Juxtapose G20 and Northern Ireland riots

Here are two different instances of public disorder with very different outcomes, and tactics used for control. What I find interesting is also the completely different reasons for the public disorder. G20 protestors are there to protest various problems in the world, on the other side of the spectrum the 'protestors' in Northern Ireland are just out to cause violent trouble.

In Northern Ireland the security sources have just a little experience with these volatile situations (sarcasm) but the last case of rioting this bad was in September 2005. Whether as the various G20 riots are in areas with little or no experience in severe public disorder.

Northern Ireland
www.guardian.co.uk...
www.bbc.co.uk...



Up to six shots were fired at police lines in Ardoyne during the disturbances. Nationalist rioters also threw petrol bombs and fired a pipe bomb, and about 100 officers used water cannon and baton rounds.

G20 Torronto
www.guardian.co.uk...

Almost 500 people have been arrested after a group of anarchists torched police cars and smashed storefronts close to the G20 summit in Toronto.

www.globalresearch.ca...

G20 London
www.independent.co.uk...

The Northern Ireland riots are IMO far more violent and dangerous in nature than the G20 riots. Blast bombs, shots fired, petrol bombs, lucky someone hasn't been killed so far. Yet the police use more heavy handed tactics in controlling G20 rioters, including those peaceful members caught in the middle who have no intention to cause trouble. We also have the potential case of police provocateurs generating trouble at the Toronto riots.

A senior police officer warned that there would be "significant arrests" of those involved in rioting in Belfast.
Assistant Chief Constable Duncan McCausland said that as well as throwing stones and petrol bombs, young children were being used as shields by "sinister elements" organising the riots.

McCausland said police had hours of video footage from before the violence started, and would use it to identify the rioters.
"There will be significant arrests in the forthcoming days. Individuals will not go scot free," he said.
Of the rioter who dropped a concrete block on a policewoman's head in Ardoyne on Monday night, McCausland said: "Wherever he is in Northern Ireland, he can sit and be worried: we will be coming for him."

As for these comments all I can say is we will see...

Just a warning before viewing any videos of Northern Ireland on youtube you will inevitably encounter retarded sectarian comments in the comments section. My advice is to ignore them and not bother replying because you will not win against ignorance that deeply ingrained.

Originally posted by Big Raging Loner
Here are two different instances of public disorder with very different outcomes, and tactics used for control.

What I find interesting is also the completely different reasons for the public disorder. G20 protestors are there to protest various problems in the world, on the other side of the spectrum the 'protestors' in Northern Ireland are just out to cause violent trouble.

The " completely different reasons for the public disorder " that you cite , are not much consolation to the the Northern Irishman with his car burnt out, or the Canadian shop owner that has had her store widows smashed and her stock looted.

The Twelfth of July is the annual high-point of the loyal orders' parading calendar. Some marches have been a source of tension between nationalists who see the parades as triumphalist and intimidating, and Orangemen who believe it is their right to walk on public roads.

link

When you have a predominately Catholic community and the Orange order gets dropped into the area by buses , so as to `march through it` ......... its provocative but of course that's no excuse to commit such wanton acts of thuggery.

It is impossible for someone like myself, who grew up in one of the worst-affected areas during the Troubles, not to notice that the areas now reeling from riots, burning cars and confrontations with the police are the very same ones that suffered most in previous decades.

This is no coincidence.

It is no coincidence either that these riots are not taking place in more well-to-do parts of the province, just as they didn't in the past. I watch these youngsters and, all but for a change of fashion, they could be the same people who were on the streets in the 70s and 80s. It is soul-destroying

Deprivation is sectarianism`s partner in crime


Perhaps the G20 riots and the Northern Irish riots do have something in common after all .

reply to post by UmbraSumus


As a Northern Irishman myself I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make;

The " completely different reasons for the public disorder " that you cite , are not much consolation to the the Northern Irishman with his car burnt out, or the Canadian shop owner that has had her store widows smashed and her stock looted.

Are you trying to suggest that I am trivialising the damage to communities caused by the violence? Considering I went to school beside the Crumlin road I can assure you that is not the case. My intention was to contrast the different tactics used by police in these two different situations. One the riots in the two G20 locations where police IMO used superior tactics and made a considerable number of arrests. The other in an area well known for violent encounters such as the 12th violence, yet the police have not made any arrests and for want of a better term look completely helpless.

When you have a predominately Catholic community and the Orange order gets dropped into the area by buses , so as to `march through it` ......... its provocative but of course that's no excuse to commit such wanton acts of thuggery.

I fully agree with you here though, this is the status quo and surely to be expected, last year there was no trouble over the 12th and as per usual Orange Order marched through Nationalist areas. So what has changed?
Why such a reaction this year in particular?

reply to post by Big Raging Loner


I wasn`t trying to say you were trivialising the violence ,forgive me if i gave you that impression, just that it always seems to be Joe Public that gets caught up in the mess .

The difference this year to last , probably has to do with the respective sides not working in tandem to ensue a peaceful July. Whilst it is encouraging that the First and Deputy first prime ministers are working together , its obvious that they run their affairs with little real cohesion.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Since 2009
We are also a year further into the economic downturn , high rates of unemployed particularly among young men, disillusioned with the provinces governing body . Only too eager to lash out ........ a sad attempt to wrest some control over their lives, to feel less powerless .



[edit on 14-7-2010 by UmbraSumus]

reply to post by UmbraSumus


No worries just a common misinterpretation happens me all the time on the internet

www.guardian.co.uk...

I think in the case of Northern Ireland the children have unfortunately indoctrinated to some degree into believing this violence is acceptable. This rioting isn't really about the marching, it's just something to do, an excuse to cause trouble. The Orange Order have just provided them with their convenient excuse. Probably because they know they will come off the victim and look alot better out of it.

As for Joe Everyman unfortunately the thugs rioting are also damaging their own communities, and it would be easy for parents and family members to identify who is causing the trouble. I mean how children are there in the Ardoyne? If your son isn't in the house there is a good chance he is one of the hundred people out throwing stones petrol bombs etc. So Joe may know those who are trashing his business on a first name basis.

Contrast this with G20 riots you have plenty of normal peaceful people being caught up in the violence who had only good intentions to get their point across. Now in this trouble the police apparently have made mass arrests and targetted ones at that.

Why can they do this in a situation like the G20 and not in Northern Ireland? Where during the riot clearly there are no innocent bystanders caught in the mess, just those who are willing to take part.

So far they have made fewer than 20 arrests in the three days of rioting I am to understand. It really baffles me. Particularly considering specialists from the PSNI were called in to train the Metropolitan police in civil disorder techniques.

Like I said before, the trouble caused in Northern Ireland is not by peaceful protestors. Therefore applying the riot control techniques of Northern Ireland to England doesn't really make sense, as the two situations are like chalk and cheese, and require a fundamentally different approach.


[edit on 14-7-2010 by Big Raging Loner]

I live in Northern Ireland and I in no way condone the rioting of the last few nights. But you have to look into the reasons of why people are upset and why people are rioting.

The Orange Order marching through catholic areas is the reason, Orangemen from all over the north be allowed to congregate then march and bang their drums whilst 'some' shouting sectarian abuse towards the people who's area they are marching through. This in itself incites violence.

The leaders of the orange order need to sit down and talk to the community leaders of these nationalist areas, they need to come up with a solution to this, maybe not intimidate those people by marching through their area, how hard is it to march along another route in their own area? something which so far they have refused to do.

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


Very true they could easily reroute elsewhere, it's that old chestnut of 'Tradition.' Communication is definitely the key, and the weird thing is it does happen on a personal level, but this seems to dissipate as soon as a difficult cross community situation arises.

I still believe that the vast majority rioting are just there to cause trouble though. I mean how can a ten year old or younger understand the complexities of Northern Irish history?

Yet there are kids of this age out throwing all sorts at police etc, who will be there first port of call when their house is broken into, they are assaulted or whatever crime happens to them. Which reinforces my opinion of indoctrination by the parents, older siblings or peers.

There has been this illusion put forward over the past few years that Northern Ireland has moved on and that the people do not want a return to violence. This I believe is only partly true, a considerable number of people are still stuck in the past.

The perception of Northern Ireland as having moved on I believe was Perpetuated by Blair's Labour. The Northern Ireland situation was put forward as his crowning achievement. Yet the peace walls were being built higher and higher every year since the Good Friday Agreement, and there is now more of them than ever as I'm sure you've seen.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk...

An article from Huffington post of all places.

A prominent Catholic priest at the center of the main rioting area, Ardoyne in north Belfast, said he feared that the latest rioting chiefly reflects the collapse of parental responsibility in local households, not any deep-seated political agenda.

The Rev. Gary Donegan said violence that continued until 2 a.m. Wednesday in Ardoyne featured rioters aged 8 to 18 - backed by crowds of girls capturing the mayhem on their cell phones for posting on social networking Web sites.

Donegan said he and local Ardoyne authority figures - among them Irish Republican Army veterans once involved in directing, not stopping, riots - tried all night to take rocks, bottles and stones out of children's hands, but the kids wouldn't listen.

I find the last quote particularly poignant. Here are some guys directly involved in the troubles who have turned there back on violence to try to help kids in their community, yet they don't even listen to them. Further proof if it was needed that these kids are just out for trouble.

"That's the burning question for us," he said. "I saw children facing down what would have been hardened mainstream (IRA) republicans of yesteryear who are now full weight behind the peace process, and they were taking (abuse) from these young people who were literally out of control."



www.huffingtonpost.com...

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Big Raging Loner]

reply to post by Big Raging Loner


I actually agree with him..

To be fair, the vast majority of the Rioters are simply teenagers in deprived areas of a city with nothing to do with their time other than have hatred engraved into them..

The Orangemen did incite it.. thats blatantly obvious.. I don't understand why the just don't stop going into these areas - The Catholic vs Protestant thing should have been left in the 80's/90's where it belongs.

But these rioters are rioting for little more than local pride, boredom and adrenaline.

I've seen my share of these living in Belfast myself, I'm completely missing the point of the thread though closest I can guess you are suggesting the police aren't doing enough in Belfast compared to G20 but I'm pretty sure if they do try to get any more heavy handed the violence will balloon across the whole country.

It's best just to let the riots here fizzle themselves out naturally, in this country one mishandled riot can basicly turn into complete insanity and have a habit of spreading all over.

I actually think the best way to handle them would be just let the two sides go at each other but of course that's what the police are there to prevent and often become targets from both sides for their trouble.

To me it's no big deal and just business as usual but then I've grown up with it and to be honest it will probably continue to kick off yearly it's not a hard thing to avoid if you want though.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Teknikal]

reply to post by Teknikal


I'm not quite sure now what the point is myself.

My original idea was to compare and contrast the differing techniques used by the police in the two different cases of civil disorder. Not so much go into the reasoning behind (which I admit I now have done) but to discuss the effectiveness of these techniques and if they are really applicable to each situation.

I wasn't neccessarily stating I feel the police in Northern Ireland should be more heavy handed, but perhaps alter their strategy slightly. I mean a water cannon in this weather isn't going to create much discomfort.

I believe you are right in saying any more force from police would likely escalate the situation, but this is what I'm getting at can there not be a new technique to stop the violence, possibly by forcing these groups back into their own neighbourhoods, and breaking them up? Alot of the riots are quite well orchestrated and these youngsters can all communicate with phones etc.