Where is everyone ? The mystery remains ...

Who says that they haven't contacted us now or 40 years ago or 1 billion years ago. The govt. could be keeping a lid on the issue, or we are in negotiations with a species or two to allow them access to our planet for help technologically or they came here long ago colonized settled in and eventually became the people we see before us today Humans.

Also a galaxy is a big place and where not even the biggest Adromeda is 10 times bigger than ours and is a massive spiral of a galaxy. Within 100 lightyears of earth solar system Sol, there are apporximately 65,000 stars within range of us (and thats not including the brown dwarfs that may be out their too). So lets say that we have FTL capability, able to warp space or even create wormholes (which I think will eventually be the way to FTL). As a society with this new space technology and ready to go out, where do you go first to explore, 65,000 stars within 100 lightyears is alot of realestate. You use telescopes orbital or or moon based to pick the most viable stars that may support our type of life (which means the type of star we have in our solar system. Then you try to use better resolution to see if their are planets around those stars and where around them. You may get a list that shows possibly 100 stars that not only is in the same spectral class as ours, but have planets that are in the goldilocks zone for life (even though if you have a sufficient large enough gas giant/brown dwarf, it could put out enough heat to have a bunch of moons that could be habitable. Which I believe that many planets that will be habitable will be moons of gas giants/brown dwarfs.). Once you have your lists and such your exploration ship goes out via the FTL technology and takes a look and may or may not find habitable planets in the star system, just ice balls or mud balls or planets that are on high elliptical orbits that make it habitable only a few times in it's long year etc. etc.. Then after that your people don't go back and look over the old data on the other 64,900 stars that where already dinged as not viable, they push out further to 200 lightyears and more.

What I'm pointing out is this isn't star trek, they won't know whats on every damn planet or around every star within their view. But just like Star Trek in some ways we are looking for planets like earths. They never go to a planet that has a chlorine atmosphere where life is abundant and actually their could be intelligent life. Or a water world under ice that has intelligent life but they haven't gotten to space yet, etc. etc.. The aliens just like us may be looking for worlds that are suitable for them (stars not so bright, smaller worlds, etc. ). And they may overlook us via telescopes and say that spectral class of star isn't to our liking and won't support a planet or system that our people would or could colonize. So its truly by luck by most calculations that another species can or will contact another species. The best chance of meeting another species would be if we where located in a stellar cluster, stars not lightyears aways but 80 to 100 AU away from each other. With at minimum 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone, you don't look at each one you look for ones that you and your scientists think will support you (because as we are ethnocentric to our point of view toward life, another race may be also until it meets another species that is intelligent).

Originally posted by masonicon
reply to post by tauristercus

 

So the Real Roswell Crash that happen 3 Years before Enrico Fermi created Fermi Paradox, are allows Majestic 12 and MIB to Perfectly Conceals the existence of the Extraterrestrial, so this makes Fermi Paradox to Happens

The Fermi Paradox isn't so much about 'alleged' reports of crashed ufo's here on Earth ... though if one was to be found and authenticated as such, then that would be an answer to the Paradox.

Instead, the Paradox is simply an observation that given the age of the galaxy (something around 15 billion years compared to around 4 billion years for life on Earth), that if any advanced extraterrestrial civilizations had evolved any time in the past, that if they had the capability and the will, that they could have colonized the ENTIRE galaxy, including Earth, long, long ago.

The fact that we don't see any evidence of ANY kind of colonization, radio signals, nothing whatsoever ... is the central heart of the Paradox.

The galaxy has had more than enough time BEFORE humans arrived for thousands, possibly millions, of other species to have evolved technological civilizations. And as has been pointed out, all it would take is for just ONE of them to want to colonize the galaxy and by now we'd be neck deep in alien neighbours !

But that hasn't happened ... WHY NOT ??

I think the answer is a combo of 6 and 8. Either they destroy themselves or it's just not worth traveling thousands of years to go see a monkey or a slime on another planet.

The Universe is IMMENSE, there is more than enough "good stuff" to see in a relatively "local" area of under 10 light years that you wouldn't have to go much further.

The best chance for contact is by some sort of transmission, be it radio or other wavelenghts. We just have to be listening to the right channels at the right time in the right direction. It's still a relative needle in a haystack even that way.

reply to post by tauristercus


The resources necessary to colonize a galaxy would be gigantic, one planet couldn't come up with more resources to mount massive migrations maybe once or twice before they deplete their own planetary resources. And if you only send a "Mayflower" ship to a new planet, it will take them a long time to max out that planet unless they breed like rabbits. It would take a long time to colonize even a small galaxy and I don't think most worlds want to do that, they would rather develop the planet they are on.

Unless there is faster than light travel and communications, I don't see interstellar civilizations flourishing much beyond their own "local pond". The distances involved just don't make it work without faster than light travel and communication.

this is too long it hurts my face,

to put it simply as an answer an astronomer said at a lunch with the queen or something that "Maybe they dont want to answer the phone"

also their probably already here in lagrange points so I dont think their not out there, their just not answering. Would you? considering there are billions of possible earths, imagine there being billions of annoying signals being sent out. After awhile it would get old to you to, just like that head on commercial.

Originally posted by hoghead cheese
Who says that they haven't contacted us now or 40 years ago or 1 billion years ago. The govt. could be keeping a lid on the issue, or we are in negotiations with a species or two to allow them access to our planet for help technologically or they came here long ago colonized settled in and eventually became the people we see before us today Humans.

Yes, the above is a possibility but once again, we have to understand that IF another species CAN or HAS visited Earth (now or in the past), that immediately dictates that they have the capability to cross interstellar space. Having such a technological advantage immediately gives them the capability to embark on a colonization program. I would tend to assume that EVERY species sooner or later with space faring technology will extend its civilizations reach to other stars and become expansionist. You can bet that we humans will be claiming other stars/planets as soon as we have the means and the willpower to do so.

So ... logic dictates that any ET that makes it to Earth in all likelihood is NOT a newbie and has had space travel technology for a long time ... therefore they will have made an impact within the galaxy that one would expect to be detectable.


With regards to the galaxy being an immensely huge place with billions of stars/planets, yes you're right that any given species would more than certainly 'cherry pick' stars/planets that are of particular interest to themselves and disregard the rest.

But as has been demonstrated, such a civilization using technology that only allows them to travel thru space at only a max of 10 or 20 percent that of light, will STILL be able to colonize EVERY suitable planet within the galaxy in under 50 million years. Compared to the age of the galaxy, on that timescale, such colonization would effectively be instantaneous.

So no matter how you look at it, it's almost inconceivable that the entire galaxy has NOT been colonized long before life began to appear on Earth ... assuming that there is at least ONE civilization out there prepared to do so.

[edit on 11/5/10 by tauristercus]

Yes, all of kinds of aliens have either visited/are visiting us, or have been communicating with us for millenniums. Unfortunately for us, alien life forms don't talk to ordinary citizens, only to governments. When they crash their spacecraft, they only do so where the military of the country they are visiting can clean-up the wreckage quickly before any common folk can find it. In a hundred and fifty years of photography, they have managed to escaped being filmed in any kind of detail that proves their existence. They live among us, yet they morph into beings that look and react to OUR environment as if it was there own. In short, every alien that has ever visited the earth falls in the same class as our governments do: elitists.
Just sayin...

edit to add PS...I'm still reading the OP, just responding to the blind faithers...

[edit on 11-5-2010 by odd1out]

Originally posted by pavil
I think the answer is a combo of 6 and 8. Either they destroy themselves or it's just not worth traveling thousands of years to go see a monkey or a slime on another planet.

Sure, thats a good possibility and if only a handful of extraterrestrial civilizations had evolved during the galaxies lifespan, then we could seriously consider that some self-destructed and the rest 'stayed at home'.
But the current scientific thinking is that given even the slightest chance, that life WILL evolve and based on this kind of thinking, estimates have been produced that during the life of the galaxy (50 billion years), that thousands and potentially millions of technological civilizations would have evolved. In that case, it's difficult to comprehend how EVERY one of them could have self-destructed or decided against expansionism. As mentioned over and over, all it would take is for just ONE out of the potential millions of civilizations to take it upon themselves to get out there in the galaxy and spread out ... and the consequence would be that the galaxy would be one heck of a busy, noisy and crowded place. But last time we looked, it was deathly silent out there and empty as far as we cared to look.

reply to post by hoghead cheese


Carl Sagen said when some one ask'ed him about alien life and what might it look/act like, and care about? He said in his opinion it would almost certainly be "unimaginaly weird". Alien life may be all around us, but in a state or dimension out side of our sense's. Like we can't naturaly detect radio waves. Or we can see them with our eye's,but our brain's not able to process the information in a way we can understand.

By the way, out standing post!

Isn't it possible, amongst your list of possibilities, that this planet has already been colonized?
I'm not claiming that it is, but it does seem to answer a lot of questions if so.

Originally posted by hoghead cheese
Who says that they haven't contacted us now or 40 years ago or 1 billion years ago. ).

Great stuff Tauristercus. I think I need a bigger brain.

I'm with hoghead cheese on this one.

Really, who says what's what? Maybe every single planet in our galaxy has life on it right now. Who knows? Our telescopes aren't that good.

It all seems to come down to 'radio waves'. We're sending but not receiving. Perhaps we're not dialed into the right channel.

About colonization. Sending a few Space Cadets in Rockets on various intergalactic adventures (like every second episode of The Twilight Zone or The Outer Limits) - that's okay. That's reasonable.

But the 'overpopulated planet scenerio' where you not only have to colonize another planet but you also have to move millions of inhabitants off your own troubled world (to that newly colonized world)...well, that seems problematic. Sending a few Flying Saucers here and there - fine. But how would you move millions and millions???

Anyway, I'm rambling on. Great topic.

Maybe they're all out there - and we simply just don't know. By 'we' I mean: not the government.

I totally agree with you that sooner or later, whether by choice or necessity, that we as a species absolutely will expand out into the galaxy. We've shown throughout our species history that we're an expansionist species and that given the opportunity to do so, then we definitely will.

We aren't going to last that long. We will kill ourselves off before we can infect other worlds with our poisonous presence. Other civilizations haven't made their presence known to us for good reason. Why would they want to? We have nothing to offer them. We barely even have our humanity left to offer. We certainly can't offer peace. There's no profit in peace. We have nothing they want. UFO sightings? Humans are a spectator sport. They are taking bets on how we will kill each other.

Originally posted by xEphon
Isn't it possible, amongst your list of possibilities, that this planet has already been colonized?
I'm not claiming that it is, but it does seem to answer a lot of questions if so.

Absolutely ... prior colonization of Earth is definitely within the realms of possibility.

However, it still fails to answer the main question of why, except for us humans, there's absolutely ZERO sign or indication of any other extraterrestrial civilizations out there.
Because if the capability to colonize Earth was available to at least one civilization out there, it would be difficult to explain why they didn't apparently colonize many more planets. One would tend to assume that a civilization would continue expanding and colonizing to the maximum of its abilities and as a result of this activity, leave traces and evidence of its existence for us to detect.

Originally posted by univac500

But the 'overpopulated planet scenerio' where you not only have to colonize another planet but you also have to move millions of inhabitants off your own troubled world (to that newly colonized world)...well, that seems problematic. Sending a few Flying Saucers here and there - fine. But how would you move millions and millions???

I think that the sort of 'galactic colonization' we're discussing here isn't necessarily the result of a disaster happening on the 'home' world and needing to ship of your entire population to another planet.
Rather, we're considering a gradual colonization or expansionism similar to how Europeans colonized America and Australia ... not because they had to but because these new frontiers were available and the technology was available to make it happen.

With galactic colonization or expansionism, we're talking about the possible scenario where a civilization has achieved space flight technology and has a similar innate drive to that of us humans, i.e to expand, conquer and assimilate new frontiers as soon as our level of technology permits such expansionism.
So, an extraterrestrial civilization sends out a handful of ships with colonists to the nearest suitable planets. These colonists take say 400 or 500 years to build up their society/civilization to the point where they in turn can send out their own handful of ships with colonists to the next closest and suitable planet.
Even at such slow rates of colonization, its been determined that this original civilization (and its daughter civilizations) could potentially colonize every suitable planet within the galaxy in 50 million years or less.
And as mentioned, 50 million years may seem like a heck of a long time but compared to the age of the galaxy itself, its just a blink of the eye.

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by xEphon
Isn't it possible, amongst your list of possibilities, that this planet has already been colonized?
I'm not claiming that it is, but it does seem to answer a lot of questions if so.

Absolutely ... prior colonization of Earth is definitely within the realms of possibility.

However, it still fails to answer the main question of why, except for us humans, there's absolutely ZERO sign or indication of any other extraterrestrial civilizations out there.
Because if the capability to colonize Earth was available to at least one civilization out there, it would be difficult to explain why they didn't apparently colonize many more planets. One would tend to assume that a civilization would continue expanding and colonizing to the maximum of its abilities and as a result of this activity, leave traces and evidence of its existence for us to detect.

Well, we're assuming that the method of colonizing the universe is similar to how we have colonized the earth. Perhaps it's more efficent or more "natural" to the colonizing environment, to plant seeds of your basic lifeform and let the environment through evolution create the most suitable biological form. And, like a good gardener of life, you watch over your garden to make sure no insects come around to destroy the fragile plants until they ripen.
Sorry for the bad analogy ... I'm just thinking out loud.

[edit on 11-5-2010 by xEphon]

Originally posted by xEphon

Well, we're assuming that the method of colonizating the universe is similar to how we have colonized the earth. Perhaps it's more efficent and more "natural" to the colonizing environment, to plant seeds of your basic lifeform and let the environment through evolution create the most suitable biological form. And, like a good gardener of life, you watch over your garden to make sure no insects come around to destroy the fragile plants until they ripen.
Sorry for the bad analogy ... I'm just thinking out loud.

Not a bad analogy at all and again, definitely within the realms of possibility.

But still, this sidesteps the point that depending on how long ago this "seeding program" took place could have a direct bearing on the number of extraterrestrial civilizations out there.
If this took place billions of years ago and many planets were "seeded", then potentially every one of these planets (some would fail, but not all) could conceivably have evolved a technological civilization that would eventually have ventured into space ... and possibly embarked on colonization of the galaxy. Which then puts many more species out there alongside the original seeding specie ... so where are they all ?

In case anyones interested, my personal slant on the Fermi Paradox is to explain the reason the galaxy out there gives all indications of being desolate and absolutely quiet is purely and simply because not a single emerging civilization EVER lasted long enough to make their presence felt in the galaxy before they hit their own version of Singularity.

Once their society begins to become industrial/technological as we did in the Industrial Revolution, they find that the rate of technological progress very quickly becomes a headlong rush, becoming exponential and drags them into a Singularity beyond their control. Based on the phenomenal amount of scientific/technological progress that we humans have made in the incredibly short space of 200 hundred years, our own Singularity may be "just around the corner", so to speak.

So Singularity may be the defining event for all emerging technological civilizations that happens to them BEFORE they're able to attempt colonization.

reply to post by tauristercus


Perhaps we think to much. Perhaps the answer is as simple as why we discover new species on this planet we occupy like so many Cockroaches nearly every day.

I'd think we could easily be overlooked in a place as large as this Galaxy let alone the Universe. Like the bottoms of trenches below our oceans and the caves that are yet to be explored, life is still everywhere for us to discover.

What if there is no "Paradox" other than we are as a single grain of sand on an endless beach and nobody has noticed us yet?

We send out our first radio and television broadcasts just a few years ago and we are surprised the Galaxy has not fallen all over themselves to send out the Welcome Wagon?

I read some communication concept that uses modulation of zero-point field, to achieve FTL communications. If ET aliens use that technique, then we would not hear them with SETI. And if their ships use hyperspace for FTL travel, then we would not see them in their voyages.

Very nice thread Tauristecus,

I believe that we may have been visited in the past, but for whatever reason they abandoned us, probably because our governments screwed them over.

I mean, can we really expect TPTB to treat them nicely?

g