Is Socialism Theft?

reply to post by Southern Guardian



We are talking about taking from the rich and giving to the poor here Robin Hood.

Like making some dumb a## pay for some baby moms digs or a free college education for every minority in the country. Or pay for some Appalachia drug rehab center and Jim Bobs synthetic smack.

Or even some government grant for some guy to study snails for the betterment of mankind.

Easiest example of socialism at work

2 friends go into a pizza parlor. Jake and Mike.

Jake has 10 bucks, Mike has 2 bucks

A large pizza costs 9 bucks plain or 12 bucks for a double cheese and sausage.

The pizza has 8 slices.

A single slice of pizza is 2 bucks plain.

Jake can buy a large pizza by himself and be fine..Jake can get a slice and be fine...but they decide to pool their money and get a large pizza with pepperoni and extra cheese. Jake then tosses Mike a slice which would have cost him more than he could have afforded by himself considering the extra toppings.
Jake has one slice less than he would have had, but he is fine with that because whats left is simply better.

Tada- a socio-capitalist model to be proud of.

-edit: 30 minutes or less

[edit on 22-3-2010 by SaturnFX]

Originally posted by Logarock
...or a free college education for every minority in the country.

Oops, careful, your racism's showing.

I hope this thread serves to show freedom lovers what they are up against. Judging from the answers of the socialist in this thread it is easy to see why things are in a downward spiral. To many think it is ok to use the power of government to steal from thier neighbors against thier will and they vote crooks and criminals in that give this theft sanction under color of law. The outcome is certain, when you build you foundation on sand it will surely fall!

While there are those that will debate Socialism, Communism, Marxism, Maoism, and the rest of Communist ideals, what I think we have seen coming our way from Obama is more in line with Nationalism, Socialism, and Totalitarianism disguised as change and hope.

That socialism tied in for corporations, bailing them out with our taxes and raising the national debt is a theft, is most certainly true.


there should be non profit insurance companies only.

all this world about is profit nowadays.



[edit on 22-3-2010 by Grey Magic]

Originally posted by hawkiye
I would really like some of the avowed socialist on this site to explain to me how they justify taking the fruits of ones labor against their will? And how doing so by force can be interpreted as anything other then theft?

I think you have fascism and socialism confused, lets see what wiki says shall we?

Socialism; Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization which advocate either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources. Socialists generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation.

Fascism; Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives; values; and systems such as the political system and the economy. Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.


So, there we have it. Funny how you seem to have been brainwashed into believing that socialism is the evil one. Take the health care bill, blatant corporate fascism yet the idiot masses denounce it as socialism when it is anything but.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by m4nchur14n]

Originally posted by Jezus
Is capitalism theft?

Is it stealing to sell someone something for more than it’s worth?

Is it stealing to sell someone something they NEED for as much as
possible?

Is it stealing to sell someone something they don’t need for as much as possible?

Is it stealing to sell someone something by putting them in debt?

None of that is theft if both parties voluntarily entered into contract. You can't put someone in debt unless they voluntarily agree to go into debt. (well unless your tyrannical government)

reply to post by SaturnFX



What you described was all voluntary. Governments use force and that is theft. If people want to have socialism that is fine just don't try and force me to participate or pay for it.

reply to post by m4nchur14n


LOL at you using wiki which any knucklehead can edit. I am not confused at all I defefined them perfectly Socialism and fascism both take from one against their will and give to another who did not labor for it, which is theft period!

Socialism is not some worker owned operation it is government forced and controlled production by force threat and coercion. Fascism is the same but more in your face. They are both communism. Mussolini and Hitler were Fascist and Stalin was a socialist not much difference between them they all murdered millions of thier own people. Yet people here are singing the praises of the systems these two monsters espoused... Sigh!

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by m4nchur14n

 

Socialism is not some worker owned operation it is government forced and controlled production by force threat and coercion.

Really? Since I first started reading about socialism in the early 1980s, ownership of the means to production core has been a, if not the, central aspect.

It's funny, but it's only since coming to places like here and experiencing the after-effects of McCarthyism first hand that I started seeing this insistence that it's not.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by Logarock
...or a free college education for every minority in the country.

Oops, careful, your racism's showing.

A little selective editing there friend? Opps careful your politicaly correct trained mind is showing. What no tears for Jim Bob? You'er a plastic.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by m4nchur14n

 

Socialism is not some worker owned operation it is government forced and controlled production by force threat and coercion.

Really? Since I first started reading about socialism in the early 1980s, ownership of the means to production core has been a, if not the, central aspect.

As much of a capitalist goon as I may sound like some times, I will admit that certain of our founders (federalist papers) were concerned with what would happen in our country when wealth was centralized and the masses became wage earners.

Having said that you got to watch socialist for they are a greedy breed that hide behind their own set of feel good whatnots. Like the above pizza deal. The one guy had more money to buy pizza becouse he got up an collected cans off the side of the road that day and the other guy set at home and stole a doller off his dad and still ate large. Thats socialism! La de da!

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by m4nchur14n

 

Socialism is not some worker owned operation it is government forced and controlled production by force threat and coercion.

Really? Since I first started reading about socialism in the early 1980s, ownership of the means to production core has been a, if not the, central aspect.

As much of a capitalist goon as I may sound like some times, I will admit that certain of our founders (federalist papers) were concerned with what would happen in our country when wealth was centralized and the masses became wage earners.

Having said that you got to watch socialist for they are a greedy breed that hide behind their own set of feel good whatnots. Like the above pizza deal. The one guy had more money to buy pizza becouse he got up an collected cans off the side of the road that day and the other guy set at home and stole a doller off his dad and still ate large. Thats socialism! La de da!

Originally posted by Logarock

As much of a capitalist goon as I may sound like some times, I will admit that certain of our founders (federalist papers) were concerned with what would happen in our country when wealth was centralized and the masses became wage earners.

Having said that you got to watch socialist for they are a greedy breed that hide behind their own set of feel good whatnots. Like the above pizza deal. The one guy had more money to buy pizza becouse he got up an collected cans off the side of the road that day and the other guy set at home and stole a doller off his dad and still ate large. Thats socialism! La de da!

Not really. A far more accurate metaphor for socialism would be the people making the pizza for the two fellows in your example actually owning or co-owning the pizza shop and not on minimum wage working in a multinational company steered by non-working bourgeoisie shareholders.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Merriman Weir]

Let's look at the capitalist wage system. You have your bosses and your employees. The employees bear the brunt of the labor in order to achieve their wages, bestowed upon them by the bosses.

The bosses make significantly more than the employees while doing less labor. In larger companies, the executive make even more while doing even less. Why should the workers get payed less for more work?

That is the dilemma at the heart of "socialism".

Forget your taxes, health cares, roads, police, governments, etc. All these things simply obfuscate the fact of what socialism actually is:

direct ownership of the means of production

Now tell me, would it be theft if you were an employee of a company who received direct payments (i.e, owner shares) from your labor, as opposed to small increments via paychecks from those who hold power over you?

Socialism is not some worker owned operation it is government forced and controlled production by force threat and coercion.

By not knowing what socialism actually is, you invalidate any arguments you may have against it.

Go read some Robert Owen, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and Mikhail Bakunin, study some of the ideas of Libertarian Socialism, Co-Operative Economics, Council Communism and Anarcho-Syndicalism, and learn the difference between Socialism and The New Left. Then perhaps we can have a logical discussion.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Someone336]

Originally posted by Someone336
Let's look at the capitalist wage system. You have your bosses and your employees. The employees bear the brunt of the labor in order to achieve their wages, bestowed upon them by the bosses.

The bosses make significantly more than the employees while doing less labor. In larger companies, the executive make even more while doing even less. Why should the workers get payed less for more work?

That is the dilemma at the heart of "socialism".

Forget your taxes, health cares, roads, police, governments, etc. All these things simply obfuscate the fact of what socialism actually is:

direct ownership of the means of production

Now tell me, would it be theft if you were an employee of a company who received direct payments (i.e, owner shares) from your labor, as opposed to small increments via paychecks from those who hold power over you?

Socialism is not some worker owned operation it is government forced and controlled production by force threat and coercion.

By not knowing what socialism actually is, you invalidate any arguments you may have against it.

Go read some Robert Owen, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and Mikhail Bakunin, study some of the ideas of Libertarian Socialism, Co-Operative Economics, Council Communism and Anarcho-Syndicalism, and learn the difference between Socialism and The New Left. Then perhaps we can have a logical discussion.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Someone336]

You're metaphorically pissing in the wind, friend. I and many others have been down this route many times, posting practically the same things. It doesn't suit a particular 'agenda' or 'mindset' that many here display and it's just easier for them to see 'reds under the bed' and communists with American babies on the end of bayonets than anything else.

Socialism is the antithesis of the American Dream where Americans are fooled in thinking that the individual can work his way up in society and succeed, despite the fact that, in reality, America has relatively poor social mobility - but dreams are free, right?

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

We are talking about taking from the rich and giving to the poor here Robin Hood.

Like making some dumb a## pay for some baby moms digs or a free college education for every minority in the country. Or pay for some Appalachia drug rehab center and Jim Bobs synthetic smack.

Or even some government grant for some guy to study snails for the betterment of mankind.

Even worse still, a large hunk of that money is destined for:
1) Stem Cell Research
2) Cloning
3) Resistant strains for Immunity to WMD's
...the list goes on.

It's just another coffer for the 'elitists' to tap, while sipping martinis in resorts discussing the little people.

I'm sure I'll catch flack on the wonders of stem cell research, but I'm sorry. My opinion is it's a Holy Grail falacy mandated to divert R&D for applicable solutions, so that not much effort is genuinely required.