A fundamentalist Christians view on Masonry

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
...Christianity is not any kind of "mish-mash. Many faiths ARE though. In fact, most non-Christian (and even some so-called "Chrisitian" ones) will become a blur of various beliefs all the more so in coming days.

Modern Christianity derives from a pagan empire and a council of bishops overseen by a pagan emperor. It is, to use the phrase employed earlier, a 'mish-mash' of preceding beliefs and holy days. Hence the reason you celebrate the rebirth of your savior the same time pagans celebrated their fertility holiday. You celebrate the birth of your savior on a day that fell within the Roman Saturnalia, a week long event of revelry.

The divinity of Christ was settled not by God himself, but by a group of men whose leader was not even a Christian. Prior to this time it was not universal belief among Christians that Jesus was divine nor did everyone agree where the 'Kingdom of Heaven' was located, either here on Earth or in the afterlife.

Many of the miracles ascribed to Christ were also credited to others. E.G., Vespasian, the first century Roman Emperor, was credited with curing a blind man prior to the Gospel of John being written.

To think that Christianity arose uninfluenced by preceding and contemporary beliefs is rather historically short-sighted.








[edit on 10-4-2010 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Modern Christianity derives from a pagan empire and a council of bishops overseen by a pagan emperor.

The divinity of Christ was settled not by God himself, but by a group of men whose leader was not even a Christian. Prior to this time it was not universal belief among Christians that Jesus was divine

[edit on 10-4-2010 by AugustusMasonicus]

The belief in the divinity of Christ was well established in the church long before the Nicene Council.
The function of the Council was to decide that one particular kind of statement about Christ (i.e. the Arian teaching) was not compatible with that understanding.

I don't, personally, believe that Constantine had anything to do with the chosen wording of the Council. I think the church leaders just flattered him by allowing him to be the spokesman, and look statesmanlike.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
The belief in the divinity of Christ was well established in the church long before the Nicene Council.
The function of the Council was to decide that one particular kind of statement about Christ (i.e. the Arian teaching) was not compatible with that understanding.

Please re-read what I posted. I never stated that belief in the divinity of Chirst was not established prior to the Council of Nicea. I stated that the divinity of Chirst was settled at the Council of Nicea, which in fact it was. There was, however, no unanimous consenus among Christians on how to view Jesus in relation to God before the Council adopted this measure.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


More on that note to note that not Just Christianity but a lot of Religions including Judaism, took many original stories to explain their reason for being here and where they are going. For instance, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh after losing his friend Enkidu ( who was an innocent and holy figure that was sacrificed to atone for the sins of another) travels the land in search of immortality. He comes across a man by the name of Ziusudra who was the captain of an Ark who carried his family, pairs of animals, seeds, etc.. because the gods where angry and instigated a flood in which Ziusudra was at sea for 7 days and then released a raven not find land. in doing so, he lands upon mount Nisar, safely.

Also to add that the creation of man in the Epic of Gilgamesh is explained as man being created from a pinch of clay from the Earth. The man is good in nature until he is seduced by a woman to eat bread and drink beer to make him fully human and able to sin. After doing so he is unable to listen to the voice of the birds and nature and is forced to live in a city There is also the concept of the trinity within the Epic noted by a deity in three forms as well. It seems that there is just too much of a coincidence that most of the new religions (because they really are compared to the old myths and stories) are not influenced or have some kind of integration of long old stories that people adored before them.

The thing that people need to remember here is that in freemasonry, the majority of the people who participate in it have nothing to do with the supposed darker schemes. Only the very highest of positions in the Freemasons reveals any of the big picture plans, the rest are unwitting sheep just like the rest of us.

reply to post by Noxaran


obvious troll is obvious....
2nd line

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
Now back to God… and network dude’s question. What we think of God means nothing. At least nothing that has any bearings on what He is, or chooses to do. Just like my art can’t justifiably complain to me if it doesn’t care for the stroke of its eyes.

See network dude, My God has a name. Actually, many. But dig, while you guys are willing to call Him by any name anybody from "Adam" to the "Cat in the Hat" laid on Him, I only use the names He gave Himself. The key here is that all the names God gave Himself refer to one, particular, entity. Not our man-made crowd of candidates.

While I do in time, intend to expound on my statements hereafter, I’m getting a bit ahead of myself and my time is slipping. Yet I did want to let network dude and some of you others know what’s up with my God.

And just for the record His names are: Jehovah, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost. 3 in 1, 1 in 3. Many other names He has, but you know who I mean.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by Gary7MediaTerrorist]

OK, we have a slight disagreement. I think what we think of God means everything. He obviously doesn't need any of us to stoke his ego, or pat his back, he already knows how good he is. But we, need to know who he is to us. Personally. Because in the end, that guy who is pretending to be a person of strong religious conviction, while he sleeps around with wives in the church, has to have that talk with God one day. One on one. But I like your analogy of art. Art has many different meanings to many different people, but it's beauty is universal.

And I just call him God. When I asked him if that was OK, he said yea.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by network dude]

Ok definition time.
There were many interesting but erroneous things said in this thread so far that need correcting and while I will try to address most of the larger ones in future posts, this reply is not aimed at any of them
--but the biggest.
The most pervasive confusion yet (one that touches the very heart of so many of your comments) misstates a simple, foundational truth and really needs to be correct before it gets placed on our examining table. When we mention something specific and important (that is not a belief or opinion), we need to be in agreement about the definition. If we aren’t, even simple meanings can become complex misunderstandings. Not because of viewpoint but because of syntax. Thus we must pause at this juncture to insure that what we are actually referring to is what we intend to be referring to. Case and point?
Christians are not Catholic.
That title (not the “Catholic” one —I mean their other title) you and most in “the world” loves to use to describe Catholicism, is, oddly enough, in the Bible I read, about as far from what they call themselves as I told you I was from Catholicism itself.
Neither do I call her the “Great Mother” or “Mother Church”. But I DO call Catholicism a “her”, because the Bible refers to her as female. And actually even a mother too. (I’ll bet some smarty-pants just caught what I said but don’t quite get it. …yea.) The Catholic system IS mentioned in the bible. But I bet everybody here already knows all about that. And where it is too. Right? …Right. I could tell what the bible calls her outright, but I want this to remain a wholesome, family thread.
-for now.
The inappropriate but enduringly popular moniker THEY use on THEMSELVES (by now its clear I mean, “The Church”) makes most on the outside of the kind of Christianity the Bible teaches, think, just as you are supposed to, that—
at least when referring to the Pope’s organization,
this title IS, and for any and all practical purposes, MEANS in EVERY case- Christianity itself.
But kids, really, it just don’t.
You mention all the agreements and decisions THEY made at THEIR councils and meetings about how this concept is to be thought of concerning God, and that idea is to be believed by order of this think-tank or that guy in a big hat… but those were all Catholic meetings, ideas and teachings. And they don’t decide squat for me or those who read and follow The Word and His Holy Spirit.
All of you need to go back and look at my post about NOT being Catholic. Its short but to the point. I didn’t insult the thing, but I did say that I stay far from it.
Why then would I say that if I was Catholic? Many of your comments rest on the logic that they are one and the same. My view of that organization however rests on feeling the way the Bible, history and especially current events tend to view that organization. The slant of your arguments gentlemen (and ladies) is based on the assumption that if someone is Christian, they must be Catholic. This is off.
I know who the Catholics are and what they are all about. If you want I can even post more pictures than anyone would have time to look at from the Vatican itself taken during all but one of my 3 or 4 research trips there. Or I can post pictures of them bowing down and honoring wood statures from various locations during my study of their beliefs. Not that I’ve had to do too much to really understand them. I used to regularly attend mass myself. Oh I know.
I DO bow to the general pattern emerging on this thread- at least partially- that yes, there is evidence of Catholicism being a mish-mash, but to cut and paste Catholic beliefs on Christianity itself is a lie and shows you don’t really understand it the way you think you do. To say THEY merged various pagan religions would be, and IS a truth. In fact, I saw proof of it being much more (or much less, depending how you look at it). There is more pagan symbolism in and around the Vatican than there are bricks.

[edit on 11-4-2010 by Gary7MediaTerrorist]

I would appreciate it if you did not talk to me as if I were an idiot. There is a difference and you should learn what it is before telling me what I believe.
Of course I am well able to assist any interested right here.
Oh and just for the record, I don’t celebrate Jesus’ birth. Mankind made that holiday up. Just like most others “The Church” and millions all over the world celebrate. This is another example of the kind of “Christian” TRUE followers of Jesus aren’t. We don’t keep to traditions of mere men. We march only to the tune of His Word and His Holy Spirit. He never taught doing that anyhow.
Ya’ll don’t know me.
Or Christianity for that matter.
You just think you do because you have been drowning in the patterns of this age. You are convinced that they are true because you are supposed to and because it is time for that line of thought to become prevalent in "the world".
I you think nobody ever heard of “Saturnalia” but you?
What, do you mock me?
You’ll have to step 'yo game up more than this if you want to show me anything new about what the Catholic system is and ain’t, and what Christianity is and ain’t.
Once you’ve found out the difference you might begin to see….
“da-da-dun-duuuuuuunnnnn--!”
the “light”.
PS- I also respectfully just wanted to mention- perhaps for the deepening of this thread- that I am a prophet. Yep. God really talks to me. Not yet with a voice that sounds like Morgan Freeman or James Earl Jones but with various modes of communication including but not limited to: visions, dreams and sensations. Controversial, for some I'm sure but absolutely true nonetheless. And don’t think that because He hasn’t spoken to me audibly His communications aren’t or can’t be specific. They can be shockingly specific.
I pray He reveals Himself to you all. But He won’t unless you really want Him to and have the right heart.
G7 out.

[edit on 11-4-2010 by Gary7MediaTerrorist]

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
I would appreciate it if you did not talk to me as if I were an idiot. There is a difference and you should learn what it is before telling me what I believe.

woa! I don't think anyone here has done that. If I did, I do apologize.

Of course I am well able to assist any interested right here.
Oh and just for the record, I don’t celebrate Jesus’ birth. Mankind made that holiday up. Just like most others “The Church” and millions all over the world celebrate. This is another example of the kind of “Christian” TRUE followers of Jesus aren’t. We don’t keep to traditions of mere men. We march only to the tune of His Word and His Holy Spirit. He never taught doing that anyhow.
Ya’ll don’t know me.
Or Christianity for that matter.
You just think you do because you have been drowning in the patterns of this age. You are convinced that they are true because you are supposed to and because it is time for that line of thought to become prevalent in "the world".
I you think nobody ever heard of “Saturnalia” but you?
What, do you mock me?
You’ll have to step 'yo game up more than this if you want to show me anything new about what the Catholic system is and ain’t, and what Christianity is and ain’t.
Once you’ve found out the difference you might begin to see….
“da-da-dun-duuuuuuunnnnn--!”
the “light”.

I am a confirmed Catholic but found that after I gained enough brain power to think for myself, I don't agree with some of what the Catholic church represents. ( I didn't mean that derogatory, just when your a kid, you do what you are told.) I understand that you aren't a Catholic. When I say "the church", I guess I am referring to the groups of fundamentalists I have encountered on the web and here. Since this is to be a learning experience for all involved, please elaborate on your group. Are you part of a specific one? Where did you learn all about masonry? ( I am eluding to the original point of trying to find out when and where we start worshiping Lucifer)

PS- I also respectfully just wanted to mention- perhaps for the deepening of this thread- that I am a prophet. Yep. God really talks to me. Not yet with a voice that sounds like Morgan Freeman or James Earl Jones but with various modes of communication including but not limited to: visions, dreams and sensations. Controversial, for some I'm sure but absolutely true nonetheless. And don’t think that because He hasn’t spoken to me audibly His communications aren’t or can’t be specific. They can be shockingly specific.
I pray He reveals Himself to you all. But He won’t unless you really want Him to and have the right heart.
G7 out.

I don't want to diminish your statement, but He talks to me too. And many other people I have talked to. Like you said, no booming voice from a burning bush yet, but thoughts, songs on the radio, direction when I am lost.(spiritually lost, I have GPS for the road) I thought all you had to do was talk to him first.

reply to post by network dude

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
I would appreciate it if you did not talk to me as if I were an idiot. There is a difference and you should learn what it is before telling me what I believe.

woa! I don't think anyone here has done that. If I did, I do apologize.

Nooo, my man! Notice my post was just a general post- not a quote from you. Matta fact, I am starting to really respect you and you have not said anything I find offensive! In fact you have been as cool as your avatar and as eloquent as an African-born candidate for president -wait-
scratch that last part.
Yea, this is mostly between you and me, but really, my comment was directed at several comments on this thread but yours was not among them. And by making that statement I was not saying anyone called me an idiot, it just seems that they think I haven’t dug any deeper than my own faith and convictions. Which would be idiotic.

When I say "the church", I guess I am referring to the groups of fundamentalists I have encountered on the web and here. Since this is to be a learning experience for all involved, please elaborate on your group. Are you part of a specific one?

Fair enough. I don’t have any branch, title or membership card to distinguish me as a part of this group and not that one. The true Christian makes no such distinctions nor needs any. I’m not Anglican, Baptist or Methodist. These are all man-made and assisted schisms in the true union between God and man. This is in other words, part of the problem. The Bible states that there are no divisions in Christ so what are all those denominations for anyway? To divide us and to cause confusion that's what.
I am a Christian. That’s it. Real plain and simple. Additional divisions or distinctions are really just the carnal error of man.

Where did you learn all about masonry? ( I am eluding to the original point of trying to find out when and where we start worshiping Lucifer)

Well like I said, I know several Masons. They told me as much as they could I guess before crossing the line and having their throats slit and all that. I also conducted a significant amount of research into the subject myself from as many different reliable sources as possible. I have researched as many of their symbols, customs and ceremonies as possible over the course of years and have come to the inevitable conclusion that the organization is spiritually corrupt. This is not to say that you are an evil man just because you joined, but it does mean there is more to Masonry than most know or are willing to admit if they do.
I could go into more detail but delving too deeply into details- especially at this point in the discussion, would only serve to erode the conversation and cause it to degenerate into petty claims probably too difficult to prove or disprove.
Symbols however never lie. Now while I can be sure I don’t know all the symbols Masonry uses or all of their meanings, I’ll bet none of you do either. But some of the ones I do know and understand are too close to too many Luciferian ones to just be coincidence. At least as far as this media terrorist is concerned.
While this particular can of worms will undoubtedly be aired well before this thread unravels, let me apologize now for my brevity and spotty responses but they are the most my short time affords me. I would also like to thank everyone who has participated even if I know they are dead wrong.
Lastly I don’t think you diminished my claim of hearing from God or even came close. He does talk to me and that’s that. I also am pretty sure I am not the only one who He has spoken to. But I said more. I didn’t just say God spoke to me.
I said I was a prophet.
Once again gentlemen (and ladies), there is most assuredly a difference.
G7 Out

[edit on 11-4-2010 by Gary7MediaTerrorist]

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
Symbols however never lie. Now while I can be sure I don’t know all the symbols Masonry uses or all of their meanings, I’ll bet none of you do either. But some of the ones I do know and understand are too close to too many Luciferian ones to just be coincidence. At least as far as this media terrorist is concerned.

I have a thread where we discussed Lucifer/Luciferianism in realtion to Masonry. No one was capable enough to argue the 'Masonry is Luciferian' point, perhaps you want to give it a try.

I would also like you to explain how, for people who do not believe in the Devil/Satan (whom I assume you mean when you say Lucifer), Luciferian symbols would have any meaning.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist


I went through Catholic education for 10 years..

Catholics (at least where I am from) do call themselves Christian.

Catholics do call the Church the Mother Church.

And your right it's always mentioned as a female, which I find ironic considering how openly anti-female the Church is lol.

Though I think it important to point out that indeed any definition, sexually placed on the Church, or any Nouns used to name it... are all from a translation in the middle ages. I've never read the Greek/Latin/Aramaic versions of the Bible, but I'd bet the originals are quite different. And I'm pretty sure the Church was never called the Mother Church until the Protestant rifts, but I could be wrong.

But your absolutely right that not all Christians are Catholic, but all Catholics are Christian. Though, and I am obviously biased because of my own history.. I find it slightly ironic that Protestants can take such a hardliner position in Christianity, even being Anti-Catholic themselves.. when most of their beliefs, even the very Bible they use.. are all Catholic in origin.. unless you belong to the Cults like Jahova or Mormonism. In the end, they all believe the same things, perhaps with minor differences.

But here's my point..

Why does it matter what I believe God is? It shouldn't.. no one should ever concern themselves with it. I'm insignificant enough that for someone to get their panties in a bunch because I don't believe in the Christian version of God, is incredibly ignorant. Further more. I should have no reason to question anyone elses belief in God.. it's a personal matter. And if I burn in hell for it, so be it.. I'm not overly concerned. I live my life peacefully, I try to help people at every turn, and I've never done anything to harm another. THAT is all that matters. If we just concentrate on living our lives as decent Humans, and not striving to one up others because of their different beliefs.. the World would be a much, much better place.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist


The main reason I wanted to start this thread was to find out what you and others who believe as you do, think about masonry being lucifarian. So I will tell you about the significant symbols in masonry as I see them.

the square and compasses are the obvious ones. I don't think you could make anything evil out of those. The square is to remind us to square our actions and the compasses to circumscribe and keep us within due bounds with all mankind.

Next are the more obscure ones. The 24 in gage and the common gavel.

"The twenty-four inch gauge is an instrument used by operative masons to measure and lay out their work; but we, as free and accepted masons, are taught to make use of it for the more noble and glorious purpose of dividing our time. It being divided into twenty-four equal parts, is emblematical of the twenty-four hours of the day, which we are taught to divide into three equal parts; whereby are found eight hours for the service of GOD, and a distressed worthy brother; eight for our usual vocations; and eight for refreshment and sleep. "The common gavel is an instrument made use of by operative masons to break off the corners of rough stones, the better to fit them for the builder's use; but we, as free and accepted masons, are taught to make use of it for the more noble and glorious purpose of divesting our hearts and consciences of all the vices and superfluities of life; thereby fitting our minds as living stones for that spiritual building, that house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

source

Before I bore you into submission, let me know if these are the symbols you speak of. I can assure you they are the ones Free and Accepted Masons think of when anyone mentions symbols.

The square is to remind us to square our actions and the compasses to circumscribe and keep us within due bounds with all mankind.

The compasses to circumscribe "our desires" and keep us within due bounds with all mankind

Made no sense without the other two words. Not to nitpick, just to clarify for those trying to make sense.

This thread has been pretty A+ so far.

Can't wait to hear more.

Originally posted by network dude
Next are the more obscure ones. The 24 in gage and the common gavel.

"The twenty-four inch gauge is an instrument used by operative masons to measure and lay out their work; but we, as free and accepted masons, are taught to make use of it for the more noble and glorious purpose of dividing our time. It being divided into twenty-four equal parts, is emblematical of the twenty-four hours of the day, which we are taught to divide into three equal parts; whereby are found eight hours for the service of GOD, and a distressed worthy brother; eight for our usual vocations; and eight for refreshment and sleep. "The common gavel is an instrument made use of by operative masons to break off the corners of rough stones, the better to fit them for the builder's use; but we, as free and accepted masons, are taught to make use of it for the more noble and glorious purpose of divesting our hearts and consciences of all the vices and superfluities of life; thereby fitting our minds as living stones for that spiritual building, that house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

source

Yeah, even after a number of years as a Master Mason, that 24-inch gauge lecture from the Entered Apprentice degree is still one of my favorites. Divide your time and use it well. Simple and obvious advice, but so essential to leading a balanced life! And, to be honest, still something I struggle most with as I try to balance my family and my home with my work and my school and my creative outlets and my friends... oh, and Masonry itself. I try to lead my life to the fullest, taking every opportunity as it arises, but I can't do that and neglect any other aspects of my life, because that would do them a disservice.

I tend to think of Masonry as a self-help course which uses allegory as it's principle method of imparting wisdom. But that's just what it is to me, and a dozen other Masons would tell you it's something else. And we'd all be right.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
Symbols however never lie. Now while I can be sure I don’t know all the symbols Masonry uses or all of their meanings, I’ll bet none of you do either. But some of the ones I do know and understand are too close to too many Luciferian ones to just be coincidence.

If satanism decides today to use a Cristian cross as a satanic symbol, that would not make that cross satanic.

The symbols used in masonry were there long before satanism existed. The fact is, if satanism adopted any of them, that is satanism's business, not Freemasonry's.

Freemasonry used them first.

[edit on 12/4/2010 by Saurus]

Originally posted by Taskism

The compasses to circumscribe "our desires" and keep us within due bounds with all mankind

Made no sense without the other two words. Not to nitpick, just to clarify for those trying to make sense.

This thread has been pretty A+ so far.

Can't wait to hear more.

thanks for the fix. I got so caught up in looking for the link, I rushed my part.

Originally posted by Saurus


The symbols used in masonry were there long before satanism existed. The fact is, if satanism adopted any of them, that is satanism's business, not Freemasonry's.

I'm not aware of the satanists even using any symbols of Freemasonry. LaVey hijacked Eliphas Levi's pictorial allegory of Baphomet without having understood its meaning, but even Levi's Baphomet is not a Masonic symbol.

The issue with symbols is they change meanings a good deal.
The pentagram, for example, has had a number of interpretations over the years.
It's a symbol that wards off evil, a symbol of Christ when inverted, a symbol of Satan when inverted.