Guilty verdict in Obama trial: more questions than answers

Originally posted by DrMattMaddix


Juan McCain was born in Panama on a military base, ergo, on American soil... As is LEGALLY declared in many documents.

Ahem...

New Hampshire resident Fred Hollander, who has filed a suit in U.S. District Court claiming that the Republican candidate is "not a natural born citizen." In an attempt to prove his argument, the 49-year-old computer programmer filed a subpoena last month seeking McCain's birth certificate.

The Department of Homeland Security, which oversees citizenship services, declined to hand over copies of the document, saying the subpoena was improperly served.

www.washingtonpost.com...

There is no record of McCain's birth in the bound birth registers of the Panama Canal Zone Health Department, which are available for public inspection at the National Archives in College Park, Md. Here is a sample page from the August 1936 birth register.

americanpowerblog.blogspot.com...

The birth certificate that has been posted on the internet shows that he was born outside of the Military base at a local hospital that specifically not included in the treaty..

itooktheredpill.files.wordpress.com...

Then there is this ..

The argument is very strong against McCain being regarded a "natural-born citizen" as required by law. He was born in Panama in 1936, at a time when the State Department and the Hay-Bunau Treaty, which granted the U.S. access to the Panama Canal Zone, specifically stated that the Canal Zone was not sovereign U.S. territory.

This birther stuff is fun! I left off the source/link to the last quote just to get into the spirit of birthing...is that a word?

reply to post by K J Gunderson


A very good example of attacking the messenger and not the message.

Look to above posts discussing the Selective Service card and FOIA reports with their discrepancies. Notice that not only did I bother to find links, I summarized highlights so you would not have to read them. But by all means, follow the links and read them.

And while you are doing that, look at that post carefully. Do I say that I think Obama is guilty of conspiracy to commit fraud. No, I do not. I don't even claim Obama is guilty of anything. I just reported on the topic. and submitted opinion on what seemed like interesting points that merit further investigation.

No, I do not have the time nor financial resources to track down all the varied bits of information. Nor do I care to do so if I did. However while you like to make bold statements of character references of people that you haven't met, I submit the following from wikipedia

Manning graduated from The College of New Rochelle with a Bachelor of Arts degree and continued on to Union Theological Seminary in the City of New York where he was awarded a Master of Divinity.[6] Manning also holds a Doctor of Philosophy degree from his own ATLAH Theological Seminary, an unaccredited educational institution

Since the doctorate is from an uncredited educational institution. Lets look at that for a scale of value. Again wikipedia for ease.

Some institutions (for example, some Bible colleges and seminaries) choose not to participate in the accreditation process because they view it as an infringement of their religious, academic, or political freedom.

And from US Dept. of Education

UNACCREDITED INSTITUTIONS

Unaccredited institutions are not reviewed against a set of standards to determine the quality of their education and training. This does not necessarily mean that an unaccredited institution is of poor quality, but earning a degree from an unaccredited institution may create problems for students. Some employers, institutions, and licensing boards only recognize degrees earned from institutions accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. With this in mind, it is recommended that students check with other institutions regarding the transfer of credit policy to determine if that institution would accept the degree and/or credits earned from any institution they plan to enroll in.

So at best, Manning has an honorary doctorate. Some notable people that hold honorary doctorates include Ben Franklin, Maya Angelou, Billy Graham and Hunter S. Thompson. All of whom use(d) the title Dr., frequently and regularly. Thompson's was issued by an unaccredited seminary.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
Obama is a shady shady man with lots of secrets and that is bad.

Manning is a liar who made himself a fake doctor. Let's see if he can find the truth for us.

Keep fooling yourselves into believing you are looking for any kind of TRUTH!

You forgot to call Manning a racist, even though he is black. Using your limited logic, however, he MUST be a racist because he opposed the man that YOU voted for, right?

In fact, anyone that opposes the man YOU voted for is a racist or is full of crap. Isn't that the tired mantra of the party you support?

[edit on 20-5-2010 by sos37]

reply to post by sos37


I can take that one.
No, it's not the "tried mantra".
It's the tired and exceedingly stupid rhetoric of the Obama hater.
You always cite the "all or nothing" argument! Either ALL disagreement with Obama is racist, or NONE of the disagreement with Obama is racist. FACT IS, some of it is racist! If you can't understand that, God help you. If you PRETEND that's not true, well, then you are just another liar!
Clear now?

Originally posted by OldDragger
reply to post by sos37

 

I can take that one.
No, it's not the "tried mantra".
It's the tired and exceedingly stupid rhetoric of the Obama hater.
You always cite the "all or nothing" argument! Either ALL disagreement with Obama is racist, or NONE of the disagreement with Obama is racist. FACT IS, some of it is racist! If you can't understand that, God help you. If you PRETEND that's not true, well, then you are just another liar!
Clear now?

Uh huh. Then how come arguments between those who support Obama and those who don't support Obama always, and I mean ALWAYS boil down to "it's because you're a racist!"?

There is no respect for differing opinions any longer by Republicans OR Democrats, which I'll give you. But the fact remains that we have a black president in office and Democrats and liberals alike DO NOT respect the opinions of those opposing Obama. When those differing opinions make sense, Democrats and liberals never concede, they throw the "it's because you're a racist" argument.

reply to post by sos37


BS. It DOESN't come down to insinuating racism.
That's just Beck, Repub, Tea Party type cliched answer.
Look at ATS! Most here claim that racism doesn't exist! Blacks are the racists!
Whenever I hear this kind of nonsense, my Spidey sense tells me they ARE probably racist! Otherwise, why the BS! Seldom do I hear a rational disagreement with Obama. Usually it's the kind of utter idiocy, oh, I don't know, LIKE IN THIS RIDICULOUS TRIAL! Not policy, it's "he's Kenyan'Muslim/Communist/antichrist and hates America.
not too impressive!

Originally posted by OldDragger
reply to post by sos37

 

BS. It DOESN't come down to insinuating racism.
That's just Beck, Repub, Tea Party type cliched answer.
Look at ATS! Most here claim that racism doesn't exist! Blacks are the racists!

But when you say the above it is not a lib-dem clichéd answer? Sure sounds like one!

Whenever I hear this kind of nonsense, my Spidey sense tells me they ARE probably racist! Otherwise, why the BS! Seldom do I hear a rational disagreement with Obama. Usually it's the kind of utter idiocy, oh, I don't know, LIKE IN THIS RIDICULOUS TRIAL! Not policy, it's "he's Kenyan'Muslim/Communist/antichrist and hates America.
not too impressive!

Back to your Spiderman comic book! What issue are you on?

Originally posted by OldDragger

Whenever I hear this kind of nonsense, my Spidey sense tells me they ARE probably racist! Otherwise, why the BS! Seldom do I hear a rational disagreement with Obama. Usually it's the kind of utter idiocy, oh, I don't know, LIKE IN THIS RIDICULOUS TRIAL!

ATS is full of posts where people have RATIONALLY DISAGREED with Obama. Did you ever grace the Bully Pulpit forum with your astounding presence and actually read the posts there? I don't participate in the discussions there because I tend to get too emotional about the issues I discuss, but I still read what others have to say.

The real problem is for some reason you can't stand for Obama to be wrong about anything when in truth he's wrong about much.

Originally posted by Ahabstar
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

A very good example of attacking the messenger and not the message.

NOPE. You never delivered any message. What damning evidence did you present? What testimony did you relate here? What "truths" about this case did you show me? All you did was defend the MESSENGER. Give me a message and see how that all works out, mmmk?

Look to above posts discussing the Selective Service card and FOIA reports with their discrepancies. Notice that not only did I bother to find links, I summarized highlights so you would not have to read them. But by all means, follow the links and read them.

Is that what this trial was based on? If so, I will be more than happy to look at it all AGAIN.

And while you are doing that, look at that post carefully. Do I say that I think Obama is guilty of conspiracy to commit fraud. No, I do not. I don't even claim Obama is guilty of anything. I just reported on the topic. and submitted opinion on what seemed like interesting points that merit further investigation.

Why would you think an innocent man warranted MORE INVESTIGATION? Sorry but I know you want to pretend you are not anti-Obama so you do not seem like you are just blindly following anyone that opposes him but YOU ARE. If you honestly believed there was nothing to it, you would not think there was need for more investigation. Obviously, you think he is guilty of something and that is the only reason to support further investigation.

Aside from that, the links you provided are trying to prove Obama is a fraud. So you now you no longer endorse the links you just asked me to read for you a paragraph ago?

Make up your mind. Pick a stand. Being wishy washy in order to appear more sincere is kind of sad when you expose it so well.

No, I do not have the time nor financial resources to track down all the varied bits of information. Nor do I care to do so if I did. However while you like to make bold statements of character references of people that you haven't met, I submit the following from wikipedia

Manning graduated from The College of New Rochelle with a Bachelor of Arts degree and continued on to Union Theological Seminary in the City of New York where he was awarded a Master of Divinity.[6] Manning also holds a Doctor of Philosophy degree from his own ATLAH Theological Seminary, an unaccredited educational institution

Since the doctorate is from an uncredited educational institution. Lets look at that for a scale of value. Again wikipedia for ease.

Some institutions (for example, some Bible colleges and seminaries) choose not to participate in the accreditation process because they view it as an infringement of their religious, academic, or political freedom.

And from US Dept. of Education

UNACCREDITED INSTITUTIONS

Unaccredited institutions are not reviewed against a set of standards to determine the quality of their education and training. This does not necessarily mean that an unaccredited institution is of poor quality, but earning a degree from an unaccredited institution may create problems for students. Some employers, institutions, and licensing boards only recognize degrees earned from institutions accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. With this in mind, it is recommended that students check with other institutions regarding the transfer of credit policy to determine if that institution would accept the degree and/or credits earned from any institution they plan to enroll in.

So at best, Manning has an honorary doctorate. Some notable people that hold honorary doctorates include Ben Franklin, Maya Angelou, Billy Graham and Hunter S. Thompson. All of whom use(d) the title Dr., frequently and regularly. Thompson's was issued by an unaccredited seminary.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now THAT is funny. Where do we start?

Did you check to see who opened that school? Who made Manning a Doctor? What his degree is in? These things might help you understand the difference between

a school seeking accreditation

and

a school someone just made up.

Do you really not understand the difference? It says a great deal about you if this is the case and it is certainly what I am reading.

Manning started his own school and completely made up a degree that is not recognized ANYWHERE by ANYONE.

Next, he uses it. Did Franklin give himself his PhD? Did he use it? I am looking but I see nary a reference to the many truths espoused by a Dr. Franklin. Seems he did not lean on that for credibility.

Maya Angelou - is a poet and does not pretend to be a doctor nor does she hold court. Which poem does she claim is more credible than anything about other poets, because she is a DOCTOR???? Please show me. I have met her and she does not ask to be called DOCTOR. Know what fake doctors do ask? Stephen Colbert and Bill Cosby. Next time they convene court, let me know.

Billy Graham - also does not try and convince people anything he says has any weight BECAUSE HE IS A DOCTOR.

Hunter S. Thompson - ditto.

Bad examples. Not one of these people call themselves Doctor. Not one of these people made up a school and a fake degree to give themselves.

The fact that you do not see the difference is pretty scary but how about you get on with the MESSAGE so I have no ammo to shoot the MESSENGER with?

Originally posted by sos37
You forgot to call Manning a racist, even though he is black. Using your limited logic, however, he MUST be a racist because he opposed the man that YOU voted for, right?

WHAT??!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!????!!!???!?!?!

Can you explain yourself?

I never cried racism about anyone here about anything.

I never said anything bad about Manning because of Obama. All my remarks about Manning are due to who Manning is. He is a liar and a fraud. If I point that out, I automatically have to call him racist for opposing Obama as well?

Show me one of my posts that would lead you to say this. Show me anything.

This is not only highly inflammatory but wholly stupid and insulting on every level since it is based on NOTHING I HAVE POSTED.

Feel free to prove me wrong though. I am certain I will not get an apology when you realize you are just pulling this crap from the only good place to pull CRAP from.

In fact, anyone that opposes the man YOU voted for is a racist or is full of crap. Isn't that the tired mantra of the party you support?

I do not and have not ever supported any party and I am certainly not a spokesperson for any group anywhere.

IF YOU WANT TO BITCH ABOUT SOMETHING SOMEONE SAID, GO TAKE IT TO THEM INSTEAD OF TRYING TO RANDOMLY ATTACH IT TO PEOPLE LIKE ME FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN IGNORANCE OR STUPIDITY. THANKS.

Give the guy a break, he isn't just running our country, he has the whole world to think about too.

Originally posted by centurion1211

You mean that we would not be able to find a single person that recalled you ever being in a class, a dorm, a game, nothing at the college you attended?

I went to three and that is exactly what I mean. Can you prove otherwise? Who would recall me, exactly? All the friends I made at the various colleges? I was a local. I had plenty of friends already. I set me schedule. I was in and out and back to my HOME with my FRIENDS.

When paying $300-$1200 a class, I found it hard to justify time making myself memorable to others. I did not attend games. I was in one dorm room once with a kid named Chris something for about 5 minutes while he picked up some '___' before a class we had. Have fun tracking down "Chris that was tripping in Sculpture back in 1994."

I took a "Death and Dying" class once. There was a girl in there that turned out to know my older brother. We were quite friendly and even partnered up for a group project. Let me know what she says when you find her. I just gave you all the information I can recall about her so good luck with that.

If so, then we would have to stop believing anything you said, just like obama.

Wait, that's already happening ...

Cool. You disbelieve me like you do Obama's BC? That says more about me than it does about you. If I were you, I would put that on a shirt, make it your sig and announce it EVERY CHANCE YOU GET.

P.S. Yes I have diplomas, transcripts and a call to school officials will confirm where I have been - just like Obama. Amazing that I would have access to the same levels of fraud as someone who would become president.

[edit on 20-5-2010 by K J Gunderson]

reply to post by K J Gunderson


I guess when you are done discussing either myself or Manning then maybe you will have time to look at what was presented. Until that time, I guess we will have to contend with your campaign of discrediting people as opposed to information.

As for Obama, why was his first order of business to create an executive order that make only records he deemed available to the public to be available? That goes for not just his records but former president's as well, despite whatever protest or reason for them to remain sealed.

Did that seal his birth record and college records, no. But it does prevent them from becoming public by having the means to exchange their non-disclosure in exchange for other items remaining non-disclosed.



So the questions at hand that this so called trial brought out:
Was Obama born in Hawaii? Unknown, but possible.
Diid Obama attend Columbia? Looks like maybe not.
Is Obama's Selective Service records legitimate? Possible, but maybe not.
Would the Selective Service records end his presidency if fake? Yes, provided he had not registered by his 26th birthday which would be August 4, 1987.

But I must thank you, because I happened to find this link which goes over some interesting irregularities on the card. I like the part about the debate on the form itself being a design from Feb/80 or Feb/90 and that the stamp was a USPO instead of a USPS stamp which should have changed in 1971 and certainly been replaced by 1980.

But what is really odd was the FOIA report was printed 9/9/2008, but the request wasn't made until 10/13/2008. hmm. But feel free to compare the differences of FOIA reports with this one



[edit on 20-5-2010 by Ahabstar]

Originally posted by Ahabstar
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

I guess when you are done discussing either myself or Manning then maybe you will have time to look at what was presented.

WHAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED??????

So far the only thing I see is MANNING CLAIMING A GUILTY VERDICT. So, that seems kind of relevant to the discussion. As far as discussing you? Show me one thing I introduced about you. I think you are so wrapped up in your belief in the words of a con-man that you are starting to hallucinate.

Until that time, I guess we will have to contend with your campaign of discrediting people as opposed to information.

Give me some information. What is the hold up? If you want me to address it, you have to provide it.

As for Obama, why was his first order of business to create an executive order that make only records he deemed available to the public to be available?

The same reason Bush and Clinton did it. Do you know why they did that? Did you ask?

That goes for not just his records but former president's as well, despite whatever protest or reason for them to remain sealed.

You are blaming Obama for other presidents sealing their records? Huh?

Did that seal his birth record and college records, no. But it does prevent them from becoming public by having the means to exchange their non-disclosure in exchange for other items remaining non-disclosed.

Not sure what you are talking about. His birth record is all over the internet.

Could you tell me what it is you would do with his college records? I will join your campaign to get them released if you can explain why. You have to tell me we will be fighting all former presidents to unseal their records too though. Fair enough? If not, why not?

 

So the questions at hand that this so called trial brought out:
Was Obama born in Hawaii? Unknown, but possible.

First of all, trials are not to find QUESTIONS but to find answers. I can hardly believe you even said that but hey, thanks.

Second, he was born in Hawaii and nothing Manning presented successfully disputed that FACT. So if it was a trial and there has been a VERDICT, then either he is guilty or not. Those are your two choices. If you think a guilty verdict simply means you get to ask more questions, then either you do not understand what a guilty verdict is or the honorable fake doctor Manning does not. You tell me.

Diid Obama attend Columbia? Looks like maybe not.

Based on what? I am asking you for information. You want me to attack information, not sources and this is all you have? Where is the actual information?

Is Obama's Selective Service records legitimate? Possible, but maybe not.

LOL. This is going to get old. BASED ON WHAT????????

What was the point of this "trial" again? What is the point of having a verdict? Let's just say I am the stupidest, most ignorant person you have ever encountered. Explain all this stuff to me.

Would the Selective Service records end his presidency if fake? Yes, provided he had not registered by his 26th birthday which would be August 4, 1987.

Would finding out he killed a family of 6 in his twenties end the presidency? Yes, provided it was not justifiable homicide. Do you know what supposition is?

I am not sure that you understand what you are saying. Have you even actually followed this "trial?" Where in the verdict does information lead the jury to conclude "If something were to be found to be something, then something would happen?"

I will have to look at your link before I comment on that to be fair. I have to go stop laughing first though so take your time and gather up all that "INFORMATION" you keep telling me to address, k?