For those who dislike America's current stance...

Much has been posted and postulated both here and in other sources about local and global dissatisfaction with supposed "imperialist" policies of the United States. Many of the more vocal detractors are what we may traditionally call "liberals" and a seeming vast sea of Europeans who are idiots of history.

While I have no illusions that I may sway any opinion, especially of those abroad, I would suggest that the members of this community who have occasion to denounced the United States stance take time to contemplate a critical moment in world history:

www.marshallfoundation.org...

"The Marshall Plan was a rational effort by the United States aimed at reducing the hunger, homelessness, sickness, unemployment, and political restlessness of the 270 million people in sixteen nations in West Europe. Marshall Plan funds were not mainly directed toward feeding individuals or building individual houses, schools, or factories, but at strengthening the economic superstructure (particularly the iron-steel and power industries). The program cost the American taxpayers $11,820,700,000 (plus $1,505,100,000 in loans that were repaid) over four years and worked because it was aimed at aiding a well-educated, industrialized people temporarily down but not out.

The economic problems in 1947-48 included not only the lack of capital to invest, but also the need for Europeans to overcome a U.S. trade surplus with them so massive as to imperil further trade and to encourage unmanageable inflation. Marshall Plan money helped stimulate the revival of European trade with the world and increased trade among European countries. "

Forget our intervention in World War II, and the conflicting opinions on what our aid meant to Europe -- without the efforts of the government of the United States under the Marshall Plan, Europe would not be what it is today.

Not only was it offered toWestern Europe but Eastern Europe and the USSR ( who turned it down )as well. If Stalin hadn't been so paranoid of US influence, then Russia may not have been the backward nation it is today.
Just another example of US selflessness.

"For those who dislike America's current stance"

Thats just what it is, the current stance.
The marshall plan was and is a good example of what America can do but if you expect us to say oh, you did something nice for us in the past you can do whatever you like till kingdom come then your not going to get it.
We've went down many a weaving road since then and Britain, along with America have had no representative governments since the 70's. With America it started with Regan, with Britian it was Thatcher. Since then in both countries (and probably others), their has been no choice in government, both sides labour/conservative republican/democrat have been the same beast in different guises. I'm not going to stop opposing them just because you did something good in the past. America, like Britain, is essentially a good and decent country. Its the governments that stink to high hell.

Not sure if i've made myself clear there, probably not but i've got the flu and i feel drunk. (wish i was...)

Originally posted by Winston Smith
without the efforts of the government of the United States under the Marshall Plan, Europe would not be what it is today.

Ok. now let�s go back to history and let�s see what was america 400 years ago? nothing, before they discovered that north america was there, they raped south america taking over gold silver & gems.
When britains new about the new continet full of resources, they wanted to take control over it, and the only way to do it is first take some colonies, (13) all over the continent, to connect them at 1 point and create a
unity of states, america had english as a main language,
coming from the british of course.
America has 300 years history being the most powerful country in the world, which is pretty weird knowing what europe has suffered in history, for thousands of years, civilization, evolution etc etc, how come a country just found can become so powerful? the stuff is that they did move to america to rule afterwards, they knew it was going to be easier having a whole continent to start again, and once learned from the huges and biggest mistakes made in europe from 5000 Bc till 2000 Ac
They had a solid base to create the "tool" for the final time, america rules in almost everything and they had nothing, 300 years ago they were indigens all over the continent, america is just one of the experiments, as every country in this world, we are not enemies from each other, doesn�t matter arab, chinese, european, american, australian, we are all humans beens, and as that everyone here should survive with the minimum needed, do u think if america is taking care of it�s citizens or the citizens of the world would do what is doing? then answer me those questions:

-Why the entire world hates america (not it�s citizens)
-Why is the country in the world with more police per person in the world!
-What is safe in a country where with 18 years u can buy a gun.(just show your id card and money) ( and then is not allowed to drink untill 21........
no comments)
-What is defend the people if the BASIC thing like Health is PRIVATE, No public social security, and not accesible for all.
-What is democratic if u want to make a politic campaign u have to pay millions and millions of $ for support it all. (only rich is able to be elected in the goverment what a nice democracy)
-Why they don�t respect the world, nature and humans beens with the Kyoto agreement ? is that respect?
-How many times did i heard bush using excuses about the Freedom
and so on and it�s one of the most aggresive politics in the world against free thinking?
-So,start a war for a suposed oil problem? Can u explain me why in america a galleon of gasoline is so cheap, and out of america it costs at least 4 times more? So u have the cheapest oil in the world and bush still wants more????
-Why spend every year more money in defend the country (from who could be a good question) in army, while more then 60% of the americans
don�t live properly, first is suposed to look for your people and then you will look after them.
-Why punish and blame the rest for being terrorist for have weapons, while in america u got the people getting into a school shot to everybody and then killthemselves, while amercia has been producing AND USING nuclear biological and mass destructions weapons from 1920..., SO THE REST IS NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT, BUT AMERICA YES, that is fair, justice, democratic!!
-Who is terrorist? someone who kills 5000 innocent people that are not responsable for any matter related,
or kill 150.000 throwing an atomic bomb in a mayor city?
Both but the 2nd is a real butcher....
-Why produce 10 times more pollution than EUROPE-ASIA-AFRICA in a year, and nevermind about it?
-Why destroy the amazonic jungle to get some wood for americans and be able to build hi ways to south america, while IT�S THE LUNG OF THE WORLD, it�s not enough to produce 10 times more than europe!!!! To start o get rid of the only thing that cleans it!!!
-Why if you have the most powerful coin in the world, and there is people killing on the streets for get a rolex or whatever, (btw i friend of mine died in holidays in america (New york) killed by criminals, they�ve killed my friend because of the shoes the jacket and the watch, he didn�t want to give it, and the shoot at him with a gun a group of black guys (note i don�t have anything against black people is just the part of the story) there u have your superiority, people killing each other for material useless staff, everywhere police, laws against your freedom, why if u are the richest country in the world,
u have one of the worst criminality on the world?

It doesn�t make sense m8, we are all being f*cked, marshall plan is just an excuse for all that bad things done, and for shut their own ppl. I accept that we all can live in a nice world without being controlled like that, but first we must understand that we all have a common enemy and is ruling us!!!

Mr. Anger, I must admit having difficulty understand your point(s) and how they relate to the issues at hand (US attacked, US retaliating, much of Europe against the US who built what they are now).

Why don't we examine your issues one at a time, it may be easier that way. Pick the one you feel is most germaine to this discussion, and we'll examine its merits.

Originally posted by kegs
Thats just what it is, the current stance.

The current stance:
- Iraq is a conqured nation not living up to its terms of surrender
- US was attacked by a group connected to the Iraqi regime
- US desires to prevent future attacks by changing Iraqi regime

This does not seem too dissimilar to the situation in Europe prior to World War II.... only in this case, a preemptive solution is sought.

Why do so many have trouble condensing the issues to these simple concepts?

First point was that amercia was created by europe,
and u said "without the efforts of the government of the United States under the Marshall Plan, Europe would not be what it is today" which is difficult to understand, if u mean it as first world wide war or the 2nd i�ll tell you again that it was made for create feelings in ppl, concepts, political ideas, because it�s the only way to come with a new way to control a country, u can see it
on the history of the human been, when they explain it it makes no sense, when u think by your own why this why this why this, u get to the point that nothing has a logica on what we know, we are used to think in way, knowing certain stuff that is given to us from society,
this is a simple concept that show that we need to get rid of all those inventions from them to stop our mental evolution, therefore u have the capitalism growing everwhere, and materialism is becoming a reason for live here in this world, ppl listen, america might be a beautiful country, with nice ppl, food weather whatever,
rules upstairs are using your feelings and concepts (already given by them) to turn u against your only allies
the ppl of the world, we are the workers, we are the 95% of the affect ppl, we are letting all this happen, actually terrorist is invented for 2 reason:
-Give to mass someone to blame, and also awakes the worst part of human being. So use ppl�s feelings to
act, in the end we are all controlled doesn�t matter
Usa, Africa, Germany, Spain, England, Korea, Japan, WE ARE ALL CONTROLLED, if there is a terrorist group it will be against the rules and Rulers but, not the ppl that won�t change anything, if bush says now or you are with us or u are against us, it�s a nice msg from them:
or u accept what we say
o u are dead meat

2- Get rid of privacy and property asap.
Means dictator in a nice way, all ppl really is against any war because it doesn�t make sense to get 2 buildings on ground and go bomb a entire country, no one care while ETA was in Spain for 20 years putting bombs into supermarkets, cities, mayor cities and capital, killing already thousands of innocent ppl, no one new about terrorism, they made it official after 11-s coz it was planned, it�s obvios m8, btw i saw here in this forum
a nice link u should check (don�t believe it just watch another source of info )

www.serendipity.li...

Now i tell u that the goverment that controls us is the same in all the world, they just play a game, like u play monopoly, but who is getting hurt is not them, WE ARE GETTING HURT!!!!! in our way to life, in feelings that U MUST FEEL! like the stupid patriotism for a country, while we are all citizens of this world, what patriotism they want, they like the streets of the country? traditions of 100 years ago that u don�t understand?
Stores that u never saw? food? women that u never see?
what makes u so proud of your country to allow them brainwash u like that
Note (i�m not refereing to anyone here ).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- Iraq is a conqured nation not living up to its terms of surrender
- US was attacked by a group connected to the Iraqi regime
- US desires to prevent future attacks by changing Iraqi regime

"Why do so many have trouble condensing the issues to these simple concepts?"


because those concepts my friend are created for media opinion and also say that it�s stupid to spend all this money taxes effort, military etc etc just for "protect themsleves from terrorist attacks"
Look they are just using the terrorist word as a concept
completely changed , to manipulate mass, for
me what bush said weeks ago
"or You�re with us"
or
"You�re against us"
It�s a very clear msg, i�m just trying to show winston that history has been change and made like this for a purpose, it�s impossible to get smart politicians then?
if the politicans and political partys really controls the countries, can u explain me why every year the quality of life get�s worst to everyone? instead of going better?
i mean if u want to study politics in university u have to study a LOT , basiclly a lot of history laws, society bla bla bla, how come studying all these history, mistakes made, and procedures tried they still get worst every year? because they do not control, they are there to get the S*ht from the media and make feel the media that everything is solved voting another one...... and another one and another one....

Cold Anger what on earth are you trying to say ? I am having real trouble decyphering this ramble.
PS. Is English your native tongue ?

Well sorry for try to explain everything together, my very first point of this is simple:
-All is linked, deep inside, but is linked, for me this
society never had a meaning because of the social
excuses used, but i couldn�t understand how this society keeps on going while ppl is not satisfied with it...

My point is that is time to choose, i don�t wanna force ppl to choose, but they will, and as i said we are all together in this, and our enemies are upstairs controlling us, is just that, the main problems is how
they are confusing population with news and stories
that aren�t a fact.

pfff, when you compare the world to 100 people, 6 of them are american and have 50% of all money.

Mr. Alien Addicted, your reality is somewhat skewed from what really is.

If we examine 1999 numbers (easily searchable on the web, start with Google), for which there is the most complete information:

World Population: 5.8 billion
US Population: .29 billion
Ratio of World-to-US population 20:1

You were close, but you should specify 5 Americans.

Next, we'll look at the gross domestic product
224 Countries reporting (www.eia.doe.gov): $31.2 Trillion
U.S. Gross Domestic Product: 7.8 Trillion
Ratio of World-to-US GDP: 4:1

So, those 5 Americans have 25% of the wealth. Still staggering, but very different.

Why do you suppose that a country that has only 5% of the world's population generates 25% of the world's domestic wealth?

6 people with 50% = 5 people with 41,66%

25% + Black budget, I won't be far off

What is this "black budget" you speak of?

Whatever it is, you seem to imply it's worth close to $8 trillion.

Black budget, the tax-payers money that goes to black projects.


Underground bases, black heli's, don't know what secret planes they all have...


Ed/ Won't be that much, but you get my point do you.

[Edited on 4-3-2003 by alienaddicted]

I think he's referring to the "Black Budget" programs that Congress allocates funds to, without even knowing *what* those programs do with that money.

Yes, US citizens *do* pay (via taxes) for programs & organizations that not even Congress has any idea *what* they're doing with that money. This is why they're referred to as "Black Budget"...They are not legally *required* to report to Congress who they are, what they do or even how they spend that money. It's has do to the Security Clearence (& the "need to know") that has been tagged to them.


[Edited on 4-3-2003 by MidnightDStroyer]

winston,

The current stance:
- Iraq is a conqured nation not living up to its terms of surrender
- US was attacked by a group connected to the Iraqi regime
- US desires to prevent future attacks by changing Iraqi regime

This does not seem too dissimilar to the situation in Europe prior to World War II.... only in this case, a preemptive solution is sought.

Why do so many have trouble condensing the issues to these simple concepts?

Thats all well and good, apart from your second point about the iraq/al quiada connection which rests on extremely shaky ground indeed.

Anyway, your original post was referring to after the war, and you've rebutted it by referring to the situation before the war. Which is it you want to talk about? make up your mind, it's your thread. I mean from the first post it seemed like, stop me if im mad, that i should reply to that. no?

Having difficulty in following Cold Anger, especially when the first sentence is flawed.

America was not created by Europe, America (united states of America) was created because or Europe. Make no mistake, and do not attempt to take credit.

And as any Englishman who has the misfortune of trying to communicate with an American will tell you, we do not speak "english" as we've butchered that language beyond recognition.

Ahem...

Maybe I am mistaken but... wasn't the aid america gave european nations repaied over the years? (maybe wrong but will continue anyways)

So basically, if you for saome reason need some money, you go to the bank, ask for a loan, you receive your money and pay the bank, now by your brilliant logic we must be forever grateful to that bank, perhaps create a new religion? new dogmas and new messiahs for the bank loan God? oh yeah... brilliant point!

I live in Portugal, Portugal had a lot of collonies, I'll take Angola as an example, Angola has a brilliant economic potential, this has been known for centuries, when Angola wished for independency, and when it was finally granted, Portugal loaned huge amounts of money to that country, you know what, it has never been repaid, Portuguese politicians are talking about forgiveness of the debit, so basically Portugal GAVE money to Angola and no one in Portugal expects anyone from Angola to accept all portuguese government stances and actions, if any problem should happen and the Angolan government would disagree portuguese methods we wouldn't call their attention to our generous "loans". So please cut that illogical crap, can we discuss ideas or will forever be someone trying to mask the hypocritical american behaviour? :\


Also you are forgetting a very important thing, this marshall plan, it isn't altruism, it is an investment, if europe would be economically weak, then also America would suffer, also American economy would go down the drain and obviously american economists understood that.

erms we the asian never forget the helping hand from the america,astralia,great britain,new zealand.
from their vision the ASIA nowadays became more modernist and prosperity,but there is certain thing from time to time the vision of USA goverment policy and other have change indeed so the only thing that we
REALLY AGAINS IS THE AMERICAN FORIEGN POLICY
toward other country.we didnt hate the american country or the american people.
but when something happen in other states the media
rush hour ask all the american citizen to evacuate as soon as posible so where is the rational all of this.
most of the american tourist came to the asia bring some dollar so the local business might get bloom but
the american media actually who plays the act like to ask you back who is controlling the media?

The only area I have difficulty with is how far Europes gratitude should extend to the US for it's (admittedly huge) help in the past.

Whether the reasons for invading Iraq are valid or not you cannot expect other nations to back you solely on the help they recieved from you. This is not to say that I don't think there is some very dubious political agendas being played out by certain UN members at the moment but please understand that some people oppose this war not because of any anti-america stance but because they have genuine doubts. Not me I think they should go in and get it over with but I can understand some peoples fears in that a certain defensive jingoism is being displayed at times, understandable as this is, due to the events of the past eighteen months or so. The US has gone through massive shock and re-evaluation of it's place in the world.