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Germany, IMF, ECB call for sped-up action on Greek crisis as more negative signals emerge

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posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by Dermo
Fair enough.. Don't blame the Greeks, blame the ones who don't pay any of their taxes, blames the ones who suck up every social welfare service they can and blame the ones in power who lied..


You do understand that there is not enough jobs for everyone, lol.

On issue the anglo american empire should pay for this as they are the ones who in london and new york effectively wrecked the system.




posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 07:26 AM
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reply to post by Retrovertigo
 


Definitely.. The only thing is that people here are so weird about the EU overall, jumping into a new currency while also allowing a new supranational government to control all those fiscal policies would have been too much for people back then.. Maybe also now unless its through necessity.

As far as I know, the same German professors who mounted their big court cases against Joining the EURO are the ones blocking the bailout..

One has to wonder.. do these men know what they are doing.. Even though I understand completely where they are coming from



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 07:34 AM
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reply to post by Retrovertigo
 


'Definitely, Dermo...

Setting the EU up without a centrally controlled fiscal policy was a major blunder...Having a 16 country union with 16 disparate fiscal policies was always going to have problems at some stage, all it takes is one nation with "loose" (for want of a better word) fiscal policies and the whole house catches fire... '

now we are getting to bottom of things..

this was not allowed...the EU is being built with stealth...the people dont know that a super state is being built...(not many do) if the EU would have said they need total financial control many more people would have woken up to whats going on...so they said that the countries will keep this control and that thats proof of their sovereignty...the german court for their constitutional rights has to pass the lisbon treaty and if it would have said ANYWHERE that brussels would get control of german finances it would not have allowed it to have been agreed to..and constitutional lawyers in germany would have taken to government to court had they asigned it...

thats the WHOLE problem here....lies and corruption within the EU..and thats another reason why the greek people should not have to pay...



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 07:35 AM
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Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by Retrovertigo
 


Definitely.. The only thing is that people here are so weird about the EU overall, jumping into a new currency while also allowing a new supranational government to control all those fiscal policies would have been too much for people back then.. Maybe also now unless its through necessity.

As far as I know, the same German professors who mounted their big court cases against Joining the EURO are the ones blocking the bailout..

One has to wonder.. do these men know what they are doing.. Even though I understand completely where they are coming from






they know exactly what they are doing...and they are totally correct in doing it..



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 07:45 AM
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Originally posted by Retrovertigo

Originally posted by alienesque
hi both of you..


so what should the people have done?...everyone they voted for carried on with the scam...and when they voted for another party they turned out to be just as bad..

so..my question is...what should the people have done?


Its clear Greece has the amongst the highest levels of corruptions at all levels of its public service, from government down...

Surely the judiciary or some sort of anti-corruption authority should be in place to investigate government and public sector corruption ? I know in Australia government deception like this would not stand...They'd be lynched and/or prosecuted...

If not, people should have demanded anti-corruption authorities be set up and people prosecuted...Surely other political parties must have known what was going on, and surely they must have made this public and surely the public should have listened...

But nope, as I said, the public were perfectly happy to keep on receiving that middle class welfare and other benefits whilst the budget deficits kept on piling up...

Why would they complain when they directly benefited from the deception ?

Its clear Greece has a deeply ingrained culture of corruption and living beyond its means thru its entire society...

That needs to change fast, or the Greek people are seriously going to play with pain...


thats the problem with the whole debate here...the greeks are being cast as lazy good for nothings..when in reality the opposite is the case...the cost of living in greece in INCREDIBLY high compared to wages and many people have to have 2 or 3 jobs just to get by...

this media push to paint the greeks as lazy serves one purpose..it weakens the support of others for their cause...and THATS why its happening..

the greeks are complaining...they are doing it now...they want a change...now...they have woken up to whats gone on all these years and they are being attacked for doing just that..

it seems they cant win....

one more thing...we heard till recently that the only people who are complaining in greece are a few extremists...this was an attempt to alienate those who are protesting..thankfully it didnt work..

did you know the EU spends approx 3 billion euros each year on 'propaganda'?..this is the sort things this money goes to..to subdue 'trouble makers' as the fascists in brussels see them..

check out some talks by Marta Andreasen....check out what happened to her...she is the ex chief accountant of the EU...till she saw what was happening..tried to change it and was sacked 'for lack of loyalty to the EU'...sound familiar?

see is explaining whats going on in the EU..and its not nice..if you ask me this whole problem right now is an attempt to cause a huge problem so they can then push through EU wide financial control...





[edit on 30-4-2010 by alienesque]



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by alienesque
thats the WHOLE problem here....lies and corruption within the EU..and thats another reason why the greek people should not have to pay...


Lies and corruption within the EU does not excuse the lies and corruption of successive Greek governments, the Greek people allowing said lies and corruption to flourish and the Greek peoples fondness for lapping up middle class welfare even tho it meant mounting budget deficits...

These things pre-dated Greece joining the EU, so its not unreasonable to suggest that Greece' troubles may not have been discovered for much longer had it not joined the EU...

If this had happened, Greece may well have been a basket case with no help from external sources...And you can well imagine what that scenario would look like for the Greek people...

Greece is lucky it joined the EU as it now has a "knight in shining armor" coming to its rescue...If only its people would shut up and accept the terms attached to the help...

Whether you and I like it or not, Greece must adopt these measures if it is to survive, there is NO sensible, viable counter argument to that...

Edit to add - Look...You keep editing your posts well after you've made them which is making it nigh on impossible for me to address the points you make...At this point I won't be debating this with you further, as we are not going to see eye to eye on this and are only going to engage in circular arguments...

[edit on 30/4/2010 by Retrovertigo]



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by Retrovertigo

Originally posted by alienesque
thats the WHOLE problem here....lies and corruption within the EU..and thats another reason why the greek people should not have to pay...


Lies and corruption within the EU does not excuse the lies and corruption of successive Greek governments, the Greek people allowing said lies and corruption to flourish and the Greek peoples fondness for lapping up middle class welfare even tho it meant mounting budget deficits...

These things pre-dated Greece joining the EU, so its not unreasonable to suggest that Greece' troubles may not have been discovered for much longer had it not joined the EU...

If this had happened, Greece may well have been a basket case with no help from external sources...And you can well imagine what that scenario would look like for the Greek people...

Greece is lucky it joined the EU as it now has a "knight in shining armor" coming to its rescue...If only its people would shut up and accept the terms attached to the help...

Whether you and I like it or not, Greece must adopt these measures if it is to survive, there is NO sensible, viable counter argument to that...

Edit to add - Look...You keep editing your posts well after you've made them which is making it nigh on impossible for me to address the points you make...At this point I won't be debating this with you further, as we are not going to see eye to eye on this and are only going to engage in circular arguments...

[edit on 30/4/2010 by Retrovertigo]


hi..sorry..i didnt mean to get things confused..


we dont agree...but thanks for the discussion....maybe im wrong..



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by alienesque
see is explaining whats going on in the EU..and its not nice..if you ask me this whole problem right now is an attempt to cause a huge problem so they can then push through EU wide financial control...
[edit on 30-4-2010 by alienesque]


In that case there's two choices....

1) A central body controls fiscal policy for all EU nations...Or

2) Break the EU up

The EU can't remain in place without 1...The events of the last 2 or 3 years have proven that...

And if 2 happens, the economic carnage for many of the former EU states will be enormous...

Like it or not, the EU is here to stay unless the member states are prepared to suffer economic Armageddon should they choose to split...



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by alienesque
[hi..sorry..i didnt mean to get things confused..


we dont agree...but thanks for the discussion....maybe im wrong..


Nah, that's cool
You're right, looks like we have to agree to disagree



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by Retrovertigo

Originally posted by alienesque
see is explaining whats going on in the EU..and its not nice..if you ask me this whole problem right now is an attempt to cause a huge problem so they can then push through EU wide financial control...
[edit on 30-4-2010 by alienesque]


In that case there's two choices....

1) A central body controls fiscal policy for all EU nations...Or

2) Break the EU up

The EU can't remain in place without 1...The events of the last 2 or 3 years have proven that...

And if 2 happens, the economic carnage for many of the former EU states will be enormous...

Like it or not, the EU is here to stay unless the member states are prepared to suffer economic Armageddon should they choose to split...


i agree...and i say it should split...economic armageddon is better than having a united states of europe forced on us by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats....THAT is hell....

the countries coped just fine before the EU and they will do again...

your right though...this will be used to push total control...which the german constitution doesnt allow...so something will have to budge....it would be very ironic indeed if the german constitution saved europe from being enslaved dont you think?



by the way...this could also be the reason why so much pressure is being put on germany at the moment..to weaken the peoples will to stick up for their constitution...its a form of terrorism..and its the same thing the EU did to ireland to get them to pass the lisbon treaty..



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 08:37 AM
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I can't speak for the Greek people but here in Spain corruption goes from the very bottom to the very top - people and governments want their cake and to eat it.

At a local level, townhalls take back handers, people work for cash to avoid paying taxes, people have work done and don't pay for it, etc, etc. It is VERY difficult to trust anyone here.

Higher up the chain you have properties, with full licenses, now being demolished because they're illegal. People are still stuck paying the mortgage even after their home is demolished. Even property that had a bank guarantee - the banks aren't honouring the guarantees

As I said - corruption everywhere in many ways - politicians, lawyers, utility companies, people on the street. Other EU countries were prepared to turn a blind a eye when Spain was on the up and the property and tourists markets were booming.

I'm assuming the corruption is pretty much the same in Greece. It's a huge mess and I have no idea how to begin putting it right and I'm sure the majority of Greeks don't either. I work, pay taxes, social security and my bills but corruption is all around.

I'm British but moved to Spain around 6 years ago and believe me I am really still amazed at the corruption that is blatent all around me! When I tell friends/family back in the UK about things that happen here, I'm sure they think I'm making it up because no way would those things happen in Britain.

Even our phone company owes us money but we're told by our lawyer that it will cost more, in legal fees, to get the €500 back. About 2 years ago they cut the phone off even though the bill was paid, we called to ask why and they said we owed €200 but couldn't say for what. We paid it. Phone was on for a couple of weeks and then off again. Called again and had to pay more to get it back on. Same thing happened again which is when we saw a lawyer - took all our bills and receipts plus receipts for the extra payments (no bills for those payments ever arrived). She faxed everything to the phone company and asked what the payments were for - cost us €100 euros for her to do that. She never got a reply. We haven't been cut off since but have never had our money back or credited.

That's just one example of an 'official' company. I could share many more tales that we've experienced. It's not just us either - many other friends have many similar tales. We're seriously considering moving back to Britain because we either have to accept the corruption and live with it or leave. We're lucky we have a choice - the Spanish (and Greeks) don't.

In my round about way I'm trying to say that it's easy to blame the average Greek person but believe me they probably really have no way to deal with the corruption. Admittedly, they shouldn't be working for cash but when 'official' companies can just steal €500 how long do you think people will do the right thing? There are people local to where I live that are willing to work for €6.00 per day! Seriously, do you think they'd work for that if there was any other way? People locally are becoming desperate for any work they can get. Break-ins at houses are increasing too - wonder why? It's not right to break-in, steal, avoid tax, etc, but people learn what they live and they're just copying those higher up the food chain. It's all just a huge mess and I doubt Greece is much different! Very sad really and worse to see people blaming the man in the street for it. I'm sure there are many that just intended to rip off the system from the start and cream what they could but not all and not even the majority. The 'average' person is now just trying to survive and I don't see how they could have avoided any of this.

[edit on 30-4-2010 by Maya00a]



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by andy1033
You do understand that there is not enough jobs for everyone, lol.

On issue the anglo american empire should pay for this as they are the ones who in london and new york effectively wrecked the system.


Seriously? Not enough Jobs? Where could you possibly have gotten that idea? lol

But the fact still remains that massive amounts of people in Greece were scamming paying tax..
Taking ridiculous pensions..
Retiring years early as standard..
All based on the pretense of cheap credit for government borrowings and one big lie in order to get into the EURO and get this credit..

I understand that they took a serious knock in regards income from holidayers but if they hadn't gone too Socialist, they would have been able to weather it better.. Their level of Socialism is unsustainable in regards their efficiency and productivity..

And yes, I do agree and think all the major financial institutions in the UK and US should be sued for the damage their speculation has caused... But is it going to happen?


Originally posted by alienesque
they know exactly what they are doing...and they are totally correct in doing it..


Really?

What about the hundreds and hundreds of billions of German EURO's that have been invested already into Greece that these men will destroy..

Thats what I mean.. These men are not correct in what they are doing.. they are being short sighted and overly nationalist in regards their reason..

Either way Germany may have to fork out hundreds of Billions.. There is however, only one way that it will get most of it back.. And thats with a Greek bailout.

And also, seeing as the rest of the EUROZONE are forking out an equal share per capita to help Greece, if Germany keeps stalling on its share and the system collapses, then welcome to a Europe that hates Germany once again.. How long until that becomes widespread in politics and policy?



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by Dermo

Either way Germany may have to fork out hundreds of Billions.. There is however, only one way that it will get most of it back.. And thats with a Greek bailout.

And also, seeing as the rest of the EUROZONE are forking out an equal share per capita to help Greece, if Germany keeps stalling on its share and the system collapses, then welcome to a Europe that hates Germany once again.. How long until that becomes widespread in politics and policy?


But don't forget Portugal and Spain were also downgraded this week - how much can they contribute to bailing out Greece? Probably not very much, if anything! Germany is pretty much having to shoulder the lot, from what I can gather, but if they agree to bail out Greece then how long before Portugal and Spain ask for the same? Then what? The whole situation is a really big mess and I can't see any easy way that this is going to be resolved.

Personally I think it's all a plan to bring in a central fiscal authority to control the finances of all the Euro countries. 'They' can now tell everyone how the current formula doesn't work and we have to have a central authority. If people think there is no other option then they might not like it but they'll accept it. It's a step further into Europe becoming one nation.

As for the Greek people:-


Greeks may also be shifting money out of the country in the face of higher taxes and more austerity measures. Deposits in Greek banks fell for a third month in March, leading to a 4.5 percent drop in the first quarter. That coincided with a fourth monthly increase in deposits held in Cyprus by local branches of Greek banks on the island.


Bloomberg.com

You see the wealthier Greeks are moving their money away from Greece but the average Greek isn't in that position. Most really are just earning enough to live day to day.



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by Maya00a
 


I understand the issue with PIGS and the bailout.. I'd like to point out though..

1.. Its not just Germany bailing out Greece, all EUROZONE members lend their fair share.. Its only the German politicians who are bringing it up because local elections are coming up.

2.. Portugal and Spain are nowhere near as problematic as Greece. So what they got downgraded.. They only got downgraded because of the Greek problem and its damage to the EURO which in return has damaged their forcasted economic outlook..

3.. Whats the alternative? Crash half the world economy? Bring the whole system down? Start again? With what?


Originally posted by alienesque
i agree...and i say it should split...economic armageddon is better than having a united states of europe forced on us by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats....THAT is hell....


Alienesque's view above seems to be to crash the entire system in order to bring down the EU.. They obviously don't seem to realize the consequences of such an action.

Just because you want to see the world burn instead of living under a United Europe, doesn't mean that hundreds and hundreds of Millions of people in Europe feel the same... Obviously you don't have the patience to watch the quick democratization of the EU and would rather complain about than actively try and influence it though an interest in the politics..

Im not the biggest overall EU fan but facts are facts and if the EUROZONE goes down, there's gonna be serious pain all across the world. Germany included.. So it may not be a good idea wishing for a type of anarchy you can't comprehend.


Originally posted by Maya00a
Personally I think it's all a plan to bring in a central fiscal authority to control the finances of all the Euro countries.


I have been saying this all along also.. The way everything is being played out is almost like the politicians are going to allow the system to teeter on the brink for a while in a very public manner before coming to the rescue with a Unified fiscal policy..

We can only wait and see..

[edit on 30/4/10 by Dermo]



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