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The "Facts" of the bible and where we come from

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posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by undo
this guy explains who the serpent was, and why it's important we understand the language involved in the story. he tries to explain that the word for serpent there is nachash, and that the text is telling you that the nachash wasn't a snake.

the nachash and his seed, some explanatory notes on why the serpent in genesis 3 wasn't a serpent
Michael S. Heiser, PhD
xr.com...


Who are you responding to? What question asked in the OP or by anyone else RELATING to the OP are you answering? It was entertaining at first but what I had hoped would be a way to understand the types of people that take the bible AS WRITTEN TODAY literally. There is a vast rift in my family as some members have become "saved" in recent years and decided to hate any of us not going on that journey with them. They say things that at times seem crazy to me, other times seem misunderstood. They say things I see repeated on ATS all the time. I was hoping to find some answers to the questions I have about how or why people believe in this manner.

Thank you for killing that.




posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


hey i know the feeling. i am, if nothing else, extremely understanding about other people's situations, particularly where it comes to people harrassing you within your own peer or family group, over your life choices. i was just attempting to further elucidate my original statement here. asking people to explain why they believe the current translation of the text is the perfect word of god, is not going to glean you answers that will actually answer your big underlying question, other than what you already know and don't agree with in the first place. if you want to wrap your head around it, consider that many people know almost nothing about the old testament.

christians, as a general rule, read the new testament almost exclusively, with forays into old testament prophecy, and sunday school lessons such as basic retelling of noah and the flood, daniel in the lion's den, adam and eve in the garden, joseph and his coat of many colors, for example.



[edit on 22-7-2010 by undo]



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


hey i know the feeling. i am, if nothing else, extremely understanding about other people's situations, particularly where it comes to people harrassing you within your own peer or family group, over your life choices. i was just attempting to further elucidate my original statement here. asking people to explain why they believe the current translation of the text is the perfect word of god, is not going to glean you answers that will actually answer your big underlying question,


Please just stop. There is no underlying question. You are attempting to tell me what I really want to know? The questions I have clearly stated are the ones I want to know. Nothing about lizard people is going to help understand why my cousin patty uses here understanding of the literal bible to tell me who the current anti-christ is.

Do not pretend you know more about me than you do. I have been nothing but forthright here and made clear what it is I am trying to find out. You have spent pages going as far off topic as possible only to invite matrix traveler to take a trip even further off topic.


other than what you already know and don't agree with in the first place. if you want to wrap your head around it, consider that many people know almost nothing about the old testament.


I am not trying to find out more about the old testament. I could really care less to at this point. But hey, do not let your empathy and understanding of me asking you to stop posting off topic get in the way of your posting off topic. You have killed it for me so the thread is all yours now.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 09:49 AM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


your questions are all old testament. i mean, how's a person going to answer your questions about old testament beliefs if they can only do so without actually referencing the old testament?

listen, every response i've made in your thread has been to answer either your questions or someone else's. you're prejudicing the answers by requiring fundies only answer using material that you already know doesn't make sense in its current incarnation. the big question is then: do you want answers or not?



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


your questions are all old testament. i mean, how's a person going to answer your questions about old testament beliefs if they can only do so without actually referencing the old testament?


Just because I still have a small amount of sympathy for you I am going to explain this for about the hundredth time. I am not

NOT

not trying to understand the old testament better myself. I am trying to understand people that

TAKE IT AS WRITTEN TODAY.

These people do not care about your lizard people. They just believe the words that they read in their bibles today. I am trying to understand

THEM

NOT THEIR BOOK.


listen, every response i've made in your thread has been to answer either your questions or someone else's. you're prejudicing the answers by requiring fundies only answer using material that you already know doesn't make sense in its current incarnation. the big question is then: do you want answers or not?


Not anymore. I had a real genuine interest in the workings of the mind of a segment of people. That is why I addressed my questions to them. You pretending to speak for someone else is disingenuous from the start. Either way, my genuine interest in attempting to understand a certain type of person is all but shot with this try. You wanted it, you got it.

I know it does not make sense in its current incarnation to me.

BUT IT DOES TO THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I wanted THEM to explain to me WHY THEY BELIEVE IT AS IT IS IN ITS CURRENT INCARNATION!!!!!


You know, I even tried hard as I could to buck the trend on ATS of any religiously themed thread merely being a place of hostile petty bickering. I thought I was polite and I thought people were giving honest respectful answers. Some I questioned further, some I did not. How silly of me. I should have just said "Christians are stupid" then I would have 1000 pages of which to just ignore you and not even notice. MY MISTAKE TRYING TO politely ASK PEOPLE WHY THEY BELIEVE WHAT THEY DO. I guess I need to say everything a few times to you.

I am not sure why you are still so confused by I have said the same thing over and over and over again. I am not trying to understand the roots of the bible. I am not trying to understand all Christian beliefs. I am not trying to understand YOU.

I tried to be nice and respectful and ask questions without derision and accusations and pointless bickering. That has proven my folly. I have asked you respectfully to stop with your off topic Icke flavored diatribe at least 3 times. Your response...

...in better helping me understand the Christian bible...

has been to tell me to stick my respectful request up my ass.
I am so sorry you are so confused but ATS is a big place and there are plenty of threads you could have hijacked that are actually about the bible's roots or lizard people or both. You can even start your own. This is not about that. This is about the current bible and the people that just accept it at its word.

Asking nicely did nothing to sway you which tells me you must not be nice. I do not need bible lessons from people who are not nice and cannot be respectful of others. Enjoy your thread.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


well fine, but if you don't really want the answers to begin with (cause you don't believe anything they say from the get go, not even those who have went the extra mile and given you original translations, scholarly articles, references outside the christian mainstream, and etc) wouldn't this thread be more of an example of taking a mistake in old science (they have made mistakes in the past) and asking you to explain why you believe in science?

yes, mr. op, can you explain why you believe in spontaneous generation, oh and please do so using only the articles that originally argued in its favor. ty. and can you explain how you, as a science afficiando, believe this is true in light of the evidence against it ?

being fundie myself, when i read your question, i addressed it to myself and my position. maybe the problem is here that not all fundies look alike but will still see you asking THEM the question (which i did).



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


well fine, but if you don't really want the answers to begin with (cause you don't believe anything they say from the get go, not even those who have went the extra mile and given you original translations, scholarly articles, references outside the christian mainstream, and etc) wouldn't this thread be more of an example of taking a mistake in old science (they have made mistakes in the past) and asking you to explain why you believe in science?


I am seriously convinced you are just being this way on purpose. It would be the same as finding someone who holds steadfastly to the already failed science and asking them why they do.


yes, mr. op, can you explain why you believe in spontaneous generation, oh and please do so using only the articles that originally argued in its favor. ty. and can you explain how you, as a science afficiando, believe this is true in light of the evidence against it ?


Sounds like an interesting idea for a thread. Do you just no know how to start one?


being fundie myself, when i read your question, i addressed it to myself and my position. maybe the problem is here that not all fundies look alike but will still see you asking THEM the question (which i did).


No, the problem is that you have proven again and again to not understand what a fundie is. There would need to be lizard people in the bible for that to be a FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF.

Now you seem angry. Leave me alone. Stop responding to me. Go back to MT and whoever else and rant on about sleestacks. I said I was out, did I not? Get over it and enjoy.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


i said fine
several times. i'm just responding to what you say in your subsequent responses. hey, i'm learning how to be assertive. how'm i doing?
you don't want me to respond, so i won't. but don't think i'm not because you've shamed me into being less than assertive in my convictions (i mean, aren't you asserting yourself and your position now? don't answer that cause it'll make you angry that you feel compelled, as i did, to respond! i know you're being assertive and that you're speaking from what you feel to be a superior position ).

how about we bury the hatchet and agree that it was a case of misunderstanding on my part. i thought you wanted fundies to respond, and i saw the questions as misleading and requiring the impossible (et.al, prove that the current incarnation of the text is accurate and reasonable (knowing the whole time that it isn't)), all that to strengthen your current position on the topic. maybe a therapy session that went awry cause some know-it-all weirdo fundie stuck her nose in it.

yeah my sister told me, she said, "sister, you need to stay away from controversial topics." and i was like "but why??" and she said, "because people get angry and then it starts a negative chain reaction, which ends up impacting your health." and i was like "but shouldn't i want to learn and discuss and assert myself?" and she said "not about controversial topics."
so perhaps ATS is not for me, eh? i shouldn 't ask, question or disagree. just go with the flow and keep my reasoning, truth seeking, research and so forth, to myself? whatdya think? (don't answer that, it'll make ya angry).

some folks learn by debate and discussion, which apparently is not the best way to learn.....apparently.

bye and i will avoid responding in your future threads, if any. start another one and i'll pretend its not there.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by undo


bye and i will avoid responding in your future threads, if any. start another one and i'll pretend its not there.



Well that seems a bit jouvenile. I simply asked that you respect my request from people about the bible as it is today and stop pages and pages and pages of crap about lizard people. I never attacked you personally or anything else you do on ATS. I am sure you have great threads that I could even learn a thing or two from. I would not shut myself off from that just because I see you as the author. If that is how you feel, fine.

I am puzzled though. I asked you over and over and over again to just stop talking about lizard people that have nothing to do with my OP and you flat out refused. Now that I tell you I have lost all interest in the thread and it is yours, you pout and storm off like a child. So be it. I hope you are proud of what you accomplished.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


what have i accomplished? i said, let's just chalk it up to my misunderstanding of your op, which i thought was misleading because it requires people to answer you with a text written in a language that doesn't do the original language, justice, nor does it make the playing field level. it slants it decidedly in your favor and that my friend is like drugging the guy you are planning to beat the hell out of as soon as he's incapable of actually defending himself.

if you want real answers to your questions, you can expect people will give you their version of real answers. in my mind, part of that included misunderstandings regarding the events surrounding and connected to your questions. and i've told you that several times as well.

in addition, you seemed irritated enough with me that i thought being relieved of ever having me comment in your threads again, would be welcome, not translated to mean that i'm being spitefully juvenile. do you want me to comment in your threads or not? cause next time may not look any different than this time and this time hasn't been a real positive point in my day.

perhaps you are getting your psychological evaluations from a slanted source.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by css1981
To me the bible is also a beautifull book with a lot of beautifull stories inside... But I guess I am reading it from a different side of view..



A good example Judges 19:1-30 is a pretty "beautiful" story.

It starts to get good at 19:22

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."

SPOILER ALERT
She gets gang raped and murdered.

Brink Testament for the lulz
www.thebricktestament.com...

Sorry for staying off topic.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 10:14 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by LoneExplorer
What a crap thread. Hardly anything new though !

Anything gained from it ? NO, because the questions were stacked from the outset.


The questions were simple questions about the bible. If they come across as stacked then perhaps the bible is at fault for not being perfect?


Atheists don't want answers. They are hostile and belittling


Good thing you bolded that or else it might seem hostile. Can you point out the hostile atheist posts in this thread? I would like to correct these ruffians for you. Just a page and post number is all I need.


All they want to do is tell you that you are wrong.


Then why are you posting here? Randyvs has 4 or 5 threads about what pieces of crap non-christians are. Maybe you would feel better over there where it is way less hostile
.


I wonder if ATS stands for Atheist Training Services?

They seem to be killing this place.


Yeah, check the religion forum sometimes for a small dose of reality.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 10:35 PM
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God said"Let us make man in our image."Apparently he was NOT alone. There are too many things in the bible that dont make sense.If you read Zecharia Sitchens books,things make much more sense.The authors of the bible were just rewriting the ancient Sumerian writings.Sitchen may not be 100% right on everything, but he makes way more sense than the bible authors.And i dont think he is far off to be honest.I suggest reading his books,even if you dont agree with him they are great reads if your into ancient history.



posted on Jul, 22 2010 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by starseed33
 


His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace-Eph2

And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you.-Eze25.18

"Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."-2Cor13.1


[edit on by No King but Jesus]



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 12:09 AM
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Originally posted by undo
do you want me to comment in your threads or not? cause next time may not look any different than this time and this time hasn't been a real positive point in my day.

perhaps you are getting your psychological evaluations from a slanted source.


I am not sure what you mean about the psych nonsense but if what you are saying is that you will continue to invade threads to post 3 pages of off topic, unrelated nonsense - ignoring repeated requests to stop and pretending you cannot grasp the point of the OP until it is explained half a dozen times, then no.



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


now you know the 3 pages of reptilian info was just me responding to one of the other posters in the thread, who asked me for data on the subject, which i then proceeded to provide.

in your op you said:


Any time there is a really good discussion about the logistics of the bible fairy tales, they go nowhere


i jumped on that cause i had geological evidence to provide, proving that there was indeed a flood, in just about the right time frame, however, i also knew that the english translation had added words that made certain parts of the story different than originally worded, such as saying every or all, when neither word was in the original verse. add to that the interpretation and teaching that there were 2 of every animal on the planet, on the ark, which is not what the text says, as i have shown in the thread.

you also said:


If any fundamentalist Christians out there have some answers, that would be just dandy


you can see that i was indeed addressing not only your first statement and but also your first request, in your op. i also provided evidence from science, as is indicated by the videos of the 2 geologists from oxford.

anyway, i don't know how you could construe that i didn't answer your op at all.



[edit on 23-7-2010 by undo]



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 12:30 AM
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reply to post by starseed33
 


You wrote.... Quote;



God said "Let us make man in our image."Apparently he was NOT alone.


The bible (The Roman Collection of Greek and Hebrew writings) is NOT the Word.

These writings were inspired by God and written by others called "Scribes", and then Translated by "Scribes" human beings i.e. the Descendants of A'DAM.

The answer can be found in "The Gospel According to John" Ch. 1 V. 1 to 4



1. In the beginning was the WORD,
and The Word was with GOD,
and The Word was G O D.

2. He was in the beginning with God.

3. All things were made through Him
and without Him nothing was made
that was made.

4. In Him was LIFE,
and the Life was the LIGHT of Men.


So God has 2 Components mentioned here ???

a. The WORD
b. The LIFE or LIGHT of Men.

Hence "Let Us make Man in our Image"

i.e. the 2 Base Parts of God.

In the original Greek the word used for "LIGHT" (ΦΩΣ) refers to Sun LIGHT (Not the Sun but the LIGHT of the Sun) or any other LIGHT Emitting from a heavenly body. (Star)

It does Not say God created A'DAM in their Image but Rather MAN.

A'DAM is the "Primate" but MAN is the "Soul", but that’s another story....

J.C. is referred to as "The Son of MAN"... Not The Son of A'DAM..



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 12:36 AM
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reply to post by The Matrix Traveller
 


i hate to break it to you tmt, but the word man is not in there. it's 'adam, every time. the english translators changed it from adam to man in several places. they shouldn't have done that.

for example, there's several verses later on the old testament in which the word man appears twice n the same sentence, but lo' and behold, the original words for those two instances are totally different. in the same sentence, enosh is translated man and adam is translated man. that were a no-no. they should've left it as enosh and adam. other examples are ish and adam, both translated man. that's the kinda thing that throws every thing off



[edit on 23-7-2010 by undo]



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by undo
i jumped on that cause i had geological evidence to provide, proving that there was indeed a flood, in just about the right time frame, however, i also knew that the english translation had added words that made certain parts of the story different than originally worded, such as saying every or all, when neither word was in the original verse.


Be straight with me just this once. Are you playing dumb for a reason? You cannot possible still not understand why I do not want your added info about the origins of the words. How many different ways does it need to be stated to you?

The very people I am trying to understand DO NOT CARE ABOUT ANY OF THAT. So you helping me understand it WILL NOT DO A DAMN THING to help me understand people that do not give any of that any attention.

How can I make this clear to you? What words are you waiting to hear that will finally get you to spread your nonsense elsewhere or actually respond in a manner that shows you understand one word I have said?


add to that the interpretation and teaching that there were 2 of every animal on the planet, on the ark, which is not what the text says, as i have shown in the thread.


Are you ok?

I do not know how I can possible make this more clear to you which is why I guess your absence is about the only thing you can offer me.

I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Need me to say it again or explain it again?

I am trying to find out about the people that I know and that I see on ATS that put 100% faith in the bible

as it is written in English today.

How do you still not understand that going back to original texts does NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THAT UNDERSTANDING.

You seem hell bent on helping me understand the bible better. I DO NOT WANT TO. Are you just trying to see if you can make me nuts?

I am specifically talking about the people that read the current English translations of the bible and believe it in the words they read. Not what insight they might find if they study Hebrew, Annunaki, or Sleestacks.

How is this so confusing for you? Can I make it more simple? More clear?


you also said:


If any fundamentalist Christians out there have some answers, that would be just dandy


you can see that i was indeed addressing not only your first statement and but also your first request, in your op. i also provided evidence from science, as is indicated by the videos of the 2 geologists from oxford.


Calling yourself a fundamentalist Christian does not qualify you to answer questions I DID NOT ASK ANYONE. You saw fundie and decided to school me on lizard people and science? Sorry you did not notice my SPECIFIC QUESTIONS.


anyway, i don't know how you could construe that i didn't answer your op at all.


I do not know how you still do not understand what I am actually asking when EVERYONE ELSE THAT REPLIED TO ME AT LEAST UNDERSTOOD THE QUESTIONS.

You are obviously REFUSING to get it so please, just stop. Stop arguing with me about it. Stop wasting the thread I gave you to spend another two pages crying about being misunderstood. Please, start your own thread about lizard people and cry there about not being understood. This thread was not supposed to be about you, what you wanted to teach, what questions you wanted to ignore, what topics you wanted to discuss, and least of all your feelings on the matter. If you cannot just stop, I will put you on ignore as much as I really hate to do that for the posts I appreciate from you in other threads. I am sorry I asked respectfully and politely more than once. I am sorry my OP was clear to everyone but you and countless explanations did nothing to help. You got what you wanted so quit playing victim now. I tried to get you to play nice for pages and you refused. I give it up to you and now you want to argue about how helpful you are but misunderstood? Then cry but do it to someone else

Please leave me alone.


[edit on 7/23/10 by evil incarnate]



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