If Islam Is Peace, Smoking Does Not Cause Cancer.

I'm here to analyze some statistics. It's not what you say, it's how you say it, right?

Statistically, life-long heavy-smokers of cigarettes have a 3% chance of dying from lung cancer.

Statistically, surveys done worldwide show that 9% of the world's Muslims support terrorism.

So, the vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving, and at the same time, the vast majority of smokers will never get lung cancer.

I'm writing this thread in response to Ramsey's statements about Islam & Sharia Law that were criticized by CAIR and Islamic supporters. The man was simply stating that Sharia Law was not compatible with the constitution/freedom.

Now I must make some comparisons. One will be religious and one political.

#1, Catholicism has a separation of Church & State, while Islam does not. Abortion is considered murder to Catholics. If a Catholic disagrees, that person is NOT Catholic anymore. Islam's Sharia Law states that an apostate (someone who leaves Islam) should be killed. If a Muslim disagrees, that person is NOT Muslim anymore. The difference between the two religions is this: Abortion is illegal in 3 majority Catholic countries (El Salvador, Malta, and Chile), while apostasy is illegal in some of the largest and most populous Islamic nations (Saudi Arabia & Iran, while in most Islamic nations an individual would almost surely be killed and the police would look the other way). This shows that there is not a separation of church & state in Islam.

#2, Geert Wilders, the Dutch politician, is about to go on trail for inciting hatred, because he quoted the Koran. He made a movie showing quotes of the Koran with acts of terrorism. Now, I personally think of him as a hypocrite simply because he preaches "Freedom of Speech" while wanting to ban the Koran, but the man makes a lot of sense in other ways. He is a far-LEFT politician, while being labeled as a far-right (by the MSM). He is all for women's rights, gay-rights, etc. . . which in Islamic Sharia Law is blasphemy. Sharia Law is, plain & simple, against freedom, against women's equal rights, against ANY gay rights, against any minority-religion's equal rights, and Geert Wilders was just pointing out that simple fact.

I don't want people to think I'm against Islam or Muslims. I have Muslims friends, and they have their little explanations for everything, which never have convinced me, even though I am open minded. I have no problem with Islam or Sharia Law, as long as it stays on the other side of the world, and the Muslims in "the West" stop complaining about every little inconvenience.

Muslims in America feel discriminated against. I would love to support them, but the only problem is, non-Muslims in Islamic countries are much, much more discriminated against. When the American-Muslims begin to protest against the treatment of non-Muslims in Islamic countries, I'll begin to see them as compatible with the American constitution. But sadly, as I've explained, once they begin these protests against Sharia Law worldwide, they are no longer true Muslims, just as a pro-choice Catholic is no longer a true Catholic.

If you don't believe that non-Muslims in Islamic countries are more discriminated against than Muslims in America, you are either delusional or not educated properly.

Two wrongs don't make a right, so I'm NOT condoning discrimination against American-Muslims. Discrimination is bad on both sides, but the non-Muslims are dealing with harsher realities in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan.

Any thoughts? Agree or Disagree?

I have a few personal questions for you:
Have you ever been in one of these countries that you speak of?
Have you socialized with the people in that country?
Have you been there for longer than 3 months?
Are your facts based on personal experience or what you read on the media?

Do you know any muslims?

BUT, smoking a Qur'an can kill you, especially if you light it up in public near a mosque.

reply to post by bettermakings


You acknowledge that American-Muslims face discrimination and that you feel it's wrong but you won't be a voice for them because of other countries that don't have a Constitution and Bill of Rights like America does, treats non-Muslims even worse? Why should it matter what other countries do? Sounds downright anti-American to me.

Here's a news bulletin, Muslims also suffer at the hand of their gov'ts.

Sources?

I'm incredibly curious about the 9% of muslims supporting terrorism, as that number seems tiny compared to other surveys where they are pro suicide bombing in a circumstance listed.

Muslims in America feel discriminated against.

......Every religious group feels discriminated against, ask a christian, (in the USA, majority christians) if they feel discriminated against for their religion, and you'll get a surefire yes.

I have no problem with Islam or Sharia Law, as long as it stays on the other side of the world

You have no problem with women being beaten and raped to death for not wearing a hijab or niqab? Female Genital Mutilation? Tyrannical leaders torturing their subjects?

You must be one chill dude if that stuff is not a problem in your eyes.

Me

Skittle
I have a few personal questions for you: Have you ever been in one of these countries that you speak of?
Have you socialized with the people in that country?
Have you been there for longer than 3 months?
Are your facts based on personal experience or what you read on the media?
Do you know any muslims?

Yes yes yes yes yes

Originally posted by Skittle
I have a few personal questions for you:
Have you ever been in one of these countries that you speak of?
Have you socialized with the people in that country?
Have you been there for longer than 3 months?
Are your facts based on personal experience or what you read on the media?

Do you know any Muslims?

Look at what Islam brought to bosina, people are angry and yet still without jobs, maybe i should be asking you.


What has Islam brought to bosnia? it seems to me that your defending islam with everything you got.


If islam was prefect there weren't be any ex-Muslims right buddie?


Ask me this, why are women who want to leave Islam are forced and threatened with force or even stoning ?

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
BUT, smoking a Qur'an can kill you, especially if you light it up in public near a mosque.

I prefer my qu'ran to be stuffed with my own herbal remedy and spice. Makes for more "enlightening" qu-ran sessions



for relevence: christianity and jeudaism arent exactly all peaches and cherries. Sure, its easy to pick on the one most controversial to our western theology, but throw your self in the shoes of a happy, devout muslim family and you might find another bone to pick...

[edit on 27-7-2010 by SPACEYstranger]

Two wrongs don't make a right, so I'm NOT condoning discrimination against American-Muslims. Discrimination is bad on both sides, but the non-Muslims are dealing with harsher realities in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan.

Let me paint you a different picture...

The countries you mention are probably a bad place to be when you are not a Muslim.
However, compared with the west, they are probably a worse place to be anyway, for anybody.

Above that they hold only a fraction of the worlds Muslims. A lot more Muslims live in countries where there are no problems within the different religious groups.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Oh, I must have forgotten about the violent jihad against non-Muslims in Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Uganda, Niger, Maldives, Algeria, Libya, Morocco, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia. . . . . .

In fact, the countries with the least religious persecution/discrimination are almost never Muslim countries. . . . .

The countries with the least religious persecution are the free-western countries. They aren't perfect, but are better than the rest of the world. The "West" is probably the safest place for a Muslim to leave Islam.

By the way, how many Iranian-Americans left Islam when they left Iran? Last I heard it was over 30%. Oh, yes, freedom of religion, and freedom to leave a religion, or even criticize a religion, does not exist everywhere.

reply to post by bettermakings


I hear ya, personally i think the Koran / Quaran is a good way to live...... 2000 years ago

Though saying that a TRUE muslim doesnt want sharia law everywhere, doesnt want to treat his wife like **** and will NEVER kill an innocent human being.

We need to understand that this 9% who support terror have been brainwashed just like most US & UK people are being brainwashed to hate them.

EG: Mosque at Ground Zero....YOU WHAT
I can almost bet my house that most US muslims dont want that and if the US governemnt cared they wouldnt allow it.
But they are doing it to create hate towards islam thus giving them the bearings for War....this time its IRAN you mark my words

We are ALL puppets to the grand scheme thats being going on for god knows how long.

Originally posted by bettermakings
I have no problem with Islam or Sharia Law, as long as it stays on the other side of the world

That's funny because a lot of muslims would like you to keep your bigotry, pathetic double standard morals, fake democracy and freedom in your part of the world. Except you don't do you.

Visit a muslim country. I know that would mean leaving your comfortable little bubble of ignorance and comfort of the wonderful fatherland of good ol USA, but you might actually learn something and be quite surprised.

Utter garbage of a thread. Huge amounts of ignorance, fear and miseducation...all the requirements for a typical thread on ATS. Congrats.
शुक्रिया

Edit, oh yeah, prove your stats or you are talking sh!t.


[edit on 28-7-2010 by Frakkerface]

reply to post by Frakkerface


Here's a good link, showing surveys done (Muslim opinions on the legitimacy of terrorism):

www.cnsnews.com...

Here are some more:
pewresearch.org...
www.rferl.org...
people-press.org...
pewresearch.org...
www.cbsnews.com...

and:
islamineurope.blogspot.com...

As for my "fake democracy and freedom" I'm not saying America is perfect. America is not a free country anymore, but it's MORE free than most of the rest of the world, especially most Islamic countries.

By the way, without revealing too much information about myself, I probably know more about Islam and Muslims than you think.

There ARE Muslim countries where they DO treat minorities fairly equally. IF I was going to visit an Islamic country, I'd choose either Jordan or Syria, where a large number of minorities such as Christians live, and they live in relative peace with each other. Lebanon once was that way, and Iraq was even once that way.

Actually, the Northern Iraq Kurdish region is friendly to minorities as well. It's the safest place in Iraq, and do you know why? They have the least number of Muslim fanatics/radicals compared to the rest of the country.

"ignorance, fear and miseducation" you claim. The facts are all there. It's in the surveys when they ask Muslims themselves. It's in the Koran & Hadith, and preached by their Imams (to the ignorant). It's in the actions of the radicals all over the world, and the general silence of moderates who fear the radicals (yes, fear). It's in the miseducation preached by Muslims that Islam progressed science more than any other religion (by the way, where to the architects come from in Dubai? oh yeah, they import non-Muslims from Western countries), or that they are the innocent victims while everyone is the aggressor (I don't see non-Muslims rioting in Muslim countries the way Muslims riot in France).

But anyways, I'm open minded. If you can convince me that Islam is peace & love, go ahead and try. I do know many, many "Muslims" by the way, and most of them are just "Muslim" in name-only, just like the "Catholics" I know are only "Catholic" in name only.

A "real" Catholic MUST be pro-choice and against gay-marriage, JUST AS a "real" Muslim MUST support the killing of apostates and adulterers.

I don't think you understand, just as this girl is saying:
www.youtube.com...

I think it's wrong to single out a religion for this kind of ridicule. All religions are hypocritical. They all claim to support peace, yet when war comes, they're all ready to fight one another, even their "brothers."

The issue here I suppose is not so much about what others believe, nor do anyone cares about how others live.

The issue have to do with fears, fear of Sharia or Islamic law becoming the law of the land, espacially with mass immigration nowadays due to economic opportunities and rumours of war, with those immigrants possibly forming a majority one day soon and becoming vocal and might succeed in changing the constitutions of nations.

It may or may not be a reality, and no one truly knows the future. Muslims too are only humans, with the capacity to change, to rationalize, to comprehend their surroundings and their stakes in society for themselves and their next generations, just like any westerner.

We are all one race - human first before our differences set us apart, but it will be our common aspirations for equality, peace, prosperity and progress that will unite us all one day.

As for the fear of Sharia law, as well as its harshness, one must confront fears by knowledge.

The muslim sprang up during the 7th Century in the middle east. It was a land of utter barbarism and cruel acts by despots of far flung empires, amidst the acrid and cruel hot deserts sands with cold sub temp nights as well as fierce sandstorms.

Only nomads eke a living in that harsh climate, and lives made bitter by it, further fueled by cruel despots who cared not a fig for the common people and determined to keep them stupid while squeezing them of every drachma they possess.

And it was there that the good prophet Muhammad, blessed be his name, came into the picture and led the arabians to greatness, conquering the rough land as well as the grim people who lived there, and brought our Creator's message of salvation and love to them.

Many take issue with the seemingly unrelenting laws, but it was a dour land filled with ruthless people that lived there. Western civilisation with its bounty of climate and fertile lands bred beauty and inspired beautiful thoughts and words into their civilisation and books.

For the arabs, they had NONE of such opportunities and thus much of the language used was course, to make the people relate to it and comprehend.

While the laws seemed unfeeling, it does mean the same thing and purpose of the western concept of justice by our Creator. The good will be helped and blessed, and the bad punished, except that it was couched in a courser language from a bleak climate and not one of Western bounties, and thus conflicts with the fortunate western culture.

And such bleakness continued and made worse by rulers/Caliphs who seized power and ruled the land ruthlessly for centuries till 1911 when the Caliphate was mercifully destroyed by the Almighty.

But no matter how painful the laws were, the beauty of the religion still remains, made more so when some of the more enlightened muslims who moved from the deserts to walled cities and gardens as can be found in the Koran.

Unfortunately, the arab kids after 1911 had not the opportunities a western kid had of education. Traditions die hard, and only in recent times had more muslim kids had the chance to know the world better and what democracy entails, a chance for change to the original course that the good prophet Muhammad had in stored for his people.

We all are one people and come from the same Creator after all.

And it will be these muslims who will lead the next generations of the faith, back on the path that was envisioned by the prophet, and contribute to each and every society as all humans would, IF only we the rest of the world would give them the chance, instead of labelling them all as radicals to serve our masters agendas to keep humanity divided.

I am from Switzerland, one of the countries in Europe facing many issues with Islam and immigration. I moved to the United States 10 years ago. It's very obvious that the religion of Islam has moved into Europe in the last few decades with great presence. Followers of the religion have been easily granted not only entrance into many European countries, but many financial benefits have been given for the reason of being persecuted. Of course there were problems before this significant rise in immigration that includes a large majority of Islamic followers, but there is an obvious rise of many political, social and economic issues in correlation with the amount of immigration. The justice system even seems to be letting serious crimes go with very little care for any safety for the public. It's pretty shocking when you compare the justice system of the United States with that of some European nations like Switzerland. The parties that provide for immigrants are just inviting more trouble into the country. It has literally brought so much conflicting issues that are absolutely unnecessary.

Is there a reason for this movement? Is there something that those in power are benefiting from in this case?

I am very tolerant to different religions, especially Islam. I have found it interesting, along with the rest of the culture and it's origins. I'm not exactly religious, but I consider myself Pantheist.

I think this IS conspiracy. I do not know of the workings or intentions behind it, but it's clear that there are many people conspiring towards something.

I wonder if this some kind of deal that has been agreed upon. Europe may be the new holy land for Islam. Maybe there has been an exchange. Could Zionism be involved here?

One more thing that those who discriminates against muslim immigrants may want to consider.

The religion of Islams teaches the believer to be independent. There are no intermediaries between Allah the merciful and believers, unlike the christian faith that need intermediaries such as the pope, the bishop, the priests, etc, etc.

It is a PERSONAL communication between the Almighty and the believer. The imman or teacher only explains the texts and does not lead the congregation, or not to suppose to, as dictated by the teachings of the good prophet Muhammad.

Thus, the eventual actions made by the muslim is one of his own choice, on his own free will and not supposed to be influence by anyone else.

Unfortunately, for centuries, the muslims and beloved of the good prophet Muhammad, had been kept uneducated by eastern PTB, and milked fully dry for their honest labour and kept that way for millenia. Thus the dependence on the village, usually a PTB puppet taught in religious school and not secular ones, ruled over them.

But times had change. More and more muslims are exposed to the beauty of western environment, as well as it ugliness, and more aware of the concepts and doctrines of democracy and true merciful judical systems to ensure at least harmony if not peace exists within a society.

Having come from a brutal tradiation, only because it was a bleak environment that they had to adapt to live in, they too will be changed and transformed, more so when they come under the noble founding fathers conceptions of human rights.

No more are they slaves to an illiterate village chief or imman, but a free man under the constitution, with full rights to it. Woe betide an imman who denounces an american muslim in his home if he refused to follow that imman's fatwa.

The american muslim's right to the 2nd amendment as well as his divine right to access directly to his Almighty will send that imman running off with his tail between his legs, the way the Iranians cannot do so now due to their constitution of not allowing them weapons and thus their subjugation.

He may be protective of his children, as all parents will be, regardless of whatever religion or nationality, and insist upon covering up them, but only to prevent them from being bullied or taken away. It is only a piece of cloth and a right as a parent, at least till the child turns independent at 21.

If any american muslim women who insist on covering up themselves, it is only for self protection against the evil elements that exist in all societies. If a father insists, it is only out of paternal love to protect his child and loved ones that no man has the right to question.

It is only the burka that may pose questions as it covers up a woman, or even males entirely to do nefarious harm to others. Thus there is a genuine concern over this, but then it is a resolvable issue and not one that will divide a community, so long as it is discussed from heartfelt concerns and not one of hate or discrimination.

These are just the tip of the iceburg that I can think of, on the concerns of the immigrant muslim community. I do believe that we all share more common aspirations in life than differences, and it be reconciled, enough that we can embrace each other as brothers instead of enemity of hate, even though i know that those who judge a person by his color, black or white, will never agree, but then they are only a minority. It's the majority, you and I that counts.

With that hand extended out, we may resolve the hatred and divisions amongst us humanity and evolve for a common future, regardless of our differences, for we are ONE race, the human race, with common aspirations and goals.

We are one family, of brothers and sisters, better off helping one another than to hate and kill of each other...

SeekerofTruth101: "common aspirations and goals"

Muslims & non-Muslims generally-speaking do not have the same goals.

I understand much of what you said. The problem is that Muslims are connected to Islam with the Koran, which may have been good in the 7th century, but now, with the separation of church & state, it is not compatible with the modernizing & secular world.

I could say the same about the Old Testament/Torah/Jewish-Bible (which I also consider primitive, without a separation of church & state), but the number of Orthodox Jews is small, and except for Israel their power is not strong. The Jews who "control" many of the corporations/media are secular, so their religion is not as big of a threat today. They don't stone adulterers in Israel, even if their "Bible" says so, but Islamic countries DO stone the adulterer. Israel COULD have Jewish Law as the law of the land, but they don't.

I could mention Radical Christianity. In some areas of the world homosexuals are killed by Radical Christians, for example, but they are actually going against the New Testament / Christian Bible, which has a strict separation of church & state, unlike the Koran. The New Testament's belief is that God is the only judge, and the homosexual will be punished after death, accordingly. They are not following Christianity by killing homosexuals, but Muslims ARE following Islam when they stone the adulteress, because to a Muslim, God's judgment can be enforced by man.

I DO know the history of Islam, and know that the modern violent "Jihad" movement has not always existed to such an extent. In the 1950s in Baghdad, many Jews, Christians, and Muslims ALL lived in peace with each other, just as in Lebanon, etc.. The facts are clear that Muslims were the aggressors in the majority of cases against Christians. Jews have been aggressors against Muslims but only in the immediate area around Israel, so their reach is not far, unlike Radical Islam.

SeekerofTruth101, if you are a moderate Muslim, you should use some of your time/money/energy to moderate the Radicals of your religion. If non-Muslims try to moderate Islam they are called Islamophobic or discriminatory, so it is only the Muslims themselves who can modernize/secularize their religion.

I did not even bother to read the thread due to its stupid premise. And while I am no fan of Islam (all religion is man made efforts at subjugation of others), Christians have no claim to decency. The Inquisition was not at the hands of Islamic men. The Crusades were not actions taken by followers of Islam.

For that matter, Anglo Christians -- have caused most of the grief worldwide over the past few centuries. World Wars, massive slavery, brutal colonizing of less developed counties, artificial partitioning of borders that led to even worse tribalism...

Face it, we are as much barbarians as any other culture. Evangelical "Christians" just happen to be the most arrogant of barbarians.

Originally posted by bettermakings


Statistically, surveys done worldwide show that 9% of the world's Muslims support terrorism.

9% of English speaking respondents? Or was the survey issued in Arab?

The Pew survey also showed that 38 percent of Americans believe Islam encourages violence more than other religions

Source

I would say the propganda in the US is much more effective in changing our minds about Islam.

Here is the deal. Murder is wrong in all Big 3 religions. How the leaders of those organizations lead their organizations does not equal the teachings of their Holy books.

reply to post by zroth


I say, what is defined as "murder" is different in each of the BIG 3.

Also when it comes to "propaganda" in America, are you talking about people quoting the Koran? That's not propaganda, that's called quoting the Koran.


OH, and to pajoly:

I never said Christianity was perfect. On the contrary I think any extremist religion is dangerous. (Radical) Atheism is not perfect either, looking at how China persecutes any & all religions, as well as the former USSR, etc, ... All that I'm saying is that Islam is not peace.