The Enduring Crusade.

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posted on Mar, 7 2003 @ 07:49 PM
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There is so much I want to write about, where to begin?

700 years ago history took a new turn, the Crusades were directed by Christians against Muslims, and the mightiest of all the Crusaders were the Knights Templar. Their doings in Palestine, and their strength in Mainland Europe are of less controversy, it is in Scotland you will find the greatest controversy of all. What happend to them?

To set a mood, I want to first bring up a little about what I have found of the Scotts, and their wars with England in late 1200s, early 1300s.

The Stone of Scone is of first interest, for two reasons. First because upon it was written (In celtic? but translated into latin? Possibly always in latin, maybe a scott here will know?
) "If the Destiny prove true, then the Scots are known to have been Kings where'er men find this Stone."

www.saoirsesdemesne.com...

This is interesting, because the Stone was taken by Edward I king of England, its inscription marked off, and placed at the foot of the throne in the Tower of London.

Another translation reads similar except the end is "The kings of Scotland shal rule where ere the stone is." or such, I don't speak lating so I don't know for sure. "The Temple and the Lodge, by Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh"

There is much history involved with King Edward fighting Robert the Bruce, before the Knights Templar were targeted by the church, they fought for Edward, and the Master of England, and the Preceptor of Scotland died in battle for Edward on July 1298, fighting a revolt at Falkirk against Wallace (if Wallace did indeed exist). "The Temple and the Lodge pg 27"

This is odd because the Knights Templar swore never to fight a Secular war. What? Well what was so religious about the fighting in Scotland?

Well one supported theory is that Scotland at the time was still a strongly celtic nation, and Rober the Bruce was not a "real Christian" but belonged to the Celtic Church at the time. This church by today's standards would be considered a varient form of Christianity, but by that time's standards, there was only one Christianity and this form was considered heretical, and used by Edward as propoganda.

Later on I believe I've read that it was in 1306, Robert the Bruce was excommunicated, and could have cared less.

So could the initial Templar involvement have been spurred by a need to prevent the rise of a less than Roman Catholic kingdom? Esepcially one with such a prophecy.

Now in 1306 it would seem the prophecy would be a load of manuer, but in 1307 everything changed.

The Templars themselves now found themselves on the recieving end of the Papacy's wrath, and what French Templars could, packed up their wealth, and sailed away.

"Dungeon Fire and Sword -- John J. Robinson at the moment and The Temple and the Lodge" both go into where did this group of Templars end up?

Well in western england, there is nothing but solid evidence, written in their tombstones, that the Templars found their way to the "heretical" Scotland, now the prophecy of the Stone of Scone could be fulfilled.

One concieved reason for Robert the Bruce's victory over King Edward, was that the Now Heretic Templars had aided him with men, and money. Men once of the Church, now fighting for a man who believed that Spirits could give him aid in questions. 'Men said he fostered on the sly, a spirit that would give reply, to any question that he pleased.' "Barbour, The Bruce pg 113"

So, Scotland is free, big deal, the Stone of Scone is no longer in Scotland, it is in England.

On the side, I've seen but not read a book entitled something like "The Two Reasons Scotland Built the Modern World" or shaped, something about lesser known history. Back to subject.

So how is it that Scotland would govern the actions of England? Freemasonry.

In the same time as Robert the Bruce, Stone Masons of Europe were building the Cathedrals of Christianity. And many found themselves far to the north, in Scotland.

It is evident that Templars, became Stone Masons themselves. Many Templar tombs had been found with Masonic Squares and compasses (note: not in the fassion you see today, but one or the other), in Churches in Argyll, and else where near western Scotland. "The Temple and the Lodge"

So now Templars, were introduced into Masonry, is this where Freemasonry inherits its rituals of the Temple of Solomon? Only two organizations in the world gathered in a place representing King Solomon's Temple. The Knights Templar literally did, building upon and exivating the historical site itself. Where the Dome of the Rock is today. And Freemasonry, which gathers in a metaphorical place that is King Solomon's Temple. "Born in Blood, by John Robinson"

If the Templars did infact merge with Stone Masons, and later became the Freemasons, to whatever degree, that the slight bit of evidence both historically and physically does give. Then the Stone of Scotland's prophecy proves true.

For the stone resided in England, and the last of the Templars, effected by their wars for Scotland, whose churches show profound celtic influence, even those built well into the 1400s, found their way to London.

Freemasonry, powered by the mightiest Empire the Earth had ever seen, spread all over the world, and still resides all over the world. Thanks to London, the throne of that Empire, who carried with it a prophecy that the Scots would rule wherever the stone shall go.

The stone went to London, and London wrapped her cloak around the world.

So the final question in this part of the discussion is...

...what is Masonry doing?

It was born in crusade and in structure, it is the machination of two ideals, building, and crusade. So has it carried a message, even if not a concious one, nor damaging one, around the world. A crusade possibly to lessen the strong grip of the Roman Church from Christian neck's. A crusade to bring the world together? Or is there a much more sinister and concious crusade that not even those who are most publically high in Masonry, understand...

[Edited on 8-3-2003 by Hammerite]




posted on Mar, 8 2003 @ 07:58 PM
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I'm kind of sad that no one has been coming up with any replys to this


This is a very summed up version of about 4 books of history I know, but it's worth discussing
In fact this is why I'm posting here in the first place, the lack of discussion about Masonry, Templars, and the history of the modern world is why I've found myself posting in other things


It's kind of a shame that at a conspiracy site, no one is discussing this "conspiracy" if you really can call it that. More rather it is a left out portion of general history.

So to continue with this line of history I'm now going to go over several points just to add to some data.

First, I urge everyone to look up online (because it is free) the "peasant revolt of 1389", it is a remarkable point in time that is greatly forgotten by history classes around the world.

The man who lead the revolt was "william?" Tyler (I forget his first name off the top of my head) and while Tyler would not be an uncommon surname for a peasant at the time, it is certainly an odd one considering the circumstances.

As "Born in Blood" discusses, the Peasant Revolt saw much destructions of Royal and Knights Hospitaller's property (remember the Knights Hospitaller took over all Knight Templar assets after the Templars were disbanded). Now this could have been a coincidence, if it weren't for the fact that the most sacred of Knights Templar places (still standing at the time simply because they were parts of the Hospitaller wealth, and no one would buy them, circular churches just didn't bode well with the Church) were untouched by the revolt.

It's hard as I myself don't own "Born in Blood" so sadly can not just give quotes, but it is the discussion of how the Knights Templar merged with opperative masonry, to turn it towards a path that didn't involve stone cutting.

It continues to discuss many reasons as to why the Blue Lodge is structured the way it is (To protect the heritic Templars from being sniffed out by Church officials, and to pass down a general agenda the Templars had).

A personal addition from me, is I think it is possible (worth discussing) that the Templars did have a "Vendetta" to finish, against the betraying Church of Rome. Hence why it would establish itself in a closed society "Stone masonry" and permeate it with their ritual, and ideals.

I think though this ended around the time of 1600s, and Masonry transformed yet again, "The Temple and the Lodge" discusses a lot of history concerning Bloodlines, as Jacobite Freemasons wanted to see the Stewarts on the Throne of England (Stewarts were decendants//or maybe just involved with...Robert the Bruce King of Scotland).

Either way, that'll all come at a later date.

My question now is to all of you (feel free to throw out experiences or hear-say) do you think that Freemasonry still has an organized agenda, with specific goals.

Or is it simply an ageless fraternity where the members are taught to live good lives, and be tollerant, and this life style helps to shape our world for the better, though they unconciously are doing it. (I.E. there is no "steps" or "deadlines" for meeting specific "goals" to transform the world)

If need be I'll be finding better quotes to better show you how the Knights Templar changed the mideival world, how they joined with Opperative Masonry to make something more of it, and how Opperative Masonry would evolve into Speculative Masonry (that part really is unknown, it is just known that it occured about 1600, as well as is unsure just to what extent templars permeated Masonry, but there is solid evidence some Templars did indeed join masonry).

And how did Speculative Masonry change the world, and in turn, did that change fulfil the prophecy of the "Stone of Scone"? And consequently, is Masonry still changing the world, or is it just a bunch of old guys, remembering the old days?



posted on Mar, 10 2003 @ 08:35 AM
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The stone of Scone isnt in England anymore, it was given back a few years ago, i think in '97. There was a debate over wither it should be sent back to Scone or placed in Edinburgh castle. Edinburgh won. I've seen it a few times. Theres a bit of controversy about the stone though. it was stolen in the '60's by a group of students as some kind of prank and later returned but some still think the one that was returned was a fake. I vaugely recall some stories about there being a note inside the stone, but i cant remember if that was the fake or the real one.. think it was the fake.
William wallace did exist, by the way!
good post.



posted on Mar, 10 2003 @ 09:08 AM
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do you have any pics of this stone in question? Is there a history of this stone? If so, how did the stone come to be? Was it magically created or created by the minds of people? This is a very intriguing post and I wish to learn more of the events you have described.



posted on Mar, 10 2003 @ 09:35 AM
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to what i do know about america is this `crUSAde`



posted on Mar, 10 2003 @ 12:10 PM
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Very true the stone is back in Scotland and has been for a good few years now, i have seen it myself.

as for Masonry trying to change the world, It was once a Pride thing were one had to belong to a group of some binding, but now its a social movement I do believe thats all, I would like to think more, but I dont see it anymore myself.

No offence Hammerite, but you sure are of the American way of history thinking.



posted on Mar, 10 2003 @ 12:24 PM
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There is a lot of history involved with the stone.
According to legend, it was used as a pillow by jacob in biblical times.



first link i could find with the history:

link

[Edited on 10-3-2003 by kegs]



posted on Mar, 10 2003 @ 12:30 PM
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please tell me if you can see the pic, not sure if i've done it right.



posted on Mar, 10 2003 @ 01:23 PM
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So Many Questions my Head
A bit of stuff on the Stone.

THE STONE OF SCONE A.K.A

JACOBS PILLAR
CORONATION STONE
JACOBS PILLOW
LIATH FAIL

The 152 kg rock popularly knownoutside Scotland as the "Stone of Scone" has joined the other Scottish royal
regalia -- crown, scepter, sword and jewels -- in a closely-guarded museum.
Technically, under British law the Crown still "owns" the Stone -- the assumption apparently being that, after seven centuries, possession is ten tenths of the law.
However, Her Majesty has decided to lend it permanently to her Scottish subjects,
on the understanding that it can be temporarily taken back to London whenever it might be required for future coronations.
The last time the Stone was used was in 1953 for the formal Coronation ceremony of Queen Elizabeth II , who had succeeded to the throne the previous year on the
death of her father the King.
Until recently, the Stone of Jacob (Israel) has sat under the Coronation Chair in Westminster Abbey, in silent testimony to the dual promises made by Almighty
God to the descendants of Abraham.It has remained with the descendants of Israel since the time of Jacob, and the Royal Seed of David have always been crowned upon it.

Legend states that the Stone was taken to Egypt, and later to the Promised Land when the Israelites came out of Egypt. The Stone stayed in Jerusalem until around
586 BC It is certainly possible that the Stone may have been used in the coronation ceremonies of the Irish Kingdom of Dalriada from roughly 400 AD until 850 AD, when Kenneth I, the 36th King of Dalriada, moved his capital of his expanding empire from Ireland to Scone (pronounced "scoon") in what is now Perthshire, Scotland. The Stone was moved several times after that, and used on the remote, western island of Iona, then in Dunadd, in Dunstaffnage and finally in Scone again for the installation of Dalriadic monarchs.
The Stone was last used in a coronation in Scotland in 1292, when John Balliol was proclaimed King. Four years later, in 1296, the English monarch, Edward I
(infamous as the "hammer of the Scots," and nemesis of Scottish national hero (William Wallace) invaded Scotland. Among the booty that Edward's army removed
was the legendary Stone, which the English king apparently regarded as an important symbol of Scottish sovereignty. The present Coronation Throne was made
to house the stone in 1301. According to the treaty of Northampton of 1328, peace was restored between the
warring neighbors, and King Edward III of England promised to return the Stone to its rightful owners forthwith. But somehow the English never got around to
fulfilling their end of the bargain until now.

So could it be the sacred pillow of Jacob and Used by King David,Later taken for safe keeping by the Templars in Scotland(As the stone today seem's to be a fake).Therefore given us a connection to the Freemason's of modern times.











[Edited on 10-3-2003 by The Real Deal]



posted on Mar, 10 2003 @ 04:59 PM
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kegs I know the stone of Scone isn't in England anymore, it was shipped back Nov. 15 1996?

Which is why once finally some discussion was getting under way (This is good
) one of my theories now is to watch for a shift of power from England to Scotland.

You never know, but maybe the next influential Parliment member or whatever will be Scottish....or maybe a Freemason and Scottish


Heh.

I sure wish I remembered that book...."2 secrets of history that tell why the Scotts built the modern world" or something like that.

I'll keep an eye out for it.

29MV29 just look up the stone online, I found sites with pictures too, but keg's pic isn't working because he hasn't uploaded it to a site. Gotta be a URL keg's, not a file path


Now, I personally want to find out more about the Celtic//Pagan issues going on at this time (late 1200s early 1300s) in Scotland. I must say I was surprised to find that there were any issues, and apparently there are.



posted on Mar, 11 2003 @ 12:55 PM
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Your statement about the next prominent British parliamentarian could very well become true due to present circumstances. Blair is under immense pressure because of his stance over Iraq and there have been reports that if he goes to war without a UN mandate his leadership could be under threat.
One of the favourites for his position could well be his Chancellor - Gordon Brown, a Scotsman.

But the government in power now is the Labour Party and this is Brown's party. They are very anti-freemason. They have put in place laws that have been detrimental to freemasonry. Indeed, some have been challenged and over-ruled in the European Court of Human Rights. It is highly unlikely that masonry would prosper under his leadership.

A Conservative government (UK's second party at the moment) would undoubtedly consist of freemasons. A large number of their politicians are members of freemasonry but they have less people of Celtic origin amongst their ranks.

The UK parliament does contain an unusually large number of Scottish born politicians though. Their representation is, without doubt, greater in proportion to the number of people whom they represent. But with devolution the number of Scottish MPs will probably fall due to the fact that Scotland now has it's own parliament and it would be expected that any up and coming politicians would make Edinburgh their main place of work, rather than Westminster.

As for the stone itself? It was a very thorny issue. The Scots looked upon the English as thieves. It was more a case that the English had stolen something belonging to the Scottish heritage rather than a matter of what the stone actually represented or meant. It harked back to the days when the English were at war with the Jacobites - a war which the Scots are proud of. It was one of the many times that they stood up to their more powerful neighbours and returning the stone was more an issue of restoring a piece of tradition than having any masonic conection. Returning the stone was a symbol of recognising Scotlands history as a nation in itself and that is probably why it caused so much consternation between the two countries.



[Edited on 11-3-2003 by Leveller]



posted on Mar, 11 2003 @ 11:19 PM
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Yes, I never meant there IS a masonic connection to the stone. Just that this has been a channel of the stone's prophecy


For instance, the stone made its way to london, so did Masonry become merged with Templars in Scotland and made its way to London. Now that the stone is back, maybe over the course of a hundred or a thousand years we will see a major shift in power again, and this time maybe it won't incorporate Freemasonry or maybe, by some twixt it will.

You say the Labour Party is very anti-masonic, but who knows...maybe things are in for a change


Afterall Masonry didn't take hold in London in a revealed since until about 1600s, 300 years after the Templars were disbanded, and not until 1717 before it would make a world appearance.

And actually the Temple and the Lodge talks about the Jacobites, if indeed they were fighting for the Stewarts? And suggests masonry's formation of a Grand Lodge had more to do with trying to say they have nothing to do with that, than anything else (can't remember if it then goes on to say that Jacobites//Jacobins *I could be confusing the two or are they the same* again permeated masonry), either way, I'm just forwarding a broad spectrum here. So let's keep the drums rolling and narrow some more stuff down



posted on Mar, 13 2003 @ 06:25 PM
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Correct me if i'm wrong.

When the templar's were hunted by Philip the Fair in 1307 the templar fleet escaped where many headed for Scotland,to be given refuge by Robert the Bruce.They
were welcomed by the Rex Deus family's of Scotland ie The Sinclairs.

So did the Templars beliefs form the basis of Freemasonary?

The Templars were made up of 3 classes of members Priests,Knights and serving brothers,where the Brothers were divided into 2 Men at Arms and
Craftsmen.As we know the Templars built some grand buildings including Churches and Cathedrals with the most common craftsmen beign Masons.

So i think that some of the Templar rituals could have found there way into the guilds of Stone Masons and the less formalised Mason associations in England,
providing a link between the two.

TRD



posted on Mar, 13 2003 @ 06:55 PM
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I find it hard to believe that you believe in prophecy and spiritual myth like the Stone Of Scone, yet all conspiracy theory loops to possible mysteries are out of the question to you. Is that not a hypocrisy to your reality threshold???? Just asking.



posted on Mar, 13 2003 @ 08:13 PM
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Conspiracies, such as "The Masons rule the world//or//There is a 34th degree for the Illuminati" things, usually have NO historical, factual, or any form of basis, other than fanciful imaginations.

Some people here are good at digging up some good dirt, but most of the time it's worthless as dirt, and that's why I am skeptical about that.

But when it comes to odd prophecies and such, sometimes (Like the Stone of Scone) there can be found a historical backing to it. I have provided a bit of evidence that shows the Scotts had greatly changed the world, and if by Freemasonry then they greatly changed it through london, which of course was where the Stone of Scone ended up.

The Prophecy spoke that the Scotts would rule the ground where ever the stone was, and so that's why I make this small correlation.

But I by no means think it completely a must, just an interesting thing to talk about and to incorporate a good deal of REAL history.

As far as fate though yes I believe there is fate, but it's hard to explain, I don't think of it as "Destiny" as much as, what happend happend, and your life is what it is today because of what happend, and that "what happend" is fate. If anything was different then your life would be completely different, that is why I feel there is a "fate". But it's not so much as pre-destined, as it is, what happend. Hard to explain but if I had a few pages to write I bet I could get the idea across to you in full


The Real Deal, that's what I think, and "Born in Blood" tries to tie that up really well. That the Templars, rather than fading away as a group, simply turned in their swords for gavels and squares and much of their ritual was handed over as well. Hence why Masonry's ritual is all about Solomon's Temple.

Now though the hard thing to figure out, is did Masonry simply form in it's speculative ways in about 1600s, and the learned members develope the system based off old Templar history. Or was it actually passed down by the Templars themselves?

History and hard evidence would probably suggest both, with maybe less direct Templar influence. But there are things in the past not written down, which gives rise to the fact that the Templars could quite well have passed down their heritage, rituals, and maybe latter goals that would have formed after their persecution, into what would later become Masonry, with the influential beginners of Speculative Masonry being the Sinclares no?


arc

posted on Mar, 14 2003 @ 05:35 AM
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could I recommend two books at this point? I'd be very surprised actually if any of the masons here had not already read them, as they caused a fair amount of controversy.

The Hiram Key
The Second Messiah

written by Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight, both speculative and master masons.

The Hiram Key is a broad oversight of the historical origins of freemasonry, tracing a path from ancient egypt through jesus, the templars and on to modern freemasonry. The Second Messiah gives a more detailed account of the part the Templars played, a believable theory as to the origin of the turin shroud and some good information on the Rex Deus families.

Hammerite you may well find both these books confirm your ideas about templar values and rituals passing on into masonry



posted on Mar, 14 2003 @ 11:29 AM
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Hammerite.
What you say makes sense,I personally think that it was handed down by the Templars with Scotland the chosen place to do this due to earlier connections with Henri st Claire,as he return from the crusades in jeruselem around 1100 after fighting alongside Hughues De Payne the founder of The Knights Templar.Upon his return he named the village of Roslin later changed to Rosslyn in the 1950's which in the scottish gaelic dictionary means KNOWLEDGE,
GENERATIONS.So had the grand plan been set in motion 18yrs before the excavations in Jeruselem.
I have read after the persecution the Templar Order seemed to continue in France underground.A document called The Charter Trasmissionis appears to contain a list of all Templar Grand Masters after the death of Jacques de Molay,so did they continue in complete secrecy until 1804?.
So therefore the Knowledge must have been handed
down or was still being used,the Freemasons are directly from the Templar Order with the modern freemasons not fully understanding the rituals and writings under their noses.



posted on Mar, 14 2003 @ 08:41 PM
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Thanks for the two books. As for the Turin shroud they believe Demolay was layed in it or some such thing? I thought I did hear something about that somewhere.

And then they said "oh no, it was jesus" but really it was just De Molay? Some other Templar. Well anyways...

Good question to ask then Real, is are Masons today mislead purposely about the Templar rituals intertwined? Or do Masons just not recognize them for what they are?


arc

posted on Mar, 14 2003 @ 08:50 PM
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You are correct in what you heard Hammerite - Jacques DeMolay was tortured in a mock crucifixion ceremony and then laid upon the linen whilst his body was producing large amounts of 'morbid fluids'. These reacted with the minerals used to whiten the cloth. A full chemical explanation of this process is given in the Appendix of the Second Messiah



posted on Mar, 15 2003 @ 09:57 AM
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Hammerite,
Maybe they are not being misled on purpose just not guided in the right direction(just some).I have read some of the rituals and masonic books which seem to contain the information if you look hard enough and then research into the right things.These were the possesions of my grandfather(royal arch mason)which i do not wish to disclose for my own reasons.I think today alot of people join to try to benefit from it and are not fully aware of what they are reading,as a lot of studying is involved.
I think also it has been deliberatly hidden and intertwined so the people who join and work there way through the degree's may know but not the ones who are there for the free ride.

[Edited on 15-3-2003 by The Real Deal]





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