Quebec Will Require Bare Face for Service

Originally posted by Exuberant1

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Devout muslim women?

Moderate muslims should have no problem with this.

Moderate Mulsim Women?

Devout Muslims should have a problem with this.

You think they won't?

Possibly but who responsibility is that? The Province, the people that support the Province or the few that have a beef? Quebec has made a stand for certain standards. If a devote Muslim woman stay home because of her beliefs, who's problem is that?

reply to post by intrepid


I like that Quebec is taking a stand against the spread of Islam - but can you not see how this can be spun to make it look as if they are denying Faithful Muslim women the ability to participate in society without going against their faith?

They (devout muslim women) are effectively being given a choice between acting dishonourably and being allowed to interact with beaurucrats/gov't employees, or acting honourable and being denied that ability.

That is how this matter will be portrayed. It is only a matter of time.

Originally posted by Exuberant1
reply to post by intrepid

 

I like that Quebec is taking a stand against the spread of Islam - but can you not see how this can be spun to make it look as if they are denying Faithful Muslim women the ability to participate in society without going against their faith?

Anyone can spin it any way they want. That won't affect Quebecers, including their gov't.

They (devout muslim women) are effectively being given a choice between acting dishonourably and being allowed to interact with beaurucrats/gov't employees, or acting honourable and being denied that ability.

Then she has a choice to make.

reply to post by intrepid


I agree with you.

So what's your take, - do you think this makes Canada look better or worse? (To outsiders)

Is it worth doing (implementing this new requirement), regardless of what negative opinions it conjures?

Originally posted by Exuberant1
So what's your take, - do you think this makes Canada look better or worse? (To outsiders)

Hard to say. Quebecers are Canadians but their society is singularly different. Will this effect all Canadians? Don't know. Hope so though. Nice to see a national opinion on this.

Is it worth doing (implementing this new requirement), regardless of what negative opinions it conjures?

For Quebec, yes. My opinion? Yes. It's backed by logic, not religious dogma.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
It is not racism to expect people who immigrate to your country to integrate with the culture present there. That is called logic.

...it mostly certainly is racism when its coming from the descendants of white immigrants who came over here and not only refused to integrate with the cultures that were already present but went out of their way to annihilate the cultures that were already present...

...about the current deal affecting women who wear a burqa or a veil - not only is this ruling racist, its ignorant, sexist and culturally / religiously intolerant...

...to even begin to be somewhat fair in the "bare face" legislation, they need to get strict with the population as a whole... ie: if you're going to get your pic taken for your license - no make-up, beards, mustaches or wigs allowed on anyone...

...lots of people cover up their "bare face" true appearance every single day and its a-okay socially acceptable, so i wonder how many canadians would be up in arms if this ruling affected their right to dress their face as they choose... bet it would be a wholly different story if that were the case...

It's not like the Quebec government came up with this idea first. A Muslim group had already asked for it to be banned because it promotes gender inequality.

A Canadian Muslim group is calling on Ottawa to ban the wearing of the burka in public, saying the argument that the right to wear it is protected by the Charter’s guarantee of freedom of religion is false.


"The burka has absolutely no place in Canada," said Farzana Hassan, of the Muslim Canadian Congress. "In Canada we recognize the equality of men and women. We want to recognize gender equality as an absolute. The burka marginalizes women."

She said many women who cover their face in public are being forced to by their husbands and family. As a result, she argued, these women are denied opportunities and cannot live freely as other women in this society.

Muslim group calls for burka ban in Canada

Originally posted by Duzey
The burka marginalizes women."

...thats a matter of opinion... besides, it doesnt matter what a non-burqa wearing person says, even if they are muslim... unless the "bare face" law applies to everyone, its biased...

...oh, yeah, i wanna add to my list of other "face cover uppers" that should be affected by this new legislation - people that have face-lifts need to go pay for new pic for their license, people who've gained or lost more than 30 pounds need a new pic, people whose face has been disfigured because of injury or illness need a new pic...

...btw, down here in tejas, they take our fingerprints when we get a license because its easy to change your facial appearance but its a little complicated to change your fingerprints...

I see these folks wearing their burqa’s around here in Florida, and I often wonder why the police here do not charge them with a crime under Florida state law:

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 876
CRIMINAL ANARCHY, TREASON, AND OTHER CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER

876.12: Wearing mask, hood, or other device on public way. -- No person or persons over 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be or appear upon any lane, walk, alley, street, road, highway, or other public way in this state.

876.13: Wearing mask, hood, or other device on public property. -- No person or persons shall in this state, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the state.

876.14: Wearing mask, hood, or other device on property of another. -- No person or persons over 16 years of age shall, while wearing a mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, demand entrance or admission or enter or come upon or into the premises, enclosure, or house of any other person in any municipality or county of this state.

876.15: Wearing mask, hood, or other device at demonstration or meeting. -- No person or persons over 16 years of age, shall, while wearing a mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, hold any manner of meeting, make any demonstration upon the private property of another unless such person or persons shall have first obtained from the owner or occupier of the property his or her written permission to so do.

876.155: Applicability; ss. 876.12-876.15. -- The provisions of ss. 876.12-876.15 apply only if the person was wearing the mask, hood, or other device:
(1) With the intent to deprive any person or class of persons of the equal protection of the laws or of equal privileges and immunities under the laws or for the purpose of preventing the constituted authorities of this state or any subdivision thereof from, or hindering them in, giving or securing to all persons within this state the equal protection of the laws;
(2) With the intent, by force or threat of force, to injure, intimidate, or interfere with any person because of the person's exercise of any right secured by federal, state, or local law or to intimidate such person or any other person or any class of persons from exercising any right secured by federal, state, or local law;
(3) With the intent to intimidate, threaten, abuse, or harass any other person; or
(4) While she or he was engaged in conduct that could reasonably lead to the institution of a civil or criminal proceeding against her or him, with the intent of avoiding identification in such a proceeding.

876.16: Sections 876.11-876.15; exemptions. -- The following persons are exempted from the provisions of ss. 876.11-876.15:
(1) Any person or persons wearing traditional holiday costumes;
(2) Any person or persons engaged in trades and employment where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession;
(3) Any person or persons using masks in theatrical productions, including use in Gasparilla celebrations and masquerade balls;
(4) Persons wearing gas masks prescribed in emergency management drills and exercises.

I see no exemption listed for traditional religious garb…
I mean, if this is a crime:

Man charged with wearing a clown mask in public
By JOSH POLTILOVE

Published: February 25, 2010

TAMPA - Send in the clowns. Then the police.

A teen wearing a clown mask with bright red-orange hair was arrested Tuesday, charged with the rarely reported offense of wearing a mask or hood on a public road and the more common crime of obstructing or resisting an officer without violence.
About 1:10 p.m. Tuesday, a deputy spotted the clown-masked man, later identified as Matthew Lopez, and at least one other person walking south on 58th Street North, a Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office report said.
They headed west through a wooded path near the rear of open offices. A deputy tailed them until a marked Temple Terrace police unit arrived. When the deputy tried to make contact, Lopez and another person ran, an arrest report states.
They were found near 58th Street and 122nd Avenue East.
It's not clear why Lopez, who turned 19 Wednesday, was wearing a mask, sheriff's spokeswoman Debbie Carter said. Lopez was charged with two misdemeanors and has been released on $750 bail.
He couldn't be reached for comment Wednesday.
A juvenile, who has not been named, also was charged with a misdemeanor.
This is not the first time a person has been charged with wearing a mask in public, although it's "pretty uncommon," Carter said.
The charge is based on a 1951 law designed to combat the Ku Klux Klan, part of the section of Florida statutes dealing with criminal anarchy and treason.
In October 2008, Tampa police arrested Walsh Ian Nichols after he was spotted wearing a Batman mask in Ybor City.
A judge dismissed the charges against the Caped Crusader and ordered police to return Nichols' custom-made cowl.

Then why not women walking around here dressed like this is Saudi Arabia…

The foolish double standard here is a pet peeve of mine. You violate any of their religious tenants in a Muslim country, you go to jail. When Muslims go to live or to school in another country they expect to force that country to bow to their wishes and the laws of their homeland. Screw that. You live in another country and expect to stay there, it's you that must adapt. Not the other way around and Political Correctness should not get in the way!
Zindo

reply to post by ZindoDoone


This double standard of political correctness is what is causing the decline of the western world.

Politicians and populations too paralyzed by a fear of being "racist" to stand up for their countries and values, without realizing that the rest of the world has no qualms with being "racist" and will use your weakness as another way to get rid of you.

It's not zenophobia, or racism, it's the truth by golly! The majority of the world is only interested in its own interests, they couldn't care less about offending a declining western society or using it to their advantage!

The federal government opposition is now agreeing with Quebec on this decision.
Ignatieff: Quebec niqab rule a 'good balance'

Maybe this is the start to a truly secular country???

Magnum

@Exuberant1


Not in Quebec and probably alot more than this soon. Canadians overall consider seeing a woman in a Burka to be child abuse if your child is there, and offensive to any woman, and we tend to be listened to a bit more.

I think this needs to go alot further!

[edit on 26-3-2010 by Unity_99]

The first question to ask to solve this issue is to the defendant:

Why have you left your country?

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...about the current deal affecting women who wear a burqa or a veil - not only is this ruling racist, its ignorant, sexist and culturally / religiously intolerant...

ISLAM IS NOT A RACE.

Religion is NOT YOUR RACE.

There is no MUSLIM RACE.

There is no moderate Muslim race.

There is no devout Muslim race.

Whatever people think about this, racism has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
ISLAM IS NOT A RACE.
Religion is NOT YOUR RACE.
There is no MUSLIM RACE.

...i didnt say islam is a race... i didnt say religion is a race... i didnt say muslim is a race...

...i'll repost my sentence again and i suggest you read it S-L-O-W-L-Y...

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...about the current deal affecting women who wear a burqa or a veil - not only is this ruling racist, its ignorant, sexist and culturally / religiously intolerant...

...i'll clarify, since you're having a hard time with such a complex sentence... the bare face law is racist... the bare face law is ignorant... the bare face law is sexist... the bare face law is culturally intolerant... the bare face law is religiously intolerant...

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
There is no moderate Muslim race.
There is no devout Muslim race.

...some of your cylinders aint firin'...

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
Whatever people think about this, racism has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

...i stated the reason why THIS IS A RACIAL ISSUE in my first paragraph of my first post on this thread, which you obviously failed to comprehend - so - i'll repost it for your convenience and i suggest you read it again S-L-O-W-L-Y...

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...it mostly certainly is racism when its coming from the descendants of white immigrants who came over here and not only refused to integrate with the cultures that were already present but went out of their way to annihilate the cultures that were already present...

...did you get it that time?...

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...i'll clarify, since you're having a hard time with such a complex sentence... the bare face law is racist... the bare face law is ignorant... the bare face law is sexist... the bare face law is culturally intolerant... the bare face law is religiously intolerant...

When you are all done being contradictory, arrogant, and rude for no reason - please take the time to read it yourself. You say it is not about race and then bring race right back up.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...some of your cylinders aint firin'...

...i stated the reason why THIS IS A RACIAL ISSUE in my first paragraph of my first post on this thread, which you obviously failed to comprehend - so - i'll repost it for your convenience and i suggest you read it again S-L-O-W-L-Y...

I can not wait!

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...it mostly certainly is racism when its coming from the descendants of white immigrants who came over here and not only refused to integrate with the cultures that were already present but went out of their way to annihilate the cultures that were already present...

LOL. You need to look up what racism is. Racism is not when white people do something. Racism is when something is imposed on ANOTHER RACE. So which race is being imposed by this law you call racist?

Keep telling me to read slowly. That is really entertaining when you are using words you do not understand. Get a dictionary and get back to me.

You do realize that by your logic, anything I do to encourage integration is considered racist because I have white descendants.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by K J Gunderson]

This topic made think of an auxiliary point, how do these women get through any airport in the western world? Do they not have to show a passport with an ID picture and have it compared to their uncovered face?

Makes sense to me. All of it, even as one poster said, if your appearence has changed from the picture on your id. Why? Easy, as long as one woman is the same height as another, all she has to do is take her id, cover her face and voila, identity switch as far as an id is concerned. If your face is shown, then you can't quite do that as easily. Besides, from what many people have said, and from what I understand, it is not stated in the Koran that a woman must cover her face, meaning it's not a religious thing at all.