uptake glucose, not fat. And the OP wants to build muslce, not destroy it by jogging all the time.

Just as muscle building occurs during rest (not during the workout), fat loss should come during rest. Burn glucose during workouts and fat during rest.

I agree he doesn't need to lift like a bodybuilder (and he certainly doesn't need 5 different exercises per muscle group), but if the guy wants to get bigger, he needs to lift heavy weights and he needs to eat. Period.

You made one of the most common mistakes made by personal trainers today....You neglected dietary influence, and he specifically asked for dietary advice in the OP.

Hey....CPT! Here's an honest question. Have you been beating the same drum since you finished your cert? Or do you actively seek out new information in a field that REQUIRES it?




posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by Boognish
 


training in a caloric deficit is manageable (think a wrestler cutting weight) however I must agree that catabolism, caused mainly by coritisol a stress hormone, is very tough to avoid. Typically the last things to be lowered are protein and fiber as these are needed to maintain bodily functions as well as water. It is not the ideal situation to put on muscle. Also the term caloric deficit is relative to the persons current state of activity. I have had success with arginine supplementation as well as whey proteins that have a balanced amino acid profile. Arginine supplementation is actually leading to some new advances in treating many chronic conditions. Protein supplementation for myself only happens post workout, when a protein with a high bioavailibility and a highly bioavailable sugar to replace spent muscle and liver glycogen, are required to begin the repair process. Eggs are almost as good, but I just cant eat them as easily after a tough workout and may not be near a kitchen. my typical daily protein intake hovers around 70-100 grams, depending on how active I am that day. Hope this helps!



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
 


Steady state cardio IN THE BEGINNING, which is what we are talking about will help this person shed body fat the best. What you are saying holds true for and post beginer trainee. Shedding 10-20 lbs of fat will have the appearance of gaining 5 lbs of body weight.
So you are telling me that you completely understand the complex biomechanics involved in say a squat unloaded vs a loaded squat and can explain that in anatomical terms? Can you tell me what the target heart rate for a 46 year old male using the Karvonenian method is? How about the metabolic effects of post excercise stretching. This is what the test is like. In a proxied environment. at least mine was.
$50 HAHAHAHAHAHA really, from an ACCREDITED institution? example please. Yes I do keep up ,daily, on the newest research and trends hitting the trade. why wouldn't I? you seem to agree with much of what I said, so again from which position of authority do you speak. I've stated my credentials, what are yours?



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 06:05 PM
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reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
 


there are bad players in any industry, does that condemn all those associated? are all cops bad because a couple are? doctors, same question. Sorry your friend is a slouch trainer, but we all aren't



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 06:21 PM
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reply to post by Fifth Horseman
 


You haven't got a clue what your talking about mate, I'll be happy to let you speculate..............



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 06:36 PM
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Death Kron,

thanks for the encouragement! good luck. Thanks for answering my last questions, (you didn't because you can't I assume)
To the OP, I hope by reading this whole post you realize who has genuine interest in your health and success, and who is here to argue, as it should be quite evident.

[edit on 1-8-2010 by Fifth Horseman]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by Fifth Horseman
 


Interesting stuff. Thanks for the replies. I've always secretly wanted one of those parachutes that you strap on your back and run sprints with. They make sense to me. But I'm not willing to run around my yard or the track where people could see me, plus I'm not spending the money for one.

You say you average around 70-100g protein per day....Now I'm curious about what you weigh.

To the others posting here I kind of understand your anti-trainer attitude as well. But it's definitely not fair to lump all of them together. It is true that there is plenty of info around on the interwebs, books, etc to educate yourself to the right way and wrong way to do things. Some people are capable of sifting through all of this information and creating solid training programs for themselves; but many other people are not.

I've never consulted a trainer and over the years I've tried different weight training regimens with varying success. Nothing beats experience and dedication. It took me awhile (several attempts of quitting/starting over, frustration) to find an exercise/nutrition/supplement plan that works for me. But over the last 4 months I have finally seen the results that I have been expecting. Would a trainer have helped me figure this stuff out a long time ago? Absolutely. Is it completely necessary? No.

OK......well enough of this foreplay. I just took some Gaspari Superpump250 about 30 minutes ago. Got the Sizeon Max Performance ready to go. Time to work out the legs with some squats, stiff deads, lunges, and calf raises. Then follow that up with a shake consisting of milk, nonfat frozen yogurt, and Myofusion.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 07:39 PM
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reply to post by Boognish
 
thanks for having and adult attitude about things. I currently weigh 170 lbs at 5'7" floating around 10% bodyfat right now. I compete at 155 for fighting so I do have to be careful about what I eat and when.
I think you would look amazing in a parachute chasing around your backyard! HAHA that was a great image in my head, thanks for the laugh. They certainly have their place in speed training but you can substitute with some creativity. Run some hills, or a bungie tied to weight dragging behind you, even running with just your lower legs in the water. Im glad you understood the points I was trying to make. Some people just like to do it their way, others prefer a path set before them. Now go kill those squats you beast!



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
 


Steady state cardio IN THE BEGINNING, which is what we are talking about will help this person shed body fat the best. What you are saying holds true for and post beginer trainee. Shedding 10-20 lbs of fat will have the appearance of gaining 5 lbs of body weight.


Steady state cardio never. This person has lost 100 pounds of fat already. We're not talking about a severely obese individual that can only walk 30 minutes a day. There's really no reason why he should be jogging for 30 minutes at a specific heart rate....unless he's training for a marathon or is simply in love with jogging long distances. Interval training is a much more effective fat loss tool; is less stressful for the joints; is less time consuming; and is arguably better for the heart.


So you are telling me that you completely understand the complex biomechanics involved in say a squat unloaded vs a loaded squat and can explain that in anatomical terms?


Completely off the top of my head? Nope.


Can you tell me what the target heart rate for a 46 year old male using the Karvonenian method is?


If you were to ask me on the spot? Nope.


How about the metabolic effects of post excercise stretching.


No...of course, I never paid too much attention to stretching. I'd rather just loosen up.



This is what the test is like. In a proxied environment. at least mine was.


Yes, I know. But it does depend on the accreditation. I'm sure you know the differences between NSCA, NASM, ACE, ACSM and Cooper (which is just down the street from me).


$50 HAHAHAHAHAHA really, from an ACCREDITED institution? example please.


www.expertrating.com...

Can you get a job at a gym with it? lol, no. But the average person doesn't know the difference.


Yes I do keep up ,daily, on the newest research and trends hitting the trade.


I hope so.


you seem to agree with much of what I said, so again from which position of authority do you speak. I've stated my credentials, what are yours?


I have none. I have read through the NSCA Essentials of Personal Training, and read select chapters out of a few others. I lack the required certs for three reasons:

1) Nutrition: I've always been more intrigued by nutrition, which is where most of my time is devoted. Understanding the importance of dietary influences on one's health and physique, I find it somewhat difficult to pay money for a cert only to be restricted from providing my clients with nutrition advice/programs.

2) Material: I have a problem learning the material, only to unlearn it once I pass the test. I believe that much of the information provided by these organizations is ridiculous. Not all of it, but a good bit of it. I'd rather learn from experts in the field that depend on results to get paid and the raw data/literature.

3) Time: I won't take that test until I take the time to sit down and review the test material in-depth.


there are bad players in any industry, does that condemn all those associated? are all cops bad because a couple are? doctors, same question. Sorry your friend is a slouch trainer, but we all aren't


I know. There are always exceptions to the rule. But the current rule is that Personal Training has replaced Server/Waiter as a musicians/actor/actress's day job....Or has become a perfect job for a former athlete turned college student. Are you one of these types? I don't know; probably not. But what you displayed in your first post is precisely the type of egotism that is so commonly attributed to personal trainers that believe a 3 month course and a $400 test makes them experts. Sorry, but I run in to it almost daily. Any idea that goes against the grain is met with dismissal, resistance and, often, ridicule and mockery.

Sorry if I associated you with a group of individuals in which you have no intention of joining.

Discussing is good. Disagreeing is good. But dogmatism isn't. I really don't mind if you disagree with me, as long as we can discuss/debate it like professionals with a common goal.....a search for truth, the answer, the facts...et cetera.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 10:30 PM
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reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
 
your post is more than fair, I thank you. The questions I posted are just examples of what is needed, off the top of your head. During real training environments (we are not talking jazzercise here) you are going to have to make decisions and potential changes to the days plans that could affect a whole season,Off the top of your head. There is no time to google it out when they are looking for you to lead. People are paying good money and the answers I give are based in both my experience and what I have learned through the cert process.
3 months? I wish! mine is a 6 part program with the 6th part being a cumulative of the first 5. I am currently just past the first year spent and about to complete the sixth part. At that point I will be considered a M(aster)CPT. I tell you this only as part full disclosure, not any silly bragging. I chose to do it because I am a standout athete and martial artist and am wanted to open a small gym. My education is constantly ongoing, lifelong hopefully. I supplement knowledge like you do. Thats what were doing here, right? as far as price I came in just under a grand for the program. It is great. I learned a ton and none of it has let me down or proven to be wrong in the field.
The OP also stated that they were still quite fat. As a reputable trainer with conscience you need to address health issues first and then go after their goals for full speed.
Maybe, just maybe I can change your mind onthis subject. You might make a wonderful trainer. As far as employment it is a great way to express yourself as a person, and help people lead better lives. Not so bad...



[edit on 1-8-2010 by Fifth Horseman]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
 


you did notice I said "post-excercise stretching" right?
do you "loosen up" after your workout? didn't think so.
I will discuss it like a professional, do you get paid to train people also? cause if not ...well..r u a professional?How?


[edit on 1-8-2010 by Fifth Horseman]

[edit on 1-8-2010 by Fifth Horseman]



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 07:42 AM
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reply to post by Fifth Horseman
 


I haven't answered your questions because I feel like no matter what I say or how I answer your still going to adopt that American condescending tone of yours and not give a straight answer or be willing to compromise.

I'd love you to tell me what I've said that you find funny or confusing?

You can't learn martial arts or boxing from a textbook, it might be useful to pick up a few pointers, practice at home etc but you need instruction from someone who is qualified.

I'll say it again, do you think you can learn a check hook from a book? The answer is NO.

Can you learn a bicep curl from a book or the internet? The answer is YES.

All the information out there regarding exercise and nutrition is available from books or the internet for free! I just don't understand why someone would pay for something they can get for free, sure I'll admit that some personal trainers maybe able to impart some of their own personal experiences and wisdom but at the end of the day anyone can happily learn how to exercise for free.

It's not exactly hard to learn how to perform a bicep curl is it?

Personal trainers maybe useful for motivating an individual but at they end of the day they are definitely not a requirement for someone wanting to learn how to exercise.

Sorry that you have to hear that about your profession buts its the truth.



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 07:45 AM
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Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
 


you did notice I said "post-excercise stretching" right?
do you "loosen up" after your workout? didn't think so.
I will discuss it like a professional, do you get paid to train people also? cause if not ...well..r u a professional?How?


[edit on 1-8-2010 by Fifth Horseman]

[edit on 1-8-2010 by Fifth Horseman]


Great! Something I agree with you about, you shouldn't stretch before your exercise, better to get your heart rate up by doing 5 minutes of light cardio to get the blood flowing into the muscles.

Post exercise stretching is good and then ideally should be followed by a cool down which again is 5 mins of light cardio.

See look, I learnt that from reading books and the internet, I didn't need to gain a qualification...



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by Death_Kron

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
 


you did notice I said "post-excercise stretching" right?
do you "loosen up" after your workout? didn't think so.
I will discuss it like a professional, do you get paid to train people also? cause if not ...well..r u a professional?How?


[edit on 1-8-2010 by Fifth Horseman]

[edit on 1-8-2010 by Fifth Horseman]


Great! Something I agree with you about, you shouldn't stretch before your exercise, better to get your heart rate up by doing 5 minutes of light cardio to get the blood flowing into the muscles.

Post exercise stretching is good and then ideally should be followed by a cool down which again is 5 mins of light cardio.

See look, I learnt that from reading books and the internet, I didn't need to gain a qualification...
thanks for proving my point here.
why would you stretch and then go tighten the muscle back up by starting some light cardio again? This is backwards. The light cardio (45-55% MHR) is done to prevent veinous pooling in the muscle. This is FOLLOWED by static stretching to reset the resting length and allow metabolic by-products to be flushed out of the fatigued muscle. See how a little knowledge can be dangerous?
So do pro athletes use pro trainers or do they just read up on the net? Why do you supposed teams spend millions on getting good trainers if they can just read a couple books and call it good? Do you think they are CPTs among other things?
If you wouldn't mind please tell me what you know about doing a proper bicep curl and I will tell you something you missed/got wrong, for free.
Prior to this career I was an ASME certified TIG and MIG welder. I mainly worked on large gasoline and dairy tankers you see on the highway, with the shiny outer wrappers. Pressurized inner barrels moving down the road 55MPH. Would you feel good about a non-certified person doing the welding on that beast? Maybe a guy who tinkers in his garage and welded some bike frames back together? I know, lets go read about welding and then go build this thing together. Wait why do you keep asking questions? Strike an arc and lets go! Very detailed 3-d blueprints with hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions are at stake, if deadlines are not met. Not the time to F around. You better know what you are doing. Same goes for training an individual. you are affecting their health and wealth and better be offering extreme value (high results/sane price) if you would like to be a trainer.
You are ducking my questions about learning the arts vs. learning excercise. They both can be hampered by the individual whose glass is already full. By the way, who do you think wrote alot of the books and videos you are learning from...? One way or another you are the product of trainers, its just hard to admit isn't it?



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by Death_Kron
Great! Something I agree with you about, you shouldn't stretch before your exercise, better to get your heart rate up by doing 5 minutes of light cardio to get the blood flowing into the muscles.

Post exercise stretching is good and then ideally should be followed by a cool down which again is 5 mins of light cardio.

See look, I learnt that from reading books and the internet, I didn't need to gain a qualification...


OK, If I could have some clarification from some some of you please.

Before my actual workout, I use very light weights and go through all of the motions of what I will be doing with the heavy weights. At the end of every rep with these light weights I contract and expand my muscles at the top and bottom of the movement. I exaggerate the contraction and can feel the blood engorging in my muscles that are about to get a workout.

I also have an upbeat heart rate and a light sheen of sweat on me.

Now is this the stretching that is supposed to be not done or is everyone talking about just standing around and stretching.

I have been doing it this way for years and find that it does "prep" my body for what is coming and rather enjoy it.

What stretching exactly is everyone talking about that makes it so bad before exercise?

It seems I'm rather ignorant on this point and would like to not be..

:shk::shk:



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
One way or another you are the product of trainers, its just hard to admit isn't it?


Yes but.....The "trainers" that wrote those books have done it. (at least the ones I read).

They are not a product of book learnin, but rather the one that has been in the trenches and actually done it. The ones that have had to stop during squats to go puke, and then carry on.

I would rather learn from someone that's been there, before I want to learn from someone that just has the "book smarts".

If you catch my drift.......

although I do consider myself constantly learning everyday and have found that I do pick up some important information from some that have just passed the tests...

don't know it all...never will...but keep reading to get as much information as possible, and always ask if unsure...



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 08:51 AM
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reply to post by tribewilder
 


Nothing wrong with that mate, I used to do the same; take training chest for example, I used to do 3/4 sets of the smith machine doing standard bench press with just the bar for high-ish reps to get the blood flowing.

People are talking about not doing the static stretches that you would do before a session of PE at school for example.


[edit on 2/8/10 by Death_Kron]



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 08:56 AM
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reply to post by Fifth Horseman
 


Once again you've just proven that your a joke, your comparing working in a highly specific industrial occupation to lifting weights?

You still also haven't answered my question about could you learn a check hook from a book? No, you couldn't...

I don't really need you to tell me something "extra" about performing a bicep curl but just for the heck of it; grasp weight in palm, knuckles facing the ground and palm facing away from the body, lift weight up until just before shoulder level then lower weight back to starting position, 3/4 seconds lifting up, contract the muscle at the top of the exercise and then lower slightly slower than you lifted you as you work the muscles harder during the negative phase of any exercise.

There you go simple, information learned from the internet and books and its worked more than adequately for me so I don't see what "trainer knowledge" you can give me because anymore than the above I don't really need to know.



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by tribewilder
 


my whole purpose of stating my credentials was to lay the foundation from which to give professional advice. Not to seem arrogant in any way shape or form.
that being said, I have been in the trenches, puking, crying, bleeding to be sure. why would it be assumed otherwise?
when you say expanding know that this is not a function of muscle just to clarify. Static stretching is what is to be avoided pre workout. The reason being comes down to the relationship between the muscle spindle and the Golgi organ. When the Golgi organ senses a change in the length of the muscle, the spindle contracts as a protective measure. At approx. 20 -30 seconds of constant,low grade stretch the Golgi organ gives up and the muscle spindle relaxes, thus giving the muscle a temporary longer resting length. Pre workout, this leads to reduced power production and joint instability (BAD). Post workout, this leads to increased flexibility and faster healing. You will know when your resting length increases as the initial pain of stretching subsides and you can go further.
your preworkout routine sounds decent, I would simply include rotational movements for the joints as (outlined in one of my previous posts here). There really is no reason to include peak contractions in your warm up. moving through full ROM is sufficient and safer. The warm up also prepares the neuro-muscular system for action, by reminding the body what is about to happen. Is there a difference between my answer and Death Kron's..I think so.



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
reply to post by tribewilder
 

Is there a difference between my answer and Death Kron's..I think so.


That's exactly my point, its great that you know the full explanation of why stretching before working out is bad but 99.9% of the population do not need to know the specific explanations as to why its a bad idea.

It's more than enough to simply learn that's stretching before training is a no-no. Do you know the exact reasons why you shouldn't drink a bottle of acid? No you don't but you do know that its a bad idea and it would kill you so you don't do it, simple.

I'm pretty sure most professional bodybuilders couldn't give the explanation you just did about pre-workout stretching but they don't need to so they don't do it.

I'm not knocking your knowledge but simply saying that the majority of the population don't need to know it, you can learn that its bad to stretch before a workout on the internet or in a book...

I am knocking your attitude because you appear to have a self inflated ego and rather than offer your advice in a helpful manner you seem more obsessed with pointing out peoples "flaws" in their advice.

No one like a know it all mate, could you tell me how to configure inter VLAN routing between two Cisco routers over a serial line? I'm willing to bet you couldn't, I could tell you how to do it but I'm not sitting here bragging about the fact...

[edit on 2/8/10 by Death_Kron]



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