A fundamentalist Christians view on Masonry

reply to post by RuneSpider


Yup, true true.. imo, you cannot attach a blanket meaning to any kind of symbol, because someone else might think differently. Masonic symbols mean certain things to Masons but only through our own perspective. If someone else wants it to symbolize a Devil, go for it.. it, in their perspective, now symbolizes evil. But that doesn't change the symbol for everyone.

reply to post by Rockpuck


to add to your comment mr. Rockpuck lol I think that symbols have been misused many times in history. Look at the swastika and how it was perverted as a head-figure symbol into some idealistic (evil) regime. i don't anyone anymore, except for the few, will be able to look at the Swastika and think 'oh yea, that's Hindu of course", but rather immediately identify it with the Nazi regime. The cross is much older than the Christian faith and the use of Baphomet as mentioned before is misused as well. Sometimes the symbols used in Freemasonry are misused as well.

The main thing is, when it comes to masonic symbols, is that just as the fraternity is...it is highly subjective in nature. Of course, we teach that there is somewhat of a moral objective reason at the top layer to set a foundation of at least explaining these symbols, but i believe that every man can come to a different conclusion to the symbol that they see and it would be perfectly o.k.

Some believe that the symbols used in lodge where used for a way of memorizing the lectures and act as visual cues when in lodge because early masons where, for the most part, illiterate. Some believe that the symbols are used for a spiritual/esoteric reason that inhibit or activate the soul. Some just plainly believe in the symbols being what they represent and teached to them in the degrees only. They are all true because it is to the perception of the mason who perceives them-so.

reply to post by Zeus2573

Originally posted by Zeus2573
This Christian here knows all about God Almighty. IF your intentions with this post, although I'm not sure, is to teach me a thing or two about God, then you just might find yourself winding up being the student. Don't forget why/how you ended up on this thread in the first place my friend.

Hmmmn… well… I never meant to imply you don’t know God or that I want to teach you anything. You said you know all about God and that’s good enough for me. While I’m sure you didn’t mean that- like it sounds on the face of it- I think I still get your meaning. If I somehow gave the impression that I was callin’ myself “talking-down to you”, let me assure you at NO time was that my intention. Sure I’m cocky, but I am not on here ego-trippin', thinking I must mercifully enlighten the lesser minds of ATS to save them from being dumb. Matta’ fack, I’d bet my goals are really the same as yours. I simply want to shine some-
-LIGHT-
into those truisms that may have been obscured by the din of misinformation, misunderstanding and the god of this world. I do THAT to hopefully lead others to Christ. This is the root in all I do and I’m sure you wouldn’t begrudge me that.

What my “blade” statement was intended to mean was that regardless of the vantage point, this conversation is going to circle back upon itself inevitably. None of anything else in that post was ever intended to be information to you. I was making general statements for the benefit of the participants other than you and those looking on.

Maybe you took my tone wrong. Maybe I chose my words poorly. Either way I respect you as a Christian out here in this digital wasteland -and that’s a welcomed thing.

Moreover Zeus, I value your support on this tread and would appreciate your input. If you are sure about pulling back, while I couldn’t say I understand your reasons- especially after you’ve seen my heart in this matter,
I would have no choice but to accept it, miss it and continue toward the truth alone.

Where there is no conflict, there should be no hard feelings. Don’t let this cause you to eject yourself from this forum. But if you must go, do it for the right reasons. I will be waiting. Peace be unto you brother & friend.

Lastly, to all who have stopped by to share and add to this debate- thank you for your input. You have all presented yourselves as gentlemen and scholars.
G7 Out

[edit on 13-4-2010 by Gary7MediaTerrorist]

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist


so I am left a bit curious. After all this discussion, do you still think it's even remotely possible that we as masons are unknowingly worshiping some other God than you are?

Did this thread just come to an abrupt close long before it should have??

I thought things were just getting started.

Oh naw it ain't ova yet. It IS just getting started!

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

 

so I am left a bit curious. After all this discussion, do you still think it's even remotely possible that we as masons are unknowingly worshiping some other God than you are?

Hate to be this brief but I'm on the run. But yea, I still do. This discussion has been good but we have only scratched the surface. And I for one will keep on digging.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

 

After all this discussion, do you still think it's even remotely possible that we as masons are unknowingly worshiping some other God than you are?

But yea, I still do.

How is that even possible? How can I call God, 'God', and someone say that it is not God?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

 

After all this discussion, do you still think it's even remotely possible that we as masons are unknowingly worshiping some other God than you are?

But yea, I still do.

How is that even possible? How can I call God, 'God', and someone say that it is not God?

Well the short answer first-

God defines Himself. His perfect and eternal holy Word claims this to be true. I trust God’s Word to tell me lots of things and one of them, in fact the most important, is who God is. No matter what some other man may wish to call god, I will always know that unless he’s talking about the one called Jesus of Nazareth, no matter who he is, he ain’t talkin’ ‘bout nothin’ to do with the real “God”.

So in essence, we have again began examining the familiar theme of this thread, “who is God?”. Why do you suppose this is? I would offer because it is central to the discussion and has not been examined in sufficient enough depth to put the matter finally to rest.
Thus, this is one thing we must do.

To try to put a sharper point on the subject this time, from the evidence I have, the God of the Hebrews and Christians is the only creator. Various experiences, research of not only the scriptures & many assorted faiths and belief systems, but also an eye toward current events- stellar and terrestrial- as a whole, combined with inner witness, collides in my inner man to clearly confirm God’s identity.
In other words, I know in my heart, from the environment and His Word that Jesus is God.
A long answer is forthcoming.

Now to hit somewhere in between:
First of all, nothing said yet here has been sufficient to convince you of YOUR erroneous views- no? Alright then. If you have not been convinced by anything yet said here, why do I have to be captivated, bound and befuddled by being shown the lack in MY erroneous views? No doubt, you and several of your colleagues have raised good points-

…but points nonetheless that can be logically deconstructed- given sufficient time, participation and attention.

Again, not to diminish our thread thus far-- and as I said in a post above, as far as this mediaterrorist is concerned, this ain’t nothin’ but a muffin’ and we got a lotta' butta’ ta go…

…but come now, AugustusMasonicus— No conclusions of any kind have been presented, tested and then finally accepted or rejected. One of us is right. One ain’t. Nothing about this discussion has yet risen to the level of anything significantly more than a whetting the appetite for food for thought. Wouldn’t you say?
So what are you talking about?
G7 Out

[edit on 14-4-2010 by Gary7MediaTerrorist]

in relation to trying to figure out who God is....."a rose is a rose by any other name". I think that God is the same thing as Allah, the Christian God, and so forth, we just give it/him/her a different name and make it/him/her appeal to our religion, but it is all "God" is it not? They all believe in a supreme being that is higher than themself. We just use the substitute of G.A.O.T.U to be a name place for everyone's God because they are the same it is just the humans who make it/him/her different....

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist


I think it is quite obvious that different people of different faiths have different views of God. This is even the case within the same umbrella religions such as Christianity, which compose different denominations. A good example of this is John Wesley (an Arminian) saying to George Whitefield (a Calvinist), "Your God is my Devil".

Does that mean that, to Methodists, Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists are closet satanists? According to Wesley, that would appear to be the case. But it's not really the case at all; it's just that the viewpoint of God's characteristics are different between the Methodist and the Calvinist. And so it is outside of Christianity, as well as within it. As was mentioned in the liner notes to Jethro Tull's 1971 album "Aqualung", man has in many instances created a god in his own image.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist


I guess I am not at all hung up on what God needs to be called. I don't think he give a rats butt what you call him, only that you call him. And I am not at all sure I have met anyone who I think is absolutely 100% right when it comes to religion, so I have to think that maybe we as humans are too caught up in the stupid game of "my religion is right and yours is wrong" when in fact there is a much better chance that all who believe in a creator are correct.

The Bible is a book written by man. It provides many lessons to guide us in our daily lives. But since it was written by man and not God himself, I don't think it should be used as the end all to any idea or discussion. It is always open to interpretation. And if that is the case, then who gets to say their God is better or even different than any other?

I heard a joke that is appropriate here. A Christian dies and goes to heaven. St. Peter starts to show him around, there are many doors with wonderful thing inside them. All of the sudden, St. Peter get near a closed door. He tiptoes by the door and motions for the Christian to follow but he holds his finger to his lips as to say shhhh. When they get by the door, St. Peter starts to resume the tour as if nothing happened. The Christian asked, what was that all about? St. Peter said, that where the Baptists are, they think they are the only ones here.

It's a joke, but also a good representation of my beliefs. As long as you go through life doing the best you can to be a good person and help others as often as possible, there will be a place for you in heaven. And yes, I believe it's just that simple.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

God defines Himself.

The first definition of God, in Judea/Christian text is simply as follows: "I am who I am"...

His perfect and eternal holy Word claims this to be true.

I've never seen "God's Word" .. I've seen MEN write down their interpretation of events, conversations from generations ago, and compile them into a .. man made.. book. I've seen the traditions, established by Men, under religions, created by Men. I've seen personal accounts, and I've seen personal claims.. made by Men. I'm yet to see a burning Bush tell me anything..

God is what it is.. simple as that.. no one is meant to understand it, however through our traditions, cultures and beliefs we can express our inner knowing.. that there is in fact a God.. but we are yet to accept we are of such insignificance in the entire scheme of things to be able to detail God precisely.. if we could, we would be God's ourselves, no? ALL religions, their texts, their institutions.. these are all made by men. The interaction I believe we get from God, is the pull to better understand it.. some call that the ultimate quest of our seemingly chaotic life. In Masonry we simply call it the quest for Light, for Truth.. You cannot find true spiritual progress if you confine yourself to your own view of religion.. because you only expand upon the religion it's self.. once you expand upon the spiritual matters, you will come to understand that no one God is right or wrong, it's all One God.. people around the World simply have different ways of expressing their feelings.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
…but come now, AugustusMasonicus— No conclusions of any kind have been presented, tested and then finally accepted or rejected. One of us is right. One ain’t.

And here is where I disagree with you. No one needs to be wrong. God is God. If you believe that God is the Creator of all then your God is the same as my God as far as my opinion is concerned.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
And here is where I disagree with you. No one needs to be wrong. God is God. If you believe that God is the Creator of all then your God is the same as my God as far as my opinion is concerned.

Fair enough, but that causes me to question you as such: From the following statements you made, do you expect me to believe that you actually DO believe in the same God I do?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Modern Christianity derives from a pagan empire and a council of bishops overseen by a pagan emperor. It is, to use the phrase employed earlier, a 'mish-mash' of preceding beliefs and holy days. Hence the reason you celebrate the rebirth of your savior the same time pagans celebrated their fertility holiday. You celebrate the birth of your savior on a day that fell within the Roman Saturnalia, a week long event of revelry.
The divinity of Christ was settled not by God himself, but by a group of men whose leader was not even a Christian. Prior to this time it was not universal belief among Christians that Jesus was divine nor did everyone agree where the 'Kingdom of Heaven' was located, either here on Earth or in the afterlife.
Many of the miracles ascribed to Christ were also credited to others. E.G., Vespasian, the first century Roman Emperor, was credited with curing a blind man prior to the Gospel of John being written.

Because these- by no stretch- could ever be confused with the statements of one who believes in Jesus as creator. Thus I must disagre with you sir. Yes, this time, someone does have to be wrong. You can’t believe both of these statements.
So AugustusMasonicus, the obvious enough question is simply:
Do you believe in the God I do, or don’t you?

[edit on 14-4-2010 by Gary7MediaTerrorist]

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist


this is just about to get juicy.

Gary, was Jesus the son of God?

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
Well yea man. But any good blade cuts both ways.

Hi, Stompk. We missed you here.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
So AugustusMasonicus, the obvious enough question is simply:
Do you believe in the God I do, or don’t you?

I believe in a God who created everything. If someone chooses to call God Allah, Yaweh, Jesus or whatever their particular religion demands then to me it is the same God.

If you are trying to get me to state that Jesus is God then it will not happen. My statements about the founding of Christianity are not a basis to dispute my belief in a creator. I do not care what you call God, as long as you call God.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
Well yea man. But any good blade cuts both ways.

Hi, Stompk. We missed you here.

I doubt it, but anything is possible. Definitely not the same style.
wait and see.

Fair enough...
but wait- out of one side of your mouth you say:

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I believe in a God who created everything. If someone chooses to call God Allah, Yaweh, Jesus or whatever their particular religion demands then to me it is the same God.

Then out of the other you say:

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
If you are trying to get me to state that Jesus is God then it will not happen.

Though I admit I would love to hear you say, “Jesus is God”, I am in no way attempting to get you to say anything. I am only attempting to get a straight answer.

How can you expect a posture that in essence, contradicts itself, to convince a rational individual of anything?

Granted, you stated that you DO believe in a creator...
But really- let’s check the logic: If I say to you, “Jesus is God”, then for you that's The Creator. Right? Cool.

That being said, you proclaim that you will not say “Jesus is God”. Yet and still God is Allah, Yahweh and Jesus too.

This whirling-Dervish of logic is the “light” Masons cherish? Please. That's not light. That's glare.

Yet again we are returning to one of the 2 or 3 patterns previously seen. Again, we Whirl right on back to it. And again I say, There is, yea-- can only be, one God. And He is not-- , nay nor can be, ANYTHING ANYBODY makes up and decides to worship.

This is why I dropped the Cain and Able story plot in the first place. One brother was wrong because he came at God the way he wanted to instead of the way God demands to be approached and was dissed for it. The other brother came the way God had instructed him to, and was accepted by God.

Again, to be clear on this-- just cuz Joe Blow says so don’t make it so. Sure the guy may intend to mean the same creative being- as I do, yet the fact remains that to God-- passing over Jesus in the quest for God, only to stop at a head of lettuce-- will never be in the true light of the creator. I'm sorry. Lettuce is not, nor ever can be creator. Even if the farmer-in-the-dell says it is.

The well-known Genesis narrative's theme clearly illustrates that God and He alone chooses how He is to be called, worshipped and known of men. Your good intentions when wrought beyond the bounds of Jesus will only serve to pave the road to Hell.

God’s Word is the ultimate authority on God and it states that God is Jesus. Now if you care to, we may explore why this is so fundamental to my knowledge of God. But to expect me to think anything claimed by men to mean the creator in fact does—even to the creator Himself, is an error of profound dimensions.

Thus, your answer, as presented, is not a satisfactory response. Your logic is not only lacking but cyclical. What's more any evidence that God accepts any name any one slaps on Him is woefully absent.

So sorry old chap. Please play again...

"Do you believe Jesus is God (but won’t tell anyone listening) or don’t you?"

Oh, and what’s a Stompk?
G7 Out

[edit on 14-4-2010 by Gary7MediaTerrorist]