Refuting The Lies Of Looters

Originally posted by mnemeth1
Ah, but at least you would be paying "Cosa Nostra" protection money voluntarily.

When the State runs the security, they hold a gun to your head.

Under a private system, if you don't want protection, you don't have to buy it. This may be fine for safe areas or for people that like to carry a gun.

When the State offers security services, they come to your home and put a gun to your head, forcing you to pay for it.

Which is a more civilized system?

Well "Cosa Nostra" makes offers you can't refuse so to me they seem about the same.

For example in the situation I mentioned I may have been able to work if I had struck a deal and offered to hand over a cut. No gun to the head but I would still be handing over money I had righfully earned to someone else because of their position above the law.

I get the illusion of choice so that makes it seem more civil but in the end it's still looting be it public or private.

Originally posted by daskakik
Well "Cosa Nostra" makes offers you can't refuse so to me they seem about the same.

For example in the situation I mentioned I may have been able to work if I had struck a deal and offered to hand over a cut. No gun to the head but I would still be handing over money I had righfully earned to someone else because of their position above the law.

I get the illusion of choice so that makes it seem more civil but in the end it's still looting be it public or private.

The difference is one is voluntary, the other is not.

Paying a private security firm for services is voluntary.

Paying the State for security services is not voluntary.

You are correct that public security is just like the Mafia, there is no difference.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by mnemeth1]

Originally posted by mnemeth1
The difference is one is voluntary, the other is not.

Paying a private security firm for services is voluntary.

Paying the State for security services is not voluntary.

You are correct that public security is just like the Mafia, there is no difference.

It isn't voluntary if you have to have it. The only thing is that you would get to choose the security company you wish to employ.

Public security is just like the mafia but the mafia started out as private security. What does that tell you?

Originally posted by daskakik
It isn't voluntary if you have to have it. The only thing is that you would get to choose the security company you wish to employ.

Public security is just like the mafia but the mafia started out as private security. What does that tell you?

You don't have to have it.

You can carry your own gun.

I personally wouldn't pay it if they offered a subscription fee. I might call them if I had a problem that need to be resolved though, in which case they would probably charge me a higher one time fee for services rendered.

I have a gun, so to me police are unnecessary.

The mafia didn't start out as a security service, it grew out of areas that government had made illegal.

Drugs, gambling, and other black market goods is how the mafia obtained its power.

It was within these areas that government had criminalized that the mafia was able to monopolize and exploit for its own gain.

Today, the biggest organized crime rings all revolve around drugs.





[edit on 3-6-2010 by mnemeth1]

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by hawkiye

 

WOW! I dont even remember replying to you at all. Its deffinately nice to see that you are standing up for someone else. Only if you could do that in reality.

It appears to me that you and your friends best bet would be to poole up your money and buy a houseboat and go live in international waters.
MessOnTheFED!

[edit on 3-6-2010 by MessOnTheFED!]

No thanks I prefer to enjoy my own property despite thieves and criminals who think they are good citizens despite thier sanction of theft and murder and think they have a right to steal my property, or tell me what to do, or force me off of it if I refuse to participate in thier Mafia protection racket.

Oh and I'll respond to whom I please when posted on a public forum. If you wish to speak privately to someone alone then you are free take it off board.

reply to post by mnemeth1


This is from wikipedia on the Sicilian Mafia:

It is estimated that the Sicilian Mafia costs the Sicilian economy more than €10 billion a year through protection rackets. Roughly 80% of Sicilian businesses pay protection money to Cosa Nostra. Monthly payments can range from €200 for a small shop or bar to €5,000 for a supermarket. Targets who refuse to buy protection are usually harassed, often through property damage; physical assault is rare. In Sicily, protection money is known as pizzo; the anti-extortion support group Addiopizzo derives its name from this.

The security providers will make sure you need it.

Your gun is of little help if they break into your business when you are not there or maybe they force their other "clients" to boycott your business until you come around. Hey you don't want to pay one family then you could go with the other family. You see you have a choice and you get to vote with your feet.

In the end your still paying taxes but just calling it something else.

reply to post by daskakik


"Sociologist Diego Gambetta writes that such activities are one of the main reasons the Mafia has survived more than a century of government efforts to destroy it: the people who willingly solicit these services protect the Mafia from the authorities."

That is a voluntary cooperation. The mafia's "protection racket" is something the people want above and beyond police enforcement.

----

"By the late 1990s, the weakened Cosa Nostra had to yield most of the illegal drug trade to the 'Ndrangheta crime organization from Calabria.[citation needed] In 2006, the latter was estimated to control 80% of the coc aine import to Europe.[86]"

money from drugs, which it can only make because the government has made them illegal.

---

"The Sicilian Mafia in Italy is believed to have a turnover of €6.5 billion through control of public and private contracts.[27] Mafiosi use threats of violence and vandalism to muscle out competitors and win contracts for the companies they control.[26] They rarely manage the businesses they control themselves, but take a cut of their profits, usually through payoffs (pizzo).[46]"

government contracts, who'd of thunk?




Now ask yourself why a shop owner would willingly pay the mafia protection money.

They do it because they know that if someone robs them, the f'n mafia will hunt them down and kick their azz, unlike the police who will sit around and eat doughnuts. Now that's a security service haha.



[edit on 3-6-2010 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1


My point was that the Cosa Nostra began as private security. In the New World they became the mafia and started going into other criminal endevors.

My point is that if one group tries to muscle you into buying protection you either buy from them or from some other group to protect you from the first group. Either way they make sure you are paying.

If it's to the gov it's called tax and if it's to private security its a monthly expense. In either case it's your money being forced from your pocket. You can choose not to pay but then you have to face the consequences. In most cases people will pay.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

My point was that the Cosa Nostra began as private security. In the New World they became the mafia and started going into other criminal endevors.

My point is that if one group tries to muscle you into buying protection you either buy from them or from some other group to protect you from the first group. Either way they make sure you are paying.

If it's to the gov it's called tax and if it's to private security its a monthly expense. In either case it's your money being forced from your pocket. You can choose not to pay but then you have to face the consequences. In most cases people will pay.

I disagree

Because in a free society without government, the mafia would not be able to monopolize force.

The mafia gets away with what it does because of its control over black markets and government.

The mafia does not face competition over its "protection" rackets.

In a free society, such protection businesses would be above-board so people would have a choice of what security they wanted to subscribe to. They would also have a choice not to pay.

However, even if I WAS forced to pay protection money, I would much rather be forced to pay a protection fee to a private thug security organization than to pay a tax to a corrupt government.

At least the mafia would actually protect me and extract payment from anyone that robbed me.

Who would you fear more if you robbed someone?

The mafia coming after you or the cops?

I'd fear the mafia 10x more.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1

Now ask yourself why a shop owner would willingly pay the mafia protection money.

They do it because they know that if someone robs them, the f'n mafia will hunt them down and kick their azz, unlike the police who will sit around and eat doughnuts. Now that's a security service haha.

Ummmm....NO.

They pay them "protection" money so the Mafia doesn't rob their store and set it on fire.

It's protections money to protect them from the Mafia.

Please tell me you are not that naive.

reply to post by mnemeth1


No one said it would be a monopoly on force but a sharing like the actual mafia with families controlling certain cities or even certain areas.

Outkast does make a good point that the protection is from the mafia itself although it also means that they will go after anyone that messes with you.

You'd rather pay a private thug instead of a corrupt government. To me they are one and the same so I have no problem with paying my taxes.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

No one said it would be a monopoly on force but a sharing like the actual mafia with families controlling certain cities or even certain areas.

Outkast does make a good point that the protection is from the mafia itself although it also means that they will go after anyone that messes with you.

You'd rather pay a private thug instead of a corrupt government. To me they are one and the same so I have no problem with paying my taxes.

I don't feel his point is valid because, as the researcher points out, the people WANT the protection service. They are actively seeking out the mafia and REQUESTING protection services.

If you read further, it says incidents of people getting beat up for not paying are rare.

They are rare because most people WANT the protection offered by the mafia.

And I also disagree that paying protection money is the same as paying taxes. Taxes are used for all manner of evil, not just protection services. War would be impossible without taxes. Genocide would be impossible without taxes. Government contracts, kickbacks, and central banks would be impossible without taxes.

All evil stems from taxes.

The mafia might beat you up for not paying protection money, but they aren't going to seize your home and auction it off at tax sale.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by mnemeth1]

Originally posted by mnemeth1
I don't feel his point is valid because, as the researcher points out, the people WANT the protection service. They are actively seeking out the mafia and REQUESTING protection services.

If you read further, it says incidents of people getting beat up for not paying are rare.

They are rare because most people WANT the protection offered by the mafia.

And I also disagree that paying protection money is the same as paying taxes. Taxes are used for all manner of evil, not just protection services. War would be impossible without taxes. Genocide would be impossible without taxes. Government contracts, kickbacks, and central banks would be impossible without taxes.

All evil stems from taxes.

The mafia might beat you up for not paying protection money, but they aren't going to seize your home and auction it off at tax sale.

Somehow I doubt that their clients would bad mouth the mafia but I guess it is possible. They do abuse their authority from time to time.

The mafia as in the "Italian Mafia" isn't going to seize your home and auction it off. That would be the "Banker Mafia". You see in the government and all around it, in the form of private companies, are mafias. They are one and the same.

You have a problem with the word tax but to me it's just money that they would end up getting out of your pocket one way or another and all the evils that you attribute to taxes would still come about from this money.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by daskakik]

Originally posted by daskakik
all the evils that you attribute to taxes would still come about from this money.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by daskakik]

How do you figure?

If there was no federal government, and all the states acted as little countries, do you think they would have all decided to pick a fight with Saddam or go in to Viet Nam?

Hell no.

What I am advocating is reducing "government" if you want to call it that, down to the lowest common denominator, which are private groups of people.

Without a functional State, such atrocities and violations of liberty are avoided entirely.

reply to post by hawkiye


Are you mad because you forgot to pay your taxes or something? Are you now facing forclosure and want to vent about your hate for the "criminals" "stealing" your property? I guess you dont realize that you have it better than most of the people on this planet, yet you complain as if someone was actually beating your face in and demanding money? You are quite rediculus good sir. Are you just parinoid or something? Do you have booby traps and land mines around your house? Just wondering...

MessOnTheFED!

reply to post by mnemeth1


I get what you are getting at but my point is that even in groups of tens of thousands there is the potential for tyrannical groups to exist. No need for a federal gov to bring them into being.

If the states acted like little countries they would not have picked a fight with Sadam. They would have just fought each other (civil war) and sooner or later they would have set up the federal gov and someone much like Saddam would have ended up swinging.

Today I caught some of geithner's act. The botox injections to the forehead creases are working quite well. He has the nerve to tell the world he's 'holding the world to a higher financial standard'. He was tossing around world order keywords like 'common purpose' or 'common direction'. The balls to continue pressing on with the world government scheme! It was a bit disheartening, quite expected, and contained boondoggle 'solutions' that are chock full o nuts. Looks like another crisis is being taken advantage of, on a world stage. I don't know if you caught any of it, but it's worth taking a look at. None of it was fannie or freddie's fault. Most of us are simply going to have to suffer through foreclosure, because (we ain't seen nothing yet?) the economy's showing growth, the banks are hungry, and we can't stop that party!



[edit on 3-6-2010 by davidmann]

reply to post by MessOnTheFED!

Its TAXES not THEFT.

Income taxes are theft.

Don't you find it odd that our forefathers set up a republic respecting property rights first and for most...and then somehow we are being forced for the "good of the community...Comrade" to give up our property on the threat of force and imprisonment?

Sounds like theft to me.

If I were to break into your home and rob you blind, but excuse my behavior on the grounds that I will be using you property to better the poor community that I live in...you would be livid.

And rightfully so.

You cannot tax someone's labor because labor is property; but, you can tax sale items, and imports and exports...which is the way it is supposed to be. The American republic got along just fine for how long before income taxes came along?

reply to post by hawkiye

Some common areas people can cut back. are stop buying lunch at work and pack your lunch. I know folks who spend $40-$60 a week on lunches. Crap foods like sodas cookies candy etc. Hobbies. Do you really need the latest CD or Movie or? etc etc etc.

Now every time you go to the store buy some extra canned goods they are cheap and build up fast and you'll hardly notice the extra cost. If you can by wheat rice and beans in bulk 50-100 pounds it is relatively cheap anywhere from 10-20 dollars. Check LDS canneries in your phone book. Water is the most under prepared for item.

Unless you're destitute there is really no excuse for not getting prepared. Check out this site: www.preparednesspro.com...

Thank you for the advice, and I will be sure to check out that website.

reply to post by negativenihil

What is to stop this person from say... requiring that you either surrender your person firearms to him or a 3rd party while you labor for him on his property?

Absolutely nothing is stopping them, if it is their property they can ask you to do what they like as long as you are on it.

But the moment someone asks me to lay down my weapon is the moment I am walking...

I mean you're starving right? And then what's to stop him from say... putting some sort of restraining device on your person while you are indebted to him for the food he's shared with you and yours? Again, it's this or starvation.

If those are my only choices then I choose death, I refuse to live as someone's slave...better to die with my dignity intact.

And once again, if I am on another person's property there is nothing to stop them from making such suggestions...of course it would require my compliance; in which case that would be my indicator to leave.

What's to stop him from never removing these restraining devices when he decides he likes your labor too much to let you go?

His or her own conscience?

But either than that, not much.

It seems those of you who are so anti-government and anti-tax really expect the best out of people in the worst situations.

I think that you are mistaken when you brand people who staunchly support the values our forefathers used to create our republic. We are not "anti-government" in fact, I would like to see the federal government put back in its Constitutional box it belongs in. These United States created for themselves a republican form of government to protect the natural rights their Creator endowed them with.

We have fallen far from the tree.

I personally expect and plan for the worst.

That is great.

Just remember that we have come to this point where we feel like we have to have some Government official breathing down our necks to get things done. We do not need the Government to hold our hand, and human beings can act justly when instilled with values that they defend with their lives. We have lost our sense of responsibility to ourselves and our communities, and we have forgotten what it means to live as Citizens of a republic. Even if our whole world goes crazy, I will help those who need it, and rightfully protect myself in the process.