What If Adam and Eve Didn't Sin?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Thanks so much for your response! I will try to respond the best I can!

Well, key to this idea is the original meaning of the word "sin." Which meant to "miss the mark" or to err. It has become loaded with other connotations, moral ones, but that doesnt mean it was intended that way.

I see! If what you say is true, that the original definition of the sin is not what it is today, why did God not specify this clearly, because a HUGE majority believe it has the connotations you say it was not intended to have.

This also does not change the fact that God was aware they would disobey, but allowed it to happen anyway.

As I see it, God when giving Adam and Eve what many feel was their "punishment," is simply reading off a list of natural outcomes of the new form of thinking they had infected themselves with.

Reading off a list of natural outcomes, I can agree with this! However, being sent out of paradise for going against God (something God knew was going to happen) does feel like a punishment to me.

I think judging things "good/bad" "good/evil" is what causes us distress.

I agree, sort of! I think something is good if it is beneficial to society, and it is bad if it is not beneficial to society. It gets deeper than that, but that is the basics. I do think you shouldn't judge something 'right off the bat', but should examine it first.

I personally dont think the Bible can be read as a literal truth, but I think there are clues to "truths" in there.

I have a problem with this. Why would God 'hide' his truths in the Bible? A much more logically Bible would be one that gave a set of rules to follow. Stories showing examples would be fine, as long as it specifically cites it's just a story.

I believe this because you can see similarities, (flood stories, an original man and woman) in most of them, though other things have been added in, and others left out.

You make a good point! It is quite interesting that these similarities appear in so many different cultures! However, you say some add and some left out. I do not understand how God would allow what would become his word to be changed in any way.

I think that when you sift out the common elements, you begin to get an idea what the original point of the whole story was, which seems to me about how to live here on this Earth in harmony with it, and with internal harmony as well, so that it would be joyful, rather than stressful and sad.

I agree with you! However, I do not think one should HAVE to sift out the common elements. As stated above, the Bible should be more clear so it is easier to accept for EVERYONE. It would cause a lot less controversy over the subject.

I think it is a different form of judgment than just the basic "danger" kind of judgment.

For this paragraph, I pretty much understand where you are coming from and retract my previous statement. I have to say that in the sense you put it, I act 'like a child'. I do not 'make up big stories' about other people if I get angry. I like to put negative things in the past.

Because he is not the only son. We are all the sons and daughters of God.

In this paragraph, you didn't necessarily address my point. I now accept it was not saying Jesus was the only son of god, but what of my other point? Why would God let the true meaning of Jesus to be twisted by anyone?

I often think I dont fear death either.

For this paragraph, I have to agree. I really have not experienced the threat of death, so I can't say how I would feel.


Thanks so much for your time, and I am very glad to have this discussion with someone who seems to be much more experienced than I am!

Kind regards

reply to post by shasta9600


If he imagines what might be in the future he is still imagining "what if" which he says there is no "what if."

you know, after having a child almost 6 years ago, this christianity stuff really hit home. i never really gave much a thought about these things, but now it was almost like, i need to figure out whats true, at least for the sake of my son.

i recently learned that the whole eternity hell thing is a lie, or that it could be all a misunderstanding. it may turn out that the question is whether you wanna live forever or not, which would require faith in christ, our lord

or you could wait for man to develop the science and technology and live forever, maybe through mind uploading or with implants.
this would bring the ultimate conflict i think between god and man.....

You recently learned that the whole eternity hell thing is a lie?

I would be quite interested in how you came to this conclusion! I have not heard of it before. I was always taught quite clearly that hell was an everlasting thing.

Kind regards

What if. What if, could be what is, so what now for a what if could be for a what is and a what the hell.

reply to post by Hitotsumami


If you want to discuss what the bible says I will point you to Gen 2:16-17.

King James

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


If mankind were to go to hell for disobeying god then why doesn't he mention that to Adam in the beginning? Would have been a nice thing for Adam to know, don't you think?

Originally posted by Hitotsumami

you know, after having a child almost 6 years ago, this christianity stuff really hit home. i never really gave much a thought about these things, but now it was almost like, i need to figure out whats true, at least for the sake of my son.

i recently learned that the whole eternity hell thing is a lie, or that it could be all a misunderstanding. it may turn out that the question is whether you wanna live forever or not, which would require faith in christ, our lord

or you could wait for man to develop the science and technology and live forever, maybe through mind uploading or with implants.
this would bring the ultimate conflict i think between god and man.....

You recently learned that the whole eternity hell thing is a lie?

I would be quite interested in how you came to this conclusion! I have not heard of it before. I was always taught quite clearly that hell was an everlasting thing.

Kind regards

yes, recently learned. its interpretation which gets lost in translation. ill see if i can find the web link where i read that we dont suffer eternally in hell because we have to be reborn through faith in christ for us to live forever. in fact it is the fallen angels that will suffer forever because they had full knowledge of the lord and still defied him.
would you sleep better at night knowing that you may not suffer in hell for eternity? what if you do suffer but only for punishment deserved. for instance what if you do rot in hell for say....an equal amount of time you lived on earth. would that be worth it to you?
just making suggestions i have no idea what god's punishment would be. it makes sense that he wouldn't torture people just for them not following him.

Originally posted by taccj9903
reply to post by Hitotsumami

 

If you want to discuss what the bible says I will point you to Gen 2:16-17.

King James

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


If mankind were to go to hell for disobeying god then why doesn't he mention that to Adam in the beginning? Would have been a nice thing for Adam to know, don't you think?

Thank you for your response!

It certainly would be a good thing to tell him! To clear up my previous post, I was not specifically saying that Adam or Eve would be the 'children' who went to hell, but the billions that came after.

Please explain to me if I misunderstood your statement!

Kind regards

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior

yes, recently learned. its interpretation which gets lost in translation. ill see if i can find the web link where i read that we dont suffer eternally in hell because we have to be reborn through faith in christ for us to live forever. in fact it is the fallen angels that will suffer forever because they had full knowledge of the lord and still defied him.
would you sleep better at night knowing that you may not suffer in hell for eternity? what if you do suffer but only for punishment deserved. for instance what if you do rot in hell for say....an equal amount of time you lived on earth. would that be worth it to you?
just making suggestions i have no idea what god's punishment would be. it makes sense that he wouldn't torture people just for them not following him.

Thank you for the response!

I will keep an eye open for your source! As for the rest of your post. Just to make sure you are aware, I do not believe in any God. I will answer the following questions as if I DID believe.

what if you do suffer but only for punishment deserved. for instance what if you do rot in hell for say....an equal amount of time you lived on earth. would that be worth it to you?

In my personal opinion, if God is real and punishes for sin, I think a just punishment should be equal to the crime done. Like our own system where people are sent to prison for an amount of time based on their crime.

The only 'sin' that I think should have an eternal punishment is killing another human being purposely with a clear mind and full intent of what you are doing. Do I think this person should be tortured forever?

I don't know. This is debatable. Perhaps an eternal, non torturous, separation, if that makes any sense.

Thanks again for responding!

Kind regards


[edit on 27-6-2010 by Hitotsumami]

reply to post by Hitotsumami



What I am saying is that if hell does exist and people do go there, then it is my opinion that Adam & Eve at least should be top candidates to be there since they are supposedly the reason why we are in this mess to begin with. However, I personally don't believe in such a place, just my two cents if it all were true.

Originally posted by taccj9903
reply to post by Hitotsumami

 

What I am saying is that if hell does exist and people do go there, then it is my opinion that Adam & Eve at least should be top candidates to be there since they are supposedly the reason why we are in this mess to begin with. However, I personally don't believe in such a place, just my two cents if it all were true.

Ah, I quite agree with you in that case! I do not think I should be blamed for my far ancestors crime. It would not make sense to send my great grandson to jail because I stole from a bank.

However, as far as I know, everyone is automatically, by default, destined to Hell, unless they accept Jesus. God knows not everyone is going to do this, and some for very good, logical reason, yet he pays this no mind and allows it to occur.

I understand that you don't believe in Hell, and I am just continuing my train of thought in the above paragraph, haha.

Kind regards

Originally posted by taccj9903
reply to post by Hitotsumami

 

If you want to discuss what the bible says I will point you to Gen 2:16-17.

King James

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


If mankind were to go to hell for disobeying god then why doesn't he mention that to Adam in the beginning? Would have been a nice thing for Adam to know, don't you think?

Read what you posted, with a TINY amount of common sense a conclusion can be made.

You won't be damned to hell for eating from the tree. You will be damned to hell for committing acts of sin. Which you would have had no knowledge of unless you ate from the tree.

The act of eating from a tree doesn't condemn you. It's committing the acts of sin AFTER gaining knowledge of what it is, which damns you to hell.

I thought everyone with a basic understanding of the story knew this?

reply to post by Gakus


I have to disagree, the bible says eat from that tree and you will die, if you interrupt that differently than that is your opinion it is not common knowledge.

However, does it really matter? Eating from a tree you were told not to eat from or sinning after eating from the tree. If you are sent to hell I think the crime ought to fit the punishment, there is more than one way to commit a sin.

[edit on 27-6-2010 by taccj9903]

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Originally posted by Gakus

Read what you posted, with a TINY amount of common sense a conclusion can be made.

You won't be damned to hell for eating from the tree. You will be damned to hell for committing acts of sin. Which you would have had no knowledge of unless you ate from the tree.

The act of eating from a tree doesn't condemn you. It's committing the acts of sin AFTER gaining knowledge of what it is, which damns you to hell.

I thought everyone with a basic understanding of the story knew this?

I know this wasn't posted towards me, but I am quite interested in your position!

I am willing to accept that it wasn't eating from a fruit that was the crime, but disobeying god that was the crime.

I posted the following earlier, but I would be very interested in hearing your response!

God was aware that Adam and Eve would commit that crime, and this would lead to billions spending eternity in Hell, but allowed for it to occur anyway. I do not quite understand why!

If you have any explanation, or theory about it, I would very much appreciate hearing it!

Kind regards

Originally posted by Gakus

Originally posted by taccj9903
reply to post by Gakus

 

I have to disagree, the bible says eat from that tree and you will die, if you interrupt that differently than that is your opinion it is not common knowledge.

You are attempting to twist words to suit your own agenda, which is downright ignorant and disgusting.

You know full well that isn't what is meant, unless you lack an IQ level above 70. You should honestly be ashamed of your self.

Continue playing dumb?
You aren't providing a decent counter-argument.

Either produce a decent argument or honestly stop trolling.

God said something about you will_be killed IF eaten from the tree. Meaning that, Eve + Adam would be taken too Earth, 'because of' - "Earth Life" will result in death, after living.

reply to post by gordonwest


Weren't they already on earth?

Originally posted by Hitotsumami

Originally posted by Gakus

Read what you posted, with a TINY amount of common sense a conclusion can be made.

You won't be damned to hell for eating from the tree. You will be damned to hell for committing acts of sin. Which you would have had no knowledge of unless you ate from the tree.

The act of eating from a tree doesn't condemn you. It's committing the acts of sin AFTER gaining knowledge of what it is, which damns you to hell.

I thought everyone with a basic understanding of the story knew this?

I know this wasn't posted towards me, but I am quite interested in your position!

I am willing to accept that it wasn't eating from a fruit that was the crime, but disobeying god that was the crime.

I posted the following earlier, but I would be very interested in hearing your response!

God was aware that Adam and Eve would commit that crime, and this would lead to billions spending eternity in Hell, but allowed for it to occur anyway. I do not quite understand why!

If you have any explanation, or theory about it, I would very much appreciate hearing it!

Kind regards

After humanity gained the knowledge of what is "right and wrong" god allowed mankind to exist because he saw the good in our souls, our hearts.

That is why he gave us a set of laws AFTERWARDS to live our lives by because we found out what is "right or wrong."

God didn't make man-kind demanding we follow his path, we were given free will. We follow our own path, God just happens to know where that path will lead.

Let me ask you this. In a war isn't one innocent life to many to be killed in your eyes?(if it isn't you need to gain a bit of humanity) perhaps in god's eyes one innocent soul condemned to hell is to much?

He allows us to live our own lives and CHOOSE the path we wish to follow. He gave us free-will for a reason.