CNN (Headline News) is covering the BP/Mustang Story!

reply to post by PieKeeper


seriously ? that's your one and only source?

which given this quote from it sure sounds objective to me ..Not

1967: “Both the wild horses and the burros in the Thousand Creek area proved to be a particular draw for tourists that year. Refuge personnel also attended several wildlife conferences and took part in a number of meetings to promote a better public understanding of the Refuge.”
1970: “The wild horses and burros continued to draw tourists, much to the disgust of Range personnel who considered the antelope a much more interesting creature.”

so I read your ridiculous 'study' but thanks for showing it to me I can quote it in support of my argument that corruption is the Mustangs worst enemy all day



I've never seen this quoted by any Mustang advocates ,I'll send it around

Originally posted by Aquarius1

George Knapp first hour guest tonight July 18, 2010 on Coast to Coast AM is Laura Leigh

10:00 PM Pacitic ~ 1:00 AM Eastern

artandhorseslauraleigh.wordpress.com...

Animal activist Laura Leigh talks about the recent wild horse round-up in Nevada, and the lawsuit she filed to stop it.

I wish Laura Leigh on her lawsuit.

reply to post by Aquarius1


Aquarius thanks a bunch

will being giving thoughts of support to the lawsuit

S for you

reply to post by MrsBlonde


You are very welcome, just finished listening to the show, good luck with her lawsuit.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
so I read your ridiculous 'study' but thanks for showing it to me I can quote it in support of my argument that corruption is the Mustangs worst enemy all day

That quote indicates nothing of corruption, just the personal views of unspecified personnel about 35 years before the report was published.

Instead of refuting their findings, you try to discredit them as corrupt based upon a third-hand account of some individuals opinions.

And people tell me to deny ignorance in this thread...

Here's another source. This particular source contains three parts: www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu...

The first part discusses the health of the feral horses:

"During the summer of 2002, the feral horses were observed in poor condition. Many were seen with protruding rib, spine and hip bones."

"Between 2002 and 2003, the herd decreased in size to 29 animals, and it was clear that some animals were starving due to the lack of forage associated with a prolonged drought occurring in San Diego County (Figure 5)."

Of course, various conditions will change depending on the area the horses are located, though we do see that there is evidence that feral horses can and do starve in the wild.

The second part discusses competition with native Bighorn Sheep:

"The 2003 experiment provided strong evidence of indirect interference competition between horses and bighorn sheep. In other words, bighorn sheep and horses were competing for the same resource (water), and the presence of horses altered bighorn sheep behavior."

So we see that there is evidence that feral horses compete with native wildlife.

The third part discusses the ecological impact of horse-made trails:

"Disturbance on the trails caused significant soil compaction, increased the percentage of bare ground, reduced species diversity, and reduced plant cover (Table 1). Immediately adjacent to the trail, we found significantly higher species diversity and no change in plant cover or soil compaction."

"In an experimental trampling study in Montana, Cole and Spildie (1998) reported that just 25 horse-passes caused more vegetation loss than 150 passes by hikers or llamas. Winam and Chilcott (1999) found that trampling by horse broke 39.2 percent of plant biomass as compared to 0.1 percent after trampling by hikers. Deluca et al. (1998) found that horse use tends to loosen soil and make it more susceptible to erosion."

By trampling and eating vegetation on trails, they are creating edge habitat with horse-made trails, and increasing the edge effects of man-made trails. So here we see, with support of other studies, that horse trails have a fairly large ecological impact. Edge effect can have positive and negative impacts. The impact of the edge effect isn't studied in this report.

[edit on 19-7-2010 by PieKeeper]

reply to post by Springer


Be really careful when you sign up to give CNN newsworthy opinions. I went on as anomymous and they checked my computer and now have my facebook profile and information. No big thing for me because I am growing tired of the secrecy, right to know versus need to kno, not to mention all the other private butt poking.

But come on now! Drama-Queen-Jane? Is that supposed to move her up in my ranks of low life reporters or lower the validity of the story? Take your pick: by the time she gets her warpy hands on it, it won't be what you think its going to be about! That is a guarantee!

Why do people watch that channel? It is trumped up drama and emotion with very little real reporting. Jane and Nancy cut debates off short before anyone can hear the other sides of the story. That is not a good thing, my friend..not a good thing at all when you are only allowed to hear one side.

reply to post by PieKeeper


well fix the the link


you just have to be kidding 9 million sheep and cattle have no effect on there ranges? all animals make trails you know that right ?

what exactly do you know about horses at all I wonder , ya I saw you're other document that says wild horses have to be eliminated from the range to protect archeological sites ,like a mustang capture station from the 1800's !!!!!

ya Park Service is frantic about horses stepping on arrow heads ,but a BP pipeline and thousand earth movers and trucks and drilling equipment and the roads they're gonna build on your super sacred archeological wonderland won't have any effect on the archeological treasures.......
so what doesn't hurt the land /archeology

cows
sheep
people
mega huge earth earth movers
road building
workers relief stations
motorcycles
antelope
ATVs
oil piplelines
mining

Mustangs it's all their fault

you do know that they have have been on these ranges for 500 years right !
suddenly in the late 1960's they're destroying the range?

can anyone help me with some answers to some simple questions?
1 where is the source of the gas?
2 where is its destination?
3 does it have anything to do with the denver airport?

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
well fix the the link

The link works for me, though I'll send it in a PM.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
you just have to be kidding 9 million sheep and cattle have no effect on there ranges? all animals make trails you know that right ?

I'm not arguing that they don't, I'm arguing solely on the impact and indigenous status of feral horses.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
what exactly do you know about horses at all I wonder , ya I saw you're other document that says wild horses have to be eliminated from the range to protect archeological sites ,like a mustang capture station from the 1800's !!!!!

ya Park Service is frantic about horses stepping on arrow heads ,but a BP pipeline and thousand earth movers and trucks and drilling equipment and the roads they're gonna build on your super sacred archeological wonderland won't have any effect on the archeological treasures.......
so what doesn't hurt the land /archeology

cows
sheep
people
mega huge earth earth movers
road building
workers relief stations
motorcycles
antelope
ATVs
oil piplelines
mining

The first source I cited was a National Wildlife Refuge. I'm not so sure that a BP pipeline would intersect it, and there hasn't been livestock grazing there for about 20 years (as stated in the report).

The reports I've posted study the effects of horses, which is what I'm arguing about.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
you do know that they have have been on these ranges for 500 years right !
suddenly in the late 1960's they're destroying the range?

Studies of the ecological impact of horses haven't been done until recently. No one is saying that feral horses are destroying the range, just that the impact needs to be considered, especially since feral horses are technically an invasive species.

reply to post by PieKeeper


Who gives a crap about feral animals i asked questions about issues
relating to you all. If what im thinking is true the only interest you will
have with these ferals is how can i catch one to eat!

Pie Keeper
I have asked you to answer my questions
1 what do you know about horses

2 why are Mustangs so dangerous to the ranges if they have been living on them for 500 years with antelope deer bears wolves coytotes birds and Indian relics and now suddenly they mess everything up?

3 what is your connection to this issue ,you are passionate about destroying Mustangs

4 how will the extinction of the Mustangs help the public lands?

5 why is the inconceivable cruelty that that is perpetrated against them not part of your equation?

you don't seem very informed about the variables at work here
you haven't read my posts did you you watch the videos of horse slaughter?

some videos of Mustangs in the wild






where are the degraded ranges? Where the starving horses?


a trained mustang 120 days from the wild



Wild Horse info and stats

I describe my interest in horses and the issues that surround them here
Mrs Blondes Mustangs/AQHA thread

which I 've posted before but you didn't read
okay I'm having editing and upload issues I'll post the other vids in another post

[edit on 7/20/2010 by MrsBlonde]

[edit on 7/20/2010 by MrsBlonde]

[edit on 7/20/2010 by MrsBlonde]

the missing videos from my previous post






so does it look to you like they are ravaging the land

there nowhere near watercourses I see no trials I see plenty of vegetation'
I'm not seeing the horrifying craters left by clodhopper footprints, where's the erosion? where are the endangered artifacts that they've been living wit for 500 years?or the dead and dying wildlife left in wake there passing

you know it costs nothing to leave the wild horses where they are
if they get eaten by couger or break a leg well that's wild that's been happening to wild animals since the dawn of time

you keep saying we have no records from the beginning that indict Mustangs in extinction,but we do all the history until this ridiculous set of arguments arose in the 70's

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
1 what do you know about horses

The horses that exist in the wild in North America are the descendants of domesticated animals. These wild horses are feral.

Granted, I'm not familiar with horse physiology. However, I do know that horses are an invasive species, and that they can cause ecological damage.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
2 why are Mustangs so dangerous to the ranges if they have been living on them for 500 years with antelope deer bears wolves coytotes birds and Indian relics and now suddenly they mess everything up?

As I've already stated, the ecological effects of feral horses have only been studied recently. We'll never know the extent of the impact feral horses have had, though we can study the impact they're having now.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
3 what is your connection to this issue ,you are passionate about destroying Mustangs

Right now I'm working on a BS in Wildlife Biology with a minor in Conservation Ecology. Because I go to school in North America, we primarily learn about North American ecosystems.

I saw this thread and the attitudes/statement that were being displayed by members, including things like "Horses are native." and "Let the horses run free where they belong." I figured I could apply what I've learned, and along with scientific evidence, explain why horses aren't native and why horses don't belong in the wild.

I'm not passionate about destroying mustangs. I'd appreciate it if you would quit putting words in my mouth. The mustang doesn't have to be destroyed. The most logical option is to move mustangs to some sort of preservation. A large area of land they can occupy, but still be managed. This would mitigate the effects of letting them roam completely free.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
4 how will the extinction of the Mustangs help the public lands?

No one has said that the mustang should or will go extinct.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
5 why is the inconceivable cruelty that that is perpetrated against them not part of your equation?

Again, as I've already stated a few times in this thread, I'm strictly speaking about the ecological effects of feral horses.

It's not "part of my equation" because it doesn't concern their impact on the habitat they occupy.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
where are the degraded ranges? Where the starving horses?

Scroll part of the way down to see the visible impact of horse grazing on vegetation:

www.fws.gov...

"These above two photographs were taken one year apart at the same site, Big Spring Creek on Sheldon National Wildlife Refuge. The first photograph was taken in August 2004 at the time of a large horse gather on Big Spring Butte which resulted in the removal of 293 horses. These horses were placed in homes through adoption. The photograph shows the extensive damage to vegetation along the riparian area caused by horses. The second photo was taken one-year later (August 2005) at the same position and angle, and shows the response of vegetation from reduced grazing pressure of horses. Woody vegetation and other responses of the ecosystem will take many years for restoration from the damage."

About the starving horses, there are a few factors that would play into this, the biggest would be droughts and overpopulation. The report I sent you in a PM with the three parts contains a picture (maybe more) showing starving horses and explains that it coincided with a drought.

If managed at the correct levels, the horses should have enough to eat.


[edit on 20-7-2010 by PieKeeper]

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
so does it look to you like they are ravaging the land

there nowhere near watercourses I see no trials I see plenty of vegetation'
I'm not seeing the horrifying craters left by clodhopper footprints, where's the erosion? where are the endangered artifacts that they've been living wit for 500 years?or the dead and dying wildlife left in wake there passing

Those effects wouldn't necessarily be evident from those pictures.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
you know it costs nothing to leave the wild horses where they are
if they get eaten by couger or break a leg well that's wild that's been happening to wild animals since the dawn of time

The report from the Sheldon NWR mentions that the horses there breed faster than other native large mammals. This supports the argument that if left unmanaged, feral horses will over-populate.

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
you keep saying we have no records from the beginning that indict Mustangs in extinction,but we do all the history until this ridiculous set of arguments arose in the 70's

I don't exactly know what you're saying in the first part. However, like I've said, the ecological impacts of horses haven't been studied until recently (like the 70's). I've presented scientific evidence that backs up the claims I've been making. Those claims have yet to be refuted in this thread, only mocked.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by PieKeeper]

Double post.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by PieKeeper]

well PieKeeper

finding out something about what is going one with horses in the wild and horses in America would be a good thing

not only do I read all these studies but I also know horses and I also this is the land that horses come from
Horses lived here for five hundred years along with a billion buffalo and native Americans and wildlife and the land was fine

the only thing different in the mix is us ,we hunted
and slaughtered buffalo to the brink of extinction eradicated wolves and killed 90% the native human population hunted the grizzly to extinction in the lower 48 anyone done a study on that? there are tens of thousands of species that we have wiped out since we arrived on this continent, the Mustangs didn't do it it was and is us


I consider Mustangs a returned Fauna reoccupying the the niche they vacated when whatever late ice age catastrophe wiped them out and we're lucky to have them back.

another point as mentioned in one of your links is everyone loves them they belong to us and we continue to support their protection ,overwhelmingly
and yes it's okay with me if camels and rhinos comeback they belong here too



do the math and figure out for yourself that mustangs are not the public lands problem

the damage done to rivers has been debunked I have have myself spent time in open range land running cattle and sheep I know the wild horses don't do that kind of damage and also I have to tell you animals from dinosaurs to bison to deer to cattle have been drinking from rivers since time began and wild things started drinking water

all this is a symptom of people who don't know the land, the animals do and

you call them feral but I call them horses and they come from America
so many animals that used to be here are missing it's okay with me and almost everyone else in this country to let the horses have some.
oh and managed isn't wild

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
you call them feral but I call them horses

Feral horses. I've referred to them as feral horses. This is another attempt to misrepresent what I've said and portray me as a villain. You have none of my respect.

Until you present scientific evidence that refutes the claims I've made, I will refrain from posting in this thread any further.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by PieKeeper]

all my evidence is scientific you just didn't read it Piekeeper

and you have consistently used the term feral in your posts

The horses that exist in the wild in North America are the descendants of domesticated animals. These wild horses are feral.

and the BLM had no right to reassign them to feral unprotected status

I noticed in your references they won't call them Mustangs

I know they have to be gathered at times but not twice a year or every two years and none should be gathered until the ones already in captivity have been adopted

the starvation is because they are being fenced out of their usual habitats and fenced out of water where they die that happens on some of the ranges
it's not their fault it's being done to them

as to the breeding faster well that is an effect of the pressure of drastic traumatic reduction. it's a well known fact that every animal under that kind of pressure responds that way ,it's natures way of replacing what's been lost
take away the constant culling and reproduction rates return to normal

horses don't over breed naturally as they have year long gestation periods and mares will nurse adult offspring I 've given you information but you refuse to look at it
they have exactly the same breeding rate as every other animal on the range and similar offspring mortality there is simply nothing freakish odd or unnatural about them they are just like every other animal on the range

I have answered your questions and I've even been courteous enough to read your references ,I read scientific studies all the time and I don't have to swallow everything I'm feed because someone tells me it 's scientific . I can tell

to be a scientist you have to take in all the available information and to be a great scientist you have to think outside the box

I'm in Bachelor of Science studies too

but I know about this topic I've seen it I've been there and done that I know History ,Horses , I know the country and the people I know how range politics works

and I know how agribusiness organizations work and I know how it all goes together, this is not my first rodeo
I also worked for the Arizona Dept of Fish and Game so I know how state wild life bureaucracies work some times good sometimes not so good
and I know how these studies get made


so just keep cherry picking your data that's scientific
se ya in the funny papers Piekeeper

Originally posted by PieKeeper
1st definition of "Artificial" from Merriam-Webster: "1 : humanly contrived often on a natural model : man-made "

Man-introduced invasive species are thus... artificially introduced.

But, the horses aren't created by humans, are they? Seems to me a horse mates with another, and makes little horses. So, I don't see the horses as artificial. Also, I'm not interested in dictionary definitions, I'm looking at a bigger picture than that.

Also, I'm not telling you that feral horses are bad because I say so, The citation I've used in previous posts that discusses the matter is a document from the Fish and Wildlife Service.

Riiiiight. Because we all know the government can be trusted to provide accurate, and unbiased citations.

I'm guessing you believe all the government funded citations about marijuana, etc. as well? Because, the government would never misrepresent facts, in order to ensure lobbyist cash. Nope, never.

I haven't admitted that there haven't been real studies. We can study the impacts of feral horses right now. Just because no one was doing it 400 years ago does not make current studies invalid.

I can tell you, from personal experience. I spend ALOT of time outdoors in the deserts north of Lake Pleasant prospecting for gold. There's a population of wild burros that I encounter often, as well as many grazing cows. They have become a part of the environment, and help to keep the brush down which actually prevents brush fires. And like I said before, they provide food. I watched a very old burro that came through the creek being stalked by a mountain lion up on the canyon wall, the cat had already attacked the burro, as there were claw marks on it's side. Again, I'm not interested in biased "new" studies funded by BP, to clear a pipeline.

No matter what way you look at it, if nature has a plan, we're part of it. If everything is chaos, then let the chips fall where they may, which is the way of chaos.

You've yet to refute the assertion that feral horses cause environmental damage. No one in this thread has.

I do refute it. As I said above, they keep the brush down and provide prey for predators. They may alter an environment to an extent, but ALL environments are fluid, and constantly changing for one reason or another.

Mankind is part of nature, no matter how much he tries to put himself above it, or what the dictionary says, IMO.

reply to post by 27jd


Hi Five 27jd

I 've been refuting that Mustangs destroy their environment this whole thread

duh oh!

Thursday on the Thom Hartmann Radio Show
9:00 AM Pacific - 12:00 PM Eastern

www.thomhartmann.com...

You can listen online if your local progressive radio station doesn't carry Thom's show.

Jul. 22, 2010
Hour Three: First the Gulf of Mexico, now America's public lands and wild horses are threatened by BP - Madeleine Pickens will be here savingamericasmustangs.org...