From Heaven to Earth?

Jesus existed as the same time as God, I guess because they are the same being...

He was at the beginning of creation, and helped in the creation of the universe. I guess he helped himself? I don't know...

Anyways, my question is this: Since Jesus was a being in heaven, wherever that is, how did he get from there to Mary's uterus? Did he become a sperm, and swim into Mary's egg? Did an Angel artificially inseminate sperm Jesus into Mary's egg like we can do today?

Just wondering how Jesus transitioned from one being to another like that and if he lost all his memory of living in heaven with God....er himself. I mean, when he was a baby, did he know he was also the creator of the universe?

Originally posted by Hydroman


Just wondering how Jesus transitioned from one being to another like that and if he lost all his memory of living in heaven with God....er himself. I mean, when he was a baby, did he know he was also the creator of the universe?

Frankly, this question has always been the subject of some very deep theological argument.
There was general agreement that Christ should be understood as genuinely human, simultaneously with being genuinely God.
I think the modern consensus would probably be that Jesus would need NOT to be conscious of the divine connection, in order to remain fully human.

Otherwise we might be heading in the direction of the Monophysite heresy, in which the consciousness of Jesus rather gets lost in the consciousness of God. (a very rough and ready summary)

[edit on 8-4-2010 by DISRAELI]

Jesus is not God and he can never be God. Many believe he's the son of God or a reincarnation of God. But that can not be. Because is forever and God can not get human women pregnant in that way. Of course there have been many miracle births in the bible and quran. John the Baptist and Samuel were born as miracles.

Great topic Hydroman, I don't think we as humans with our current understanding of physics/chemistry/biology can fully wrap our heads around the concept. I think first we'd need to define what a soul is and how it can parallel its existence with the body. If you believe the soul is separated from the body upon death, is it that far of a stretch to say the soul enters the body upon conception? I believe the answer to the question lies in the phrase "conceived by the Holy Spirit". This is the transporting mechanism by which Christ entered Mary. Less literal biology, more etherial physics. If you told someone 20 years ago they could get internet without a cable, would you not get some funny looks?

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Jesus is not God and he can never be God. Many believe he's the son of God or a reincarnation of God. But that can not be. Because is forever and God can not get human women pregnant in that way. Of course there have been many miracle births in the bible and quran. John the Baptist and Samuel were born as miracles.

Really? It was always my belief that God could do whatever the hell he wanted to do, whenever and however he wanted.

Must be talking about a different God.

To answer the question though, you need to think of God as not being an actual being, but a presence that is in all things and jesus being the human embodiment of this spirit. The holy trinity.

God, the father = Creator of all things
God the son = The human embidiment of God
God the holy spirit = The spirit of God that is in all things, which transcends all things.

Although, as an athiest, I'm enclined to be sarcastic and say none of the above, because none of it is real in the first place.

Or it was aliens and artificial insemination.

You can take your pick of answers above.

reply to post by nik1halo


Um..? Did you forget about Elijah? en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


Nope, I didn't and I stick to what I said. If you believe in God as desribed in the bible, the omnipotent, omnicient, omnipresent God, then he can do ANYTHING . You said he cannot do something, therefore I argue that if he truely is the one true God, then he can do anything.

Sure, he can create the universe in 6 days, but get a human wonan pregnant? Impossible!

[edit for spellnig]

[edit on 8-4-2010 by nik1halo]

reply to post by nik1halo

Sure, he can create the universe in 6 days, but get a human wonan pregnant? Impossible!

Perhaps it needs to be said like this. God is the Creator.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by nik1halo

 

Sure, he can create the universe in 6 days, but get a human wonan pregnant? Impossible!

Perhaps it needs to be said like this. God is the Creator.

Maybe, but in that case, surely creating one human life, embodying His own spirit from the womb of a chaste girl should be relatively easy?

Originally posted by nik1halo
Sure, he can create the universe in 6 days, but get a human wonan pregnant? Impossible!

lol I thought the same, if he can create a universe and add life to it then clicking his fingers or merely just thinking it to make mary preggers is not exactly a difficult for his mightyness.

I do have to ask though, was Mary asked for permission to be the bearer of the son of God or did God just do it without her permission because then it brings up questions about God defying free will of his creations which is the most important thing he supposedly wants his creations to have ?

Originally posted by Discotech

I do have to ask though, was Mary asked for permission to be the bearer of the son of God or did God just do it without her permission because then it brings up questions about God defying free will of his creations which is the most important thing he supposedly wants his creations to have ?

I think the usual answer would be that "let it be to me according to your word" was the decision of free-will acceptance.

Go read the Holy Quran. In there, it states: And Allah said " Be " and Mary was impregnated with Jesus. Jesus is fatherless as he has no Human father. I don't know where you come up with " Jesus " has been around since the beginning along with the Omnipotent Allah? That's impossible as Jesus was merely a prophet and a human being as well. lol, Satan existed before Jesus.

First came the Angels and Satan was one of them. When asked to bow before Man ( merely a mold of clay of what was to come ) Satan refused because he thought he was " better " than us because he was created from Fire and we were -- at the time -- merely molded from clay. I'm not saying we were created from clay as the Holy Quran details how we were created. I'm just saying we were first a mold of clay. And Allah did breath his Spirit into us; which does make logical sense as how else could we possibly exist if he didn't do that?

Also, Humans do not have " free will " we have " free choice "; and it is limited, as Allah hath power over all things and can control anything in his Universe.

I don't really understand your logic at all. You think Allah has the ability to not only create the Universe and all that is within it; but also has ability to create Human beings but you question whether or not he can or cannot create life through Immaculate Conception?

Anyway, I'm dead-tired right now and my brains not running 100%. I'll post more from the Holy Quran later.

Originally posted by Hydroman
Jesus existed as the same time as God, I guess because they are the same being...

He was at the beginning of creation, and helped in the creation of the universe. I guess he helped himself? I don't know...

Anyways, my question is this: Since Jesus was a being in heaven, wherever that is, how did he get from there to Mary's uterus? Did he become a sperm, and swim into Mary's egg? Did an Angel artificially inseminate sperm Jesus into Mary's egg like we can do today?

Just wondering how Jesus transitioned from one being to another like that and if he lost all his memory of living in heaven with God....er himself. I mean, when he was a baby, did he know he was also the creator of the universe?

I would assume that when the Angel Gabriel approached Mary to let her know she was going to have the LAMB, he was awaring her of the transmigration of the CHRIST and he isnt GOD he is the SON of the CREATOR. 3 parts FATHER - SON - HOLY GHOST NOT SAME BUT SPAWNED FROM SAME CREATOR so one can understand how many get the TRINITY MIXED UP.



[edit on 4/8/10 by Ophiuchus 13]

Originally posted by Illuminati_K1D
Also, Humans do not have " free will " we have " free choice "; and it is limited, as Allah hath power over all things and can control anything in his Universe.

There is a difference between free choice and free will? They are both one & the same unless you want to be anal and toy with semantics. And if it is indeed limited then it is not free choice at all

The name Jesus;
Most all authorities concur in saying that the name Jesus is, at best a Greek form of the Savior’s Hebrew Name, which they state in the contracted forms of Yahoshua, Yashua, or Yehshua: The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 7, p.970; the Standard Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 478; Strongs Exhaustive Concordance – p.37 of the Greek Dictionary, entry2424, says Iesous is of the Hebrew origin from entry 3091, p.48 of the Hebrew Dictionary, which says Yehoshua.
All these sources claim that Jesus means “Jehovah is Savior” If that is true, the Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. VII, p.87: JEHOVAH – A MISPRONUNCIATION (introduced be Christian theologians, but almost entirely disregarded by the Jews) OF THE HEBREW ‘YHWH”…THIS PRONUNCIATION IS GRAMMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE; it arose through ‘ADONAY’ (the LORD) being SUBSTITUTED with one exception wherever YHWH occurs in the liturgical books. ‘JEHOVAH’ is generally held to be the invention of Pope Leo X’s confessor, Peter Galatin. The Jerome Commentary, p.50, Section 12: The oft heard Jehovah has resulted from the MISREADING of the Name in the pointed Hebrew text; THEREFORE NO JUSTIFICATION EXISTS FOR ITS USE. Adonay, or Adonai, the name used to produce the form Jehovah, corresponds to the English word ‘LORD’, is Adonis a variant spelling of the same word ‘LORD’, is defined in Brandon’s ‘Dictionary of Comparative Religions’ as “Originally Syrian or Phoenician vegetation fertility god, whose Greek title probably derived from the Semitic title ‘ADON’ (LORD), or ‘ADONI’ (my LORD)”.” Then follows almost half a page of pagan history of Adonis (the Lord, Jehovah) including an account of his death and resurrection from the underworld, and the subsequent mourning and rituals of Lent and Easter ‘Ishtar’. Adonis (the LORD JEHOVAH) was a very popular idol among the PHOENICIANS, Greeks, Romans, and others, and his barbaric escapades can be found recorded in most any book of Mythology.
Therefore if that is true, we’ve already established that ‘Jehovah’ is false, and is the name of demons (idols); so Jesus would mean ‘ADONIS’ or ‘BAAL’ is SAVIOUR! [Additionally there are shocking implications of the name ‘Jehovah’ by changing the first part of the sacred Name Jeh and coupling the suffix “hovah” No. 1943 Stongs Hebrew Dictionary has the meaning of “ruin” mischief.” It is another form of No. 1942, havah, which is translated “calamity, iniquity, mischief, mischievous (thing), naughtiness. Noisome, perverse thing, substance, very wicked.” Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius says of No. 1943, hovah: “ruin, disaster.” From this we can see the folly of calling the Creator of the universe the One we worship Jehovah. For in calling upon this hybrid name we are actually beseeching a mighty one whose name carries the meaning, “The One Who creates ruin, creates mischief, creates calamity, creates iniquity, creates naughtiness, creates perverse things, and creates very wickedness’.”] There’s not even any equivalent of the letter “J” in the Hebrew alphabet, which means that, were the Saviors Name Jesus, He wouldn’t have been able to pronounce His own Name! The apostle Saul (Paul) said that the voice from heaven spoke to him “in the HEBREW tongue...I am YHWHHOSHUA whom thou persecutest.” (Acts 26:14-15). The Hebrew tongue was absolutely unfamiliar with the name Jesus and the letter “J”, and could not have possibly said them.
Now in regards to your supposition The Creator is like light and the best way to understand HIM, HIS SON and the HOLY SPIRIT, is shown by His symbol the rain bow. To our eyes we see white light but in truth there are many colors.

reply to post by Illuminati_K1D


Can I just point out that I think the OP was asking the question from the point of view of the Christian faith, not the Muslim.

I understand where you're coming from, but you must realise that the Christian faith classes Jesus as the son of God and as one with God, whereas Islam classes his as simply a prophet and saviour during the end of times.

Therefore it is illogical to use muslim ideals to answer the OPs question, when he is questioning Christian ideals. To do so is simply preaching and trying to implement your ideals on another and also confuses the entire matter.

It's not about religion, its about truth.

Originally posted by nik1halo
God, the father = Creator of all things
God the son = The human embidiment of God
God the holy spirit = The spirit of God that is in all things, which transcends all things.

Nope, I didn't and I stick to what I said. If you believe in God as desribed in the bible, the omnipotent, omnicient, omnipresent God, then he can do ANYTHING . You said he cannot do something, therefore I argue that if he truely is the one true God, then he can do anything.

Maybe, but in that case, surely creating one human life, embodying His own spirit from the womb of a chaste girl should be relatively easy?

I believe you're right on point here, well said.

[edit on 8-4-2010 by saint4God]