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Refuting The Lies Of Looters

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posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by mnemeth1
What you are describing is a situation that has no security services and no courts.


That is were you are wrong. I could have very well taken them to court. There are laws and I could have filed charges but of course they would have denied that any of that had ever happened and it is their word against mine. I would have ended up looking over my shoulder everytime I was out on the streets.

That is the point. Government or not people who have economic power can always get over on those that don't. They don't need a government to intimidate or to pay someone to do dirty deeds.


That doesn't sound like they have "economic" power, it sounds like they have a monopoly on force.

What you are saying must not be true, because if security was adequate and the courts were adequate, such a situation as you describe would be impossible.

It is a lack of security and a lack of proper courts that is allowing this to continue, it has nothing to do with their "economic" power.




posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Ok...last chance...I'm going to ask you one more time. This is the last chance you have to prove you are not a hypocrite and that you practice what you preach. If you don't answer...I am just going to assume that you are a hypocrite and in fact participate in this "criminal" system you hate so much.

Do you use any of the services I have on that list???



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
That doesn't sound like they have "economic" power, it sounds like they have a monopoly on force.

What you are saying must not be true, because if security was adequate and the courts were adequate, such a situation as you describe would be impossible.

It is a lack of security and a lack of proper courts that is allowing this to continue, it has nothing to do with their "economic" power.


A monopoly by force usually goes hand in hand with economic power.

Lack of security and lack of proper courts? How are they going to help me when I'm walking around in public and someone they paid to do me in starts popping lead into me.

Like I said this is the real world not the bunch if academic lectures you keep refering to. Only in these types of speeches is this situation "impossible" with adequate security and courts.

In the real world organized and unorganized crime do exist and when someone has the cash then he can have a court lean his way or have cops look the other way or have witnesses change their story.

This of course does not detract from the OP about the government being thugs but these "families" that start to wield power and influence in a community are the ones that end up being the government. They have just found less confrontational ways of fleecing you.



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


Hey, I don't disagree that organized crime will always be a problem.

However, if more security will not solve the problem as you claim, then how is more government going to solve the problem?

How would government solve this problem?

You seem to think government can solve something the private sector can't. I don't follow your logic here. If more private security can't solve the problem, then I don't see how public security could solve the problem.





[edit on 3-6-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by daskakik
 


Hey, I don't disagree that organized crime will always be a problem.

However, if more security will not solve the problem as you claim, then how is more government going to solve the problem?

How would government solve this problem?

You seem to think government can solve something the private sector can't. I don't follow your logic here. If more private security can't solve the problem, then I don't see how public security could solve the problem.


I never said more public security would solve the problem. I'm saying that the wealthy families (elites, bourgeois, PTB, corporations) have found and will always find the way to keep their power and this is how it starts. They then become the government or end up with members in government. That is why they are so closely bound.

My little experience was just to show that even in places where the laws are easily cast aside things are not so cut and dry. Having a gun does not mean you won't get your rights infringed upon. In my opinion that case was not worth dying for even if I was right so I let it go. I could afford to do that but had my situation been one of more necesity on my part I may very well have pressed on and we would have ended up having at it.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by daskakik]



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik

I never said more public security would solve the problem. I'm saying that the wealthy families (elites, bourgeois, PTB, corporations) have found and will always find the way to keep their power. They become the government. That is why they are so closely bound.

My little experience was just to show that even in places where the laws are easily cast aside things are not so cut and dry. Having a gun does not mean you won't get your rights infringed upon. In my opinion that case was not worth dying for even if I was right so I let it go. I could afford to do that but had my situation been one of more necesity on my part I may very well have pressed on and we would have ended up having at it.


This really sounds like you are making my point for me.

I fully agree that the wealthy eventually take over government and wield the power of government against the people.

This is the primary reason I'm so against government!

Humor me for a moment and pretend that more security (either private or public) would solve your problem.

If government held a monopoly on security, it would be FAR easier for the criminal gang to bribe it to do its biding because it only has to pay off ONE source of security.

In a privatized market, the criminal gang would have to bribe numerous security agencies to do its biding. This is much more difficult to maintain control over than corrupting one public agency.

Diversity is better than monopoly - always.

Government is nothing more than a monopoly on force.



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 


I dont get it? He ignores you in the other thread, then starts a totaly new thread just to bash one of your ignored replies, dosent bother telling you about it so you can at least defend yourself, and still ignores your replies.
Cowardice runs rampant on the internet. That fact has deffinately been prooved to me today.

OP you live in an imaginary land full of gum drop rain and candy roads. WAKE UP! You are dilusional at best.

It would seem that your only agenda with this thread (aside from bashing someone who you dont have the decency to let defend themselves) is to promote Anarchy (which will only work in textbooks and computer games) promote decrimilization of marijuana (witch im a little ashamed that you are in the same boat as I) and denounce anyone who dosent agree with your theoritical utopia.

I gont agree with you at all. All i know is government is a vital necessity to any nation that wants a decient future, even though ours needs to be totaly overhauled, which i have said in previous posts.

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by MessOnTheFED!
 


"All i know is government is a vital necessity to any nation that wants a decient future"

No.

Freedom is the vital necessity to any nation that wants a decent future.

Freedom means freedom from government.

It does not mean freedom from voluntary cooperation or voluntary corporations.

Freedom means a free market currency.

Freedom means a free market banking system.

Freedom means private property rights that the government can't take away from you.

Freedom means the ability to do whatever you want, as long as whatever you are doing is not harming another person or damaging their property.

Government is necessarily anti-freedom.



[edit on 3-6-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by wayouttheredude
People in the past that had no big central government as in the wilds of America, automatically began voluntary associations to accomplish the needs of the community. The Sheriff or Chief who was elected by the people or by a council of elders what have you kept the peace and settled disputes.

Fires were everyone's problem so they would volunteer their resources and efforts to support the common good. Roads were built by raising a bond then retiring it with a road toll. The common defense was handled by the local militia.

Freedom is not free but it does not require forced taxation. The founders of these United States had it mostly right. They just could not write into those founding documents the will of the people to not stray from the limited government they envisioned.

Emergencies have been used time and again to increase the power and authority of the state. Eventually after enough emergencies have come and passed the state realized that they liked expansion during times of emergencies and began to manufacture those crisis situations to increase their power.

The excuses used by stateist apologists for their thuggish violence is always the same. That we now need these things that were introduced as emergency temporary measures and that they must extract a tax from the people to pay for these things. The fact is that your income tax goes straight to the federal reserve bank to service the national debt. Services are paid for by service fees and other taxes such as the gas tax, cigarette tax, alcohol tax, and so on and so forth.

Voluntary association is superior in every way to state violence and enforcement. Like an animal that has been caged for too long the American people are now no longer aware of what it was like to really be free. What we accept is a growing corporatist/socialist police state that seeks to take even our most basic rights and freedoms and convert them into privileges that may be regulated and removed from the people at the whim of the state.


Bravo and well said! I couldn't have said it better my friend! The people have no memory of true freedom and instead repeat socialist mantras, platitudes, and propaganda just as they have been programmed by public schools, TV, and media. It makes me ill

if I could boil down what they repeat ad nausea it would be something like; " OMG what will we do without big brother government to take care of our every woe"...Sigh! It's amazing to me some people can tie thier shoes without someone telling them to.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by hawkiye]



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 


I dont get it? He ignores you in the other thread, then starts a totaly new thread just to bash one of your ignored replies, dosent bother telling you about it so you can at least defend yourself, and still ignores your replies.
Cowardice runs rampant on the internet. That fact has deffinately been prooved to me today.

OP you live in an imaginary land full of gum drop rain and candy roads. WAKE UP! You are dilusional at best.

It would seem that your only agenda with this thread (aside from bashing someone who you dont have the decency to let defend themselves) is to promote Anarchy (which will only work in textbooks and computer games) promote decrimilization of marijuana (witch im a little ashamed that you are in the same boat as I) and denounce anyone who dosent agree with your theoritical utopia.

I gont agree with you at all. All i know is government is a vital necessity to any nation that wants a decient future, even though ours needs to be totaly overhauled, which i have said in previous posts.

MessOnTheFED!


Ah so since all your arguments have failed miserably and been refuted by pure logic and reason you resort to attacking the OP... Sigh typical.

The OP explained why he made this thread to focus on something the thread the quote was taken from did not focus on. he was interested in the topic not who he quoted so what!



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 





Lack of security and lack of proper courts? How are they going to help me when I'm walking around in public and someone they paid to do me in starts popping lead into me.


LOL!!! You really think you are safe from that because of government? ROFLMAO!!! Do you have a cop following you around 24/7 LOL?

I always have to laugh in between cursing at the idiotic scenarios people come up with to try and justify government force and coercion. You are more likely to have the government "do you in" then someone else LOL! Unless of course your into your bookie for a couple hundred grand and can't pay.


We could sit here all day and come of with scenarios neither side can prevent the world is a dangerous place and the Idea that government makes it safe is the most ludicrous mythical lie ever perpetrated on humanity. Government has through out history and still does murder more people then any other group or entity on the planet through wars, poisoning the food and water supply, killing the environment etc. etc.! You are watching it before your very eyes with the wars in the ME and the killing of the gulf coast not to mention the many police state brutality news items that come up daily and you still think your safer or better off.... Big Huge Sigh!!!



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 04:03 PM
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Wow! This is a really good discussion.


I can't wait to see what else comes up.



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by daskakik
 





Lack of security and lack of proper courts? How are they going to help me when I'm walking around in public and someone they paid to do me in starts popping lead into me.


LOL!!! You really think you are safe from that because of government? ROFLMAO!!! Do you have a cop following you around 24/7 LOL?

I always have to laugh in between cursing at the idiotic scenarios people come up with to try and justify government force and coercion. You are more likely to have the government "do you in" then someone else LOL! Unless of course your into your bookie for a couple hundred grand and can't pay.


Glad you got a laugh but if you actually read the post you would see that I was refering to someone who actually threatened my life and not some made up scenario.

The OP then implied that if there were adequate security and courts that this would have been an impossibility. Well lets just say that the person saw my actions much like a bookie that is owed money and would easily step outside the law to settle the situation.

No I don't think government will keep me from harms way that was the whole point of the post.



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


WOW! I dont even remember replying to you at all. Its deffinately nice to see that you are standing up for someone else. Only if you could do that in reality.

It appears to me that you and your friends best bet would be to poole up your money and buy a houseboat and go live in international waters.

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


WOW! I dont even remember replying to you at all. Its deffinately nice to see that you are standing up for someone else. Only if you could do that in reality.

It appears to me that you and your friends best bet would be to poole up your money and buy a houseboat and go live in international waters.

MessOnTheFED!

Edit: I was going to delete this double post but i thought it best not to. In case you skimmed through my irst one which would have taken all of 2 minutes to read. Hope it sinks in this second time around.

MessOnTheFED!

[edit on 3-6-2010 by MessOnTheFED!]



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Whenever you find this so called :freedom" from "criminals" that you keep squaking about please do let me know. Ive been looking for a nice vacation spot.

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
In a privatized market, the criminal gang would have to bribe numerous security agencies to do its biding. This is much more difficult to maintain control over than corrupting one public agency.


I see the logic behind this idea but I don't see what these other security agencies would be. Why would they be interested in helping me out. Would I have to pay some "Cosa Nostra" type security for protection.

You said that I was making your point for you and in a way I am because in the end we are still just going to end up paying government or mobsters. They are the same and that is you original point. I just don't see the point in saying one is better than the other.



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik
I see the logic behind this idea but I don't see what these other security agencies would be. Why would they be interested in helping me out. Would I have to pay some "Cosa Nostra" type security for protection.

You said that I was making your point for you and in a way I am because in the end we are still just going to end up paying government or mobsters. They are the same and that is you original point. I just don't see the point in saying one is better than the other.


Ah, but at least you would be paying "Cosa Nostra" protection money voluntarily.

When the State runs the security, they hold a gun to your head.

Under a private system, if you don't want protection, you don't have to buy it. This may be fine for safe areas or for people that like to carry a gun.

When the State offers security services, they come to your home and put a gun to your head, forcing you to pay for it.

Which is a more civilized system?





[edit on 3-6-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Im still waiting for this gun to be put into my head............. Guess they forgot about me. I cant believe you seriously think that people would be able to afford all the things that the government provides if they were offered by private corporations. How much are you guessing would a week of police protection cost? How about new roads? How would we decise who needs to front up the money for them?

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 04:41 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


And another thing. Im pretty sure you know absolutely nothing of LOGIC or REASON. All you do is keep muttering about guns in your face and how the government is evil and so on. If its really that bad for you why dont you just move? Im sure you can find a lawless country to snuggle right into.

MessOnTheFED!




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