Fox Business' solution to financial crisis: Tax the poor more

reply to post by ImaNutter


Some tax brackets are across the board the same percentage, and some you never get back. SS for example, everyone pays.

State Income depends on if your state even has that tax, and if it does, yes, everyone gets deducted.. of course, it all depends on what you list as dependants. Then, if your a frequent flyer in the no-tax bracket, you can simply check "exempt" on Federal W4.

But assuming your poor, and you pay federal/state and medicaid etc .. sure, you pay taxes however..

1. You get ALL your federal dollars back, if your married and you have children and you qualify for at least one credit, you get a surplus.. you get what you paid PLUS additional funds.

2. Same thing with the State and Local, though at local levels your always going to end up owing something.

3. If you pay into medicaid and you use medicaid (where as middle class people cannot use social services) .. imo, you didn't pay a tax you paid a premium since your getting the service subsidized by the middle class.

No.... the poor don't pay taxes. When we say this, we imply there are levels of taxation that they are exempt.. Federal Income being the biggest one, regardless if they paid into it or not.. they get it back .. nothing more than a piggybank.

reply to post by jdub297


Your whole post is BS. Of course the rich don't pay their fair share of taxes. They can afford to hire accountants that know how to hide income. Simple as that.

You're trying to make it sound like they don't try to get out of paying tax. What utter rubbish.

LOL @ offshore accounts used to protect assets from seizure. Yeah, that's why the IRS is trying to find all the secret accounts, because everyone has a judgment against them. NO, it's because they are evading their income tax.

www.bloomberg.com...

www.google.ca...:en-GBfficial&client=firefox-a

[edit on 28-6-2010 by TheComte]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by ImaNutter

 

Some tax brackets are across the board the same percentage, and some you never get back. SS for example, everyone pays.

State Income depends on if your state even has that tax, and if it does, yes, everyone gets deducted.. of course, it all depends on what you list as dependants. Then, if your a frequent flyer in the no-tax bracket, you can simply check "exempt" on Federal W4.

There are only 7 states that do NOT charge a state income tax, which means 86% of the nation pays a state income tax... practically everyone. And the states that DON'T charge a state income tax, they're just making up for it in other taxes like higher sales taxes!

But assuming your poor, and you pay federal/state and medicaid etc .. sure, you pay taxes however..

1. You get ALL your federal dollars back, if your married and you have children and you qualify for at least one credit, you get a surplus.. you get what you paid PLUS additional funds.

Do you realize how poor these people actually are, that get money back? How much do you suggest taking on top of sales tax, income tax, property taxes, etc etc from the $15,000 a year these people are making? You can work at McD's and still pay federal income tax....

3. If you pay into medicaid and you use medicaid (where as middle class people cannot use social services) .. imo, you didn't pay a tax you paid a premium since your getting the service subsidized by the middle class.

You should brush up on your medicaid to correct your opinion.

Having a low income is not the sole requirement for receiving Medicaid assistance. There are many
people who are poor, with incomes below the poverty level, who do not meet Medicaid requirements
because they do not fit within the designated eligibility groups.
...
Generally these groups of people can receive Medicaid assistance:

* Pregnant women and children under 6 with family income at or below 133% of the federal

poverty level. Based on 2009 Federal Poverty Guidelines, a family of two would need an
income less than $19, 378 to qualify for Medicaid assistance.

* Children ages 6 to 19 qualify with a family income at or below the federal poverty level.


* Adults who take care of children under age 18.


* Individuals who receive Supplemental Security Income


* Teenagers up to age 21 who are living on their own


* People who are over 65, blind or disabled


Some individuals who do not meet the income requirements may still receive Medicaid benefits because
they are medically-needy. The following states have medically needy Medicaid programs:

* Arkansas
* California
* Connecticut
* the District of
Columbia
* Florida
* Georgia
* Hawaii
* Iowa
* Kansas
* Kentucky
* Louisiana
* Maine
* Maryland
* Massachusetts
* Michigan
* Minnesota
* Montana

* Nebraska
* New Hampshire
* New Jersey
* New York
* North Carolina
* North Dakota
* Pennsylvania
* Puerto Rico
* Rhode Island
* Tennessee
* Texas
* Utah
* Vermont
* Virginia
* Washington
* West Virginia
* Wisconsin

Over half our nation's states provide medicaid to those who medically need it. And it looks like the other less than half actually provides the service to those who really NEED it, financially.

I don't see a problem with this. Medicaid is essentially for the dirt poor.

What do you suggest we do with these dirt poor people that get sick? Should we just start shooting the poor people on the spot if they show up at the hospital asking for assistance with their broken arm from a coked out, drunk driver debutante?

No.... the poor don't pay taxes.

but assuming your poor, and you pay federal/state and medicaid etc .. sure, you pay taxes however..

So do the poor pay taxes or don't they? Of course they do, let's try and be intellectually honest hmmm?

When we say this, we imply there are levels of taxation that they are exempt.. Federal Income being the biggest one, regardless if they paid into it or not.. they get it back .. nothing more than a piggybank.

Just as there are deductions and credits available to the rich which will never, ever be available to the bottom half. You really think the poor are the ones cheating you?

About 500,000 boat owners nationwide can decrease their income-tax bill every year by declaring their vessels a second home. Some others collect healthy deductions from putting their boats into charter arrangements that may skirt the provisions of the tax code. And some corporations take deductions on yachts that seem to stretch the definition of a business resource.

www.seattlepi.com...

That's just one example and I could provide a thousand more of some shady tactics to run away from tax day. Rich enough for a boat house but can't pay the taxes? Who do you REALLY think is cheating you? Those evil poor people working part time at the gas station or the rich yacht owners who "skirt the provisions of the tax code?" And like I said, that's just one example... didn't even bother with corporations either.

As concisely as I can put it, the "poor" pays taxes. Everyone in this country pays taxes... even if they think they're not, they're paying taxes. Deal in the black market and use cash only? THEY'RE STILL PAYING TAXES!!!!!!! Everyone.... is.... getting..... taxed. You can not exist in this country on the physical plane without getting taxed.

You seemed to have ignored this last part from my post, the part that really mattered, so I c&p it again here... I think the zero efficiency thing could explain what you feel about medicaid perhaps?

THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES POPULATION IS BEING OVER TAXED! Don't you get it???! We supposedly started a revolution over a tea tax, but today we are being taxed for exponentially more!!

And to compound the problem...there is zero efficiency in the way we spend our money... the federal income tax is paid directly to London, we are fighting 3 wars (in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the War on Drugs), there is what we like to call "pork," there is the black budget, there is the crumbling infrastructure... it goes on, and on, and on, and on.

When I say class warfare... you can take it literally. The classes are at war with each other over who is getting shafted and who isn't... all the while, the government is collecting more and more money just the same. The Elite class (rulers, CEOs, bankers, investors) are in actuality the ones who are winning the war because the population, correction, the population who is even interested in this sort of thing, are too busy fighting amongst ourselves when we're ALL getting shafted.

You're arguing with the wrong people, people!!!!


ps: example, here we are wasting more messages arguing about poor people when we're ALL paying the Elitie anyway.. rich or poor, that's where it goes. And the gap keeps growing, and growing, and growing. Poor people did not do this. You can blame a lot on laziness and inadaquacy, but the WIDENING economic gap between the classes you can not.

Originally posted by TheComte
reply to post by jdub297

 

Your whole post is BS.

I'm afraid not, but your's is on pretty shaky factual ground.

Anyone who pays one cent more than their "fair share" of tax is a fool.

Of course the rich don't pay their fair share of taxes. They can afford to hire accountants that know how to hide income. Simple as that.

Anyone can go online for tax advice, or see H&R Block. If you are jealous, that is the result of a lack of planning and foresight.

You're trying to make it sound like they don't try to get out of paying tax. What utter rubbish.

EVERYONE tries to "get out of paying tax!"
Your personal attack is "utter rubbish."

As said before, only a fool gives away money to the government if he doesn't have to.

LOL @ offshore accounts used to protect assets from seizure.

Yes! That is a primary reason for such accounts. There is nothing illegal or unethical about sheltering assets. Until TEFRA in 1986, everyday, hardworking, Americans were able to use real estate LPs to shelter income from taxes and gain capital appreciation.

Offshore accounts are perfectly legal places to keep money. Do you REALLY trust Bank of America or AIG or CitiGroup with your assets?

Yeah, that's why the IRS is trying to find all the secret accounts, because everyone has a judgment against them. NO, it's because they are evading their income tax.

If you knew what you were you were talking about, your rants would be somewhat useful.

The IRS is going after thieves who've skimmed from companies or hidden assets, like inheritances that should be taxed. They are not "the rich;" they are thieves.

Read your own sources:

The IRS is intensifying its hunt for secret offshore banking ... after more than 7,500 Americans revealed undeclared accounts ... .

Americans coming forward before today’s deadline to take advantage of a partial amnesty have revealed accounts ranging in value from $10,000 to more than $100 million.

Taxpayers disclosed assets that came from inheritances, profits skimmed from U.S. businesses, and international business transactions, he said.

www.bloomberg.com...

If you believe $10,000 socked away makes you "rich," I can understand your jealousy.

Otherwise, your criticism is completely unfounded and based on misguided thinking.

"SECRET" accounts and income are illegal. Not "offshore."
I'd be willing to bet that 80% of working age Americans have received "undeclared income" at some point.

Ever won a bet; got a rebate? Accepted $5 "for gas?"
Then you are a tax cheat if you did not declare it and pay tax on it.

Maybe it's just guilty consciences that are driving the hateful rants.

deny ignorance

jw

[edit on 28-6-2010 by jdub297]

reply to post by Rockpuck

No one should be exempt from taxation while others pay for their services.

Do you include ALL the corporations that pay ZERO taxes?
How about the rich who illegally pay no taxes on all their foreign account profits?

Or are you only going to include the poor, the most vulnerable, the ones who don't benefit from government sponsored corporate welfare?

reply to post by slank


Corporate welfare versus corporate socialism. Interesting terms both.

I wonder if there's a list of how much corporations pay in taxes. We know those who ship jobs offshore pay less in things like social security, but I wonder how their gross and net profits are derived and taxed.

reply to post by slank

are you only going to include the poor, the most vulnerable, the ones who don't benefit from government sponsored corporate welfare?

No, but how 'bout the ones who DO benefit from government- sponsored SOCIAL welfare?

jw

reply to post by ImaNutter

Do you realize how poor these people actually are, that get money back? How much do you suggest taking on top of sales tax, income tax, property taxes, etc etc from the $15,000 a year these people are making? You can work at McD's and still pay federal income tax....

25%, which is what I believe it should be across the board no matter how much you make.

You should brush up on your medicaid to correct your opinion.

Trust me I know. Being poor and white and a male I can never receive medical aid from any agency, be it state, federal, or even local. Being poor isn't the sole requirement, specifically children is, however a middle class family still has to pay, while poor do not.



The entire point: You have to be poor. So I fail to see why your panties are in a bunch trying to argue with me when you've only backed what I said?

Just as there are deductions and credits available to the rich which will never, ever be available to the bottom half. You really think the poor are the ones cheating you?

but that's regardless and besides the point. If the "rich" get a deduction, it's only a small portion of their total tax obligation. The problem with the poor is that after deduction and credit, they get a SURPLUS of money, they take back more than paid in.

THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES POPULATION IS BEING OVER TAXED!

Agreed. Which is why I favor either a flat sales tax of 50% or a income tax of 25%. Regardless of how poor you are. No deductions, no credits, you make it you pay.

Originally posted by faceoff85
reply to post by Helghast1

 

Trying to start a convo by adding a controversial standpoint? At least thats what I think you're doing.. nobody in their right mind could propose something like that, and mean it...

Yet you grossly overlook the OPs stance as not controversial? It only takes a few seconds to see the following facts:

The bottom 20 percent of income earners' share of federal income taxes fell from -1.6 percent in 2000 to -2.8 percent in 2006.

In case you cannot understand this, the bottom 20 percent received more money from the Federal Government than they put into the system.

The next 20 percent's share declined from 1.1 percent to -0.8 percent

Wait....so you are saying that the bottom 40 percent of American's in terms of income actually pay no Federal Taxes and receive more money back via tax breaks, tax credits, etc than they put into the system?

The bottom 20 percent shared .8 of the tax liability while the top 20 percent's share was 69.3%.

Yet there are approximately the same number of house holds for each quintile. So why are they so disproportionate? Why have you claimed that someone is making a controversial stance when the OP has not done their homework to realize that OVER 40% of the population of persons that work do not pay taxes but rather get paid!

Oh and before the claims of a slanted source or no source at all you can find that data here: CBO Report

Maybe this is why the SCOTUS just gave us all the right to protect our "property". Do they know something we don't?

(Reuters) - Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, . . .

www.reuters.com...

Is there ANY question as to how corrupt, rotten & unfair the US system is?

Keep in mind they freeload off our highways, electric grid, police, legal system, etc.

And THEN they get big corporate welfare contracts from the government as well as rigging all the law [which their lobbyists actually write] to benefit them & screw all the American people.

Our tax system is an obscenity.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by slank]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by ImaNutter

25%, which is what I believe it should be across the board no matter how much you make.

Will comment more on this belloowww....

Trust me I know. Being poor and white and a male I can never receive medical aid from any agency, be it state, federal, or even local. Being poor isn't the sole requirement, specifically children is, however a middle class family still has to pay, while poor do not.

The entire point: You have to be poor. So I fail to see why your panties are in a bunch trying to argue with me when you've only backed what I said?

You just contradicted yourself. "Being poor and white...I can never receive medicaid." "The entire point, you have to be poor." Apparently that's not the point.

The point is is if you fricking need it or not.

A 25 year old family member, with college degree, is on medicaid right now because they had a mental breakdown and lost their job. It happens...

Also, medicaid is huge on the liquidation of your property. If you thought you were POOR trying to get medicaid, wait until you find out that you can't own anything... and what you do own, must be sold first and the money is paid to the GOVERNMENT.

For instance, my dear ol' grandmother, living by herself at the ripe old age of 82 who paid her house off god knows how long ago... just recently within the last year "gave" her house to my mother and uncle. If the house stayed in my grandmother's name and she needed medicaid at some point, they would force her to liquidate all her assets and TAKE the money... before she can receive medicaid. And my mother has had a sit down with all of us explaining she is going to "give" her house to us here very soon also to make sure the government doesn't take it if she gets sick. There are a lot of families on the teetering edge like that, mine was/is probably still one of them. To take away an entire piece of property and all of its worth... that's sick. When you are talking about a through and through middle class family that got the mortgage, and paid it off over decades.... that is the entirety of our wealth... our homes. You can take one or two or three homes from the uber-rich (hell, how many homes does mccain have? does he even know?) and their wealth is not only intact, but they can create serious dough with the millions lefts in the bank. Their wealth is strong enough to lose something like a house where the middle class would crumble if the government takes all of your equity away... which is exactly what they will do.

"Sure we'll try and keep you alive, but you won't have anywhere to live!!!"

Medicaid is also a JOINT federal-state program. Do you know what this means? State's pay a large portion of the funding. STATE. We all pay state income tax, or higher than average sales taxes. We all pay local taxes, remember? Poor or rich. The poor pay into medicaid, sorry.

And not only that, the poor are FORCED to become even more poor should they need the service.

So yes... the poor not only pay into medicaid, but they give their lives away for it, should they need it. Pretty daggon sad if you ask me.

but that's regardless and besides the point. If the "rich" get a deduction, it's only a small portion of their total tax obligation. The problem with the poor is that after deduction and credit, they get a SURPLUS of money, they take back more than paid in.

One, they don't just get "a" deduction. Research for yourself the entirety of tax deductions for the rich. Yacht tax reduction was just too rich (pun intended) to leave out of the last post though...

Two, not true. Look into how much Exxon and GE paid into federal taxes last year. Talk about "a deduction" lol It is kind of ironic that the poorest of poor don't end up paying federal income tax, and neither do the richest of rich... but we're arguing about poor people? Do you see the mistake yet?

Agreed. Which is why I favor either a flat sales tax of 50% or a income tax of 25%. Regardless of how poor you are. No deductions, no credits, you make it you pay.

And full circle from what you first said in this post to here, I agree with you. The only way to fairly tax the entire population is a flat percentage tax on ALL sales.

If you buy a $10,000,000 home in the hills... you pay, we'll use your number, %50 tax on that purchase. If your on the other side and you just bought a mobile home for $25,000... you pay 50% on that purchase. Buy a $400 of scotch, pay 50% tax. Buy a $12 bottle of that horrible vodka, pay 50%.

I'd like to see something like 5% local sales tax, 10% state sales tax, and 35% federal sales tax. Get rid of everything else. This would be for private citizens though and I think the corporate tax code should be re-written entirely, but that's getting into the infamous "corporations are citizens" debacle.

I just want to point out again... that neither the most poor nor the most rich pay federal income tax... but we're having an argument about the poor screwing over rich people.

Hilarious.




[edit on 28-6-2010 by ImaNutter]

[edit on 28-6-2010 by ImaNutter]

reply to post by slank


Well, that is correct to an extent but the article fails to mention the amount of Capital Gains taxes those companies pay. Yet again, the media pushes what it wants readers to feel.

Case in point, Warren Buffet can effectively state that he pays a lower income tax than any of his employees. Reason being is Buffet pays capital gains tax while his employees pay an income tax.

It is also why when a president claims they are going to help small businesses by cutting capital gains tax it is not doing as much as the general public thinks the tax cut will do. As most small businesses are either self proprietorship or some sort of partnership. Even if they are structured under an S-Corp, they are worried about the profit on their income. They pay taxes on income, just like an individual. Unless a small business is worried about paying taxes from the profit of a non-inventory asset that was bought for a lower price, those tax cuts mean nothing to small business directly.

Continue spreading half-truths though without really challenging yourself to critically think. Continue to push the envy.

Increase taxes on the poor? Screw that. Let's go back to pre-Regan era taxation on the Rich (ie 70+ percent of income taxed).

Someone who makes 1 Billion a year can live comfortably on 200,000,000 a year.

Someone who makes 1,000,000 a year can live comfortably on 200,000 a year.

Anyone that disagrees is nothing more then greedy. There's a reason why the top 1 percent control almost half of the wealth of a nation. Greed.

And for those who say the poor and middle class don't pay anything, right... You must not have seen my tax return. Granted, I received a refund, but they keep some (approximately 1/ 15th of my income). That amount hurt. Not to mention, how much I pay towards other taxes (sales, sin, Gas, so forth). And I'm paying student loan payments on top of that. How can a person survive and thrive? We can't...

So am I supposed to work, just to pay it all back in taxes? Never move up the ladder? Am I a slave?

Also, when has increasing taxes on the poor, every helped?

Reduce spending, and cut back on our military conquest (read up on Rome for a hint on where that will lead us). Also, stop with the bailouts and bring back manufacturing. Maybe end Nafta (de-industrialized USA). All better ways to help, then by taxing the poor.

Where's Robin Hood when we need him?

reply to post by ownbestenemy

Instead of talking trash and make believe, why don't you consider what the real tax returns and the Tax Foundation says:

ExxonMobil corporate tax for 2004: $27.9billion

2004 Total number of tax returns: 130 million

Number of Tax Returns for the Bottom 50%: 65 million

Adjusted Gross Income for the Bottom 50%: $922 billion

Total Income Tax Paid by the Bottom 50%: $27.4 billion

Conclusion: In other words, just one corporation (Exxon Mobil) paid as much in taxes ($27 billion) annually as the entire bottom 50% of individual taxpayers, which is 65,000,000 people!

Further, the tax rate for the bottom 50% is only 3% of adjusted gross income ($27.4 billion / $922 billion), and the tax rate for Exxon was 41% in 2004 ($67.4 billion in taxable income, $27.9 billion in taxes).

seekingalpha.com...

For Tax year 2007, the top 50% of wage earners (incomes greater than $32,897) paid 97.11% of income taxes.

The bottom 50% (incomes less than $32,879) paid 2.89%.

The top 25% of earners (more than $62,539) paid 86.59% of all income taxes.

Corporations paid an average of 39.25% federal income tax rate (does not include State and local taxes).

AND,

Contrary to popular misconception, the ultimate burden of corporate income taxes doesn't fall on corporations, but is instead borne by workers, shareholders and consumers.

www.taxfoundation.org...

Maybe you should also consider that some of the largest corporations, like GM and Chrysler, American Airlines and AIG actually LOST money in recent years.

No income, no taxes.
www.taxfoundation.org...

deny ignorance

jw



[edit on 28-6-2010 by jdub297]

As it is, the so-called poor, pay no taxes, but vote.
Will they ever vote down tax increases? Not likely.

If the so-called poor have to pay taxes, how do you think they will vote on any increases?

Why "so-called poor", you ask?

Take a look around the world and compare American poor to the truly poor of the world and you'll see for yourself.

reply to post by wookiee


so, you would prefer an aids stricken poor person from south africa serving you your big macs?????

there's a few problelms such proverty brings to society, ya know, untreated contagious diseases, crime, beggers on the street, run down delapidated, unsafe houses, child labor, illiteracy...
you would prefer being hit full face with those problems instead.