Is Socialism Theft?

I would really like some of the avowed socialist on this site to explain to me how they justify taking the fruits of ones labor against their will? And how doing so by force can be interpreted as anything other then theft?

I have heard most of the arguments so this thread is really to gage the mindset of these socialist and show why it is we are in this mess. Also for freedom lovers to understand what it is we are up against. This is not a left right paradigm argument, if anything it is a taking by force vs voluntarism.

My premise is that when ever force is involved it is theft period. Calling it taxes or social justice does not make a forced taking any less a theft.

Most people will agree they have no right as individuals to go and take the property or money of someone else against thier will, and that it would be considered theft. But some of these same people seem to think if they get together as a group and vote to do exactly the same thing they know that can't as individual that it is somehow justified all of a sudden.

So the question is if you do not have the right as an individual how is it that a group of individuals without that right suddenly have the right as a group? The obvious answer is they don't however generations of brainwashing seem to make them believe they do.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by hawkiye]

If the majority of society agrees to pitch in a few dollars for Program X, the only ones decrying theft will be the minority.

I believe the basis for a lot of 'greater good' ideas is that everyone has to pitch in, if you don't like it, you will be punished so says the majority, so says society.

I don't feel like it's theft here in Australia. We have a rather socialist government.

I pay taxes. I get services in exchange. It's not too bad.

I'm a little tired of socialism being likened to US healthcare though. It's giving us a bad name.

Originally posted by links234
If the majority of society agrees to pitch in a few dollars for Program X, the only ones decrying theft will be the minority.

I believe the basis for a lot of 'greater good' ideas is that everyone has to pitch in, if you don't like it, you will be punished so says the majority, so says society.

If the majority does not have that right as individuals then where do they get the right as a group? They cannot delegate a right to the group they do not posses as individuals. It is still a taking by force and still theft.

reply to post by hawkiye


Is Socialism Theft?

Yes

Originally posted by belial259
I don't feel like it's theft here in Australia. We have a rather socialist government.

I pay taxes. I get services in exchange. It's not too bad.

I'm a little tired of socialism being likened to US healthcare though. It's giving us a bad name.

Does not the minority have the right to keep the fruits of thier labor and not have it taken by force? Its not about how you feel its about taking something from your neighbour that belongs to him against his will.

So because you get a benefit you feel its ok to take something against someone's will. Why wouldn't you just go to his house and take it then?

[edit on 22-3-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by hawkiye
So because you get a benefit you feel its ok to take something against someone's will. Why wouldn't you just go to his house and take it then?

It isn't being taken from someone against their will. Everyone has to pay income tax. We don't have things like constitutional rights or a bill of rights. Everyone pays tax. That is the law.

Does not the minority have the right to keep the fruits of thier labor and not have it taken by force?

No I don't believe they do. As I said we don't have a bill of rights here.


[edit on 22-3-2010 by belial259]

Originally posted by belial259

Originally posted by hawkiye
So because you get a benefit you feel its ok to take something against someone's will. Why wouldn't you just go to his house and take it then?

It isn't being taken from someone against their will. Everyone has to pay income tax. We don't have things like constitutional rights or a bill of rights. Everyone pays tax. That is the law.

Does not the minority have the right to keep the fruits of thier labor and not have it taken by force?

No I don't believe they do. As I said we don't have a bill of rights here.


[edit on 22-3-2010 by belial259]

So everyone would pay the tax if not "forced" by law? It is against thier will of they don't want to do it regardless of it its a law or not. The law is in fact what forces them against thier will to pay the tax. They do it under threat of coercion and jail etc.

Originally posted by hawkiye
The law is in fact what forces them against thier will to pay the tax. They do it under threat of coercion and jail etc.

We're a Constitutional Monarchy. We didn't have a revolution. The Queen and her predecessors granted us all our freedoms.

Tax just doesn't carry the same social stigma here as it does in the USA. There you have at least some justification for tax protesting. We really have none.

I don't know anyone that has a real issue with paying tax.

Originally posted by hawkiye
If the majority does not have that right as individuals then where do they get the right as a group? They cannot delegate a right to the group they do not posses as individuals. It is still a taking by force and still theft.

An individual is a minority, a group is a majority. It's how a democratic society works.

Simple example: 10 people. Seven opt to pay for a coffee fund, three do not.

One of the three wants coffee, should he be allowed to drink from the majority pot? Is it not stealing if he pays nothing into it but derives service from it?

Let me put it to you this way, since I am a self-described socialist; I'm willing to pay more taxes so your health insurance is cheaper. I'm willing to allow you a 'safety net', even though you have no plans to have an accident, cancer, sickness or death. I only ask you afford me the same.

Now, in our democratic society, when a majority of people agree upon these conditions, we feel the minority are stealing from us if they use the services we pay for.

Does that help at all?

reply to post by hawkiye


Well do you consider the compulsory funding of the police, of the military, of our fireman as theft? Do you believe any form of taxes are theft? Because if do you need to go live out in Somalia maybe in the middle of Alaska, because civilization is not for you.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I do.

reply to post by mnemeth1


So then explain to me how this country intends to survive without police, fireman, the military to protect us? What about our veterans and our responsibility over looking after them after their service? What about government funded research labs where we push this nation ahead of the pack? How on earth do you expect this country to function under a state of nature? This isnt the planet of apes we're talking about here, its reality.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Police In A Free Society

mises.org...

As to the military (of which I am a former member), the US was never intended to have a standing army. The taxes collected for the Army were to be derived from tariffs only. The same is true of the Navy which was required to protect our shipping routes from Pirates.

In fact the Constitution requires Congress to review the need for a standing army every two years and eliminate it when it is not required.

there is a reason we have the second amendment. No country in their right mind would attack a country that has 65 million gun owners.



[edit on 22-3-2010 by mnemeth1]

Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

Police In A Free Society

Funded by whom? The Public? You mean somebody will have to pay money towards funding the police? Somebody will be obligated to pay for the service of protection? And what do you call that? If that isnt socialism, what is it?

As to the military (of which I am a former member), the US was never intended to have a standing army. The taxes collected for the Army to be derived from tariffs only. The same is true of the Navy which was required to protect our shipping routes from Pirates.

Exactly, collected as a form of taxes. It is compulsory funds distributed for the service of defending this nation. Its socialism.

Really? Isnt it rather hypocritical on your side?

reply to post by Southern Guardian


while tariffs and excise taxes are bad, they are the least offensive taxes because companies have incentive to lobby the government to reduce them.

I personally feel that all of our self-defense needs could be met by the private market, as is proven by the paper I linked, instead of by the government. Which means I think all taxes are unnecessary and a form of theft.


[edit on 22-3-2010 by mnemeth1]

Hilariously enough, creating a system where people believe they need to give their money to the government, a private institution, is very capitalist.

Someone saw a way to make money, by imposing law with federal 'power', and decided to capitalise on it. You tell me.

As for what passes as socialism these days, I benefit, even though I have to put in to it, thats called responsibility. I get to go to the doctor for free, use postal service, the roads, who made those? My city's entertainment centre, not possible without government... free medicine when I need it, I get tax return from the government... what little I put in I get well for my money.

And if you hadnt noticed I was referring, that taxes are a socialist idea with capitalist consequences.

An individual is a minority, a group is a majority. It's how a democratic society works.

if the minority does not want to participate then it is theft to force them.

Simple example: 10 people. Seven opt to pay for a coffee fund, three do not.

One of the three wants coffee, should he be allowed to drink from the majority pot? Is it not stealing if he pays nothing into it but derives service from it?

Of course it stealing if he wants a service without paying for it. But if the three don't want to pay and don't want coffee it is also stealing to force them to pay to defray the groups cost. The point is if force is used it is theft and coercion.

Let me put it to you this way, since I am a self-described socialist; I'm willing to pay more taxes so your health insurance is cheaper. I'm willing to allow you a 'safety net', even though you have no plans to have an accident, cancer, sickness or death. I only ask you afford me the same.

If I do not want to participate and wish to take my chances with alternative medicine and you force me to pay against my will how is that anything but theft? I don't want your safety net and I don't want to pay for yours. If you force me you are robbing me. if you can't come to my house and take from me against my will where do you get the right to do so just because you form a group larger then mine?

You are free to have your socialism but you are not free to force me to pay for it if I do not wish to participate. It doesn't matter if you live in Australia or the USA forced socialism is theft to those who do not wish to participate.

And we see how deeply it has been ingrained in people that theft under color of law called taxation etc is justified in this generations mind. If you can't come and steal from me personally as an individual you have no right to form a group and tell government to come and steal from me for you. Why is this so hard to understand?

Now, in our democratic society, when a majority of people agree upon these conditions, we feel the minority are stealing from us if they use the services we pay for.

Does that help at all?

Well if the minority is not paying then yes they are stealing if they take services, but if they are being forced to pay against they will and don't want the service then they are the ones being robbed.




[edit on 22-3-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by Ridhya


no it's not very capitalist.

Capitalism means free markets, free markets means no government interference.

Capitalism also means competition. The reason why the US did so well for so long is because we have competition between the state governments. As power becomes centralized in the federal government we lose more and more of our liberties.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Well do you consider the compulsory funding of the police, of the military, of our fireman as theft? Do you believe any form of taxes are theft? Because if do you need to go live out in Somalia maybe in the middle of Alaska, because civilization is not for you.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by Southern Guardian]

Yes all compulsory taxes are theft. Expedeincy does not justify theft. Explain to me how taking from some one by force is anything but theft?

I don't need to go live anywhere but where I choose because i am a free man not a slave or subject. Especially not subject to someone on a internet board telling me what to do!

I am capable of handling my own affairs in my own area with my neighbors. And making my own contracts for what services I feel I need. Society produces most things attributed to government and has done so for generations without all the trappings many have been brainwashed to believe we can't live without.

Listen to what one of our Founding fathers had to say about it: mises.org...