Deadly explosion goes off at Moscow Metro station

Originally posted by Ridhya
If Im not mistaken the Chechen as well as Ingush and Dagestani converted to Islam relatively recently. Also if I recall the tribes in the area united in order to fight the Tsar and later Stalin, and I think it was first Stalin who banned them from their home land. They were working with the Nazis who promised them their home land to fight insurgency against the Soviet Union.

Yes, that is pretty much correct.

Originally posted by Ridhya
I completely disagree with you though the Chechens are not all terrorists they are people

I never referred to all Chechens as terrorists. The majority of the population is civil and doesn't get involved with the separatists.

Originally posted by Ridhya
many have been pushing for Chechen Autonomous Region for decades, though you are right for some it isnt about autonomy so much as revenge.

Chechen separatism was originally rooted in an "indepence" movement, back in late 80's and early 90's. They were de facto independent from 1991 to 1994, and then again from 1996 to 1999. But Islamist and fanatic interests, including a large number of foreign Muslim insurgents, have started to sidetrack the indepence movement around 1992. They openly wanted to spread Islam and create war throughout the Caucasus, and drag other Russian provinces into the mess. They started raiding neighboring Russian and Georgian towns, and the economy quickly became one of crime. There was never law or politics - situation deteriorated into anarchy and warlords controled the territory. Many local Russians were murdered or forced to leave Chechnya.

This was all before the Russian forces got involved. By 1994 the situation was threatening the entire region and drug and arms trade through Chechnya increased tenfold. By the time war broke out in late 1994, there was little left of the original independence movement. After the first war Chechnya became de facto "independent" again, and started making massive raids and attacks on neighboring Russian provinces.

The Second Chechen War started after the Islamist insurgents attacked Dagestan in 1999. By that time it no longer had anything to do with Chechen independence - the insurgents' stated goals were to create a Radicalist Califat throughout the Caucasus. The current terrorists are the remainder of those radical insurgents, most of whom are not related to the earlier Chechen independence movement of the 80's and 90's.

I lived in the North Caucasus region for many years, and traveled widely there. I personally know a number of Chechens, Ingush, Dagestanis, and Ossetians. Everyone of them has a somewhat different opinion, but their views converge on the basic facts surrounding the events.

Originally posted by Ridhya
They were given limited autonomy several years ago and still were not happy though.

The autonomy was granted to the pro-Russian leader-warlord Kadyrov. Kadyrov himself is fighting the insurgent factions. In fact throughout the conflict's history, there was constant infighting between Chechen factions. A number of factions was in opposition to the separatists and their methods, and cooperated with the Russians forces.

The current terrorist acts are not by the Chechen leadership, but by the insurgent factions.

Originally posted by Ridhya
I was considering doing my own thread about the situation back in 2006/7 and all because I am so sick of hearing people act like they know the situation when they have never been there and take sides, either side I dont care, the Russians torture information out of civilians and the Chechens execute non-combatants like those British telecomminications guys back in...2006 I think...

You are right, there is a very large amount of ignorance and misinformation when it comes to this topic. Despite the fact that it is so widely debated and discussed, few bother to actually research the facts. Among many Westerns the popular view is to blame Russia. That changed somewhat after 9/11 and Beslan, but widespread misunderstanding of the conflict remains. After all, the Chechen terrorist are closely aligned with Al Quida. Many insurgents have trained in Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Originally posted by merkava
Can you reply to my post on P.4

You seem to love defending russia but why do you try and bury the war crimes commited by russian forces in chechnya?

When did I try to bury the tragic circumstances of the conflict? Russia made many mistakes during the conflict with Chechnya, and the Russian leadership at the time is to blame. This is especially true of the first war - Yeltsin and the utterly incompetent idiot generals like Grachev.

Do not get me wrong - there were a lot of terrible acts committed by everyone involved in that war. It was hell for both Russian and Chechen civilians. The conflict was started and fueled by the Islamic militants, many of whom were foreign insurgents and received foreign funding.

But what we are discussing here is the circumstances of the recent terrorist act and its purpetrators. The current terrorist insurgents are hired militants whose aim is to create instability in the region. They are funded by outside interest, mainly from the Middle East. These terrorist acts have nothing to do with independence. In fact the current rebel warlords, are the ones who turned against the original separatist leadership seeking independence, like Maskhadov. Rather than independence they wanted an radical Islamic Califat spread throughout all of Caucasus.


You seem to present yourself as some kind of self righteous expert, but you clearly know little about the Chechen conflict or its circumstances. Feel free to dispute me - I lived in the Caucasus for many years, and have known a number of people who had first hand accounts of what happened.

Originally posted by merkava
First of all chechnya ain't a #hole, it was turned into a #hole by russian forces commiting mass murder and causing destruction at large scale,Grozny prime example.

Chechnya was already a #hole before the first Chechen War started in 1994. The separatists under Dudayev had de facto independence from 1991 to 1994. They forced local Russian civilians to leave. The economy deteriorated at an incredible pace, and by 1992 these was virtually no legitimate industry in Chechnya. The region survived via activities like arms and drug trafficking, and kidnapping for ransom. Most infrastructure, including electricity and sewage was shut down by 1993. In 1993 the militant factions began to fight against each other, even on the streets of Grozny.

By the time the Russian forces entered in late 1994, Chechnya was already in a severe humanitarian crisis. Of course what happened after, like the bombardment, was also very serious. However make no mistake - there was a serious problem before the Russians intervened, alas recklessly.

Originally posted by merkava
It's not surprising though looking at russia's war crimes history from killing hundreds and thousands of civillians in afghanistan to backing Serbian forces in Kosovo.

Russia didn't back Serbians in Kosovo, and spoke out against certain actions. What it was against however is the biased US intervention and bombing of Serbia. The Kosovo conflict, like many others, involved wrongdoings on both sides. The US and NATO came in and simply blamed everything on the Serbs.

Originally posted by merkava
The only difference is afghan and kosovan seperatists were backed by the US

And ironically by Al Quida and the individuals like Bin Laden! Perhaps you want to refer to him too as a freedom fighter defending the poor Muslim civilians against Western imperialists.

Originally posted by merkava
while chechnya was left all by itself.

Chechnya had very significant funding from the outside. Primarily from countries like Saudi Arabia and the UAE. It also had insurgents and trained mercenaries from all over the Middle East.

Originally posted by merkava
In result russian civillians are paying the price for what their forces and government did in chechnya.

There is never a justification to kill civilians because of the actions of their government, which in fact many of the said civilians disapproved of.

Would an Afghan or a Pakistani or an Iraqi be justified in mass murdering American civilians in the US, because the US forces killed civilians in his or her country?

Would a wife of a US soldier killed in Iraq be justified in blowing herself up in an Iraqi marketplace?

If a policeman unjustly killed your relative, would you be justified in blowing yourself up in a mall and killing innocent bystanders as a sign of protest?

If your neighbor injured your relative, are you to be excused for injuring his family in return?

What this behavior will lead to is a never ending vendetta. Everyone will forget how the mess started, and will just go on killing out of revenge untill there is no one left to kill. This why this type of behavior is called terrorism, and is treated as a crime by every nation. Societies and civilization have laws for a reason.

Retribution is always a shaky justification for a murder, even when it is against the guilty. But it is never a justification to use violance against a third party.

Originally posted by merkava
You want to know why chechyan women are fighting this war?

Because majority of their men have been killed in the conflict.

They are recruited by warlords because they are an easy prey due to their psychological state. These women didn't plan and organize these acts by themselves. They didn't create the explosives. Whoever recruited them didn't give two sh*ts about their killed relatives.

And no the majority of Chechen men were not killed in the conflict. Get your facts and figures straight. A lot of those who have been killed, were not civilians but armed militants.

Teenage widow behind Moscow blast

17 year old girl. Her picture can be found at the article I linked.