Originally posted by BlackOps13
what i am saying is that it is my opinion that freemasonry deceives christians by masking some its deeper beliefs with layers of semantics. take for example the practice of not speaking of religion within the lodge. this may seem like no big deal at first, but what it does is promote an attitude among masons of religious indifference.

No. What masonry doesn't do is promote Christianity. Nor does it promote Islam, Hinduism or any other religion. And why should it? Freemasonry is not a religion. There is no logic therefore that indifference is promoted just because Christianity isn't. That's like saying your local butcher doesn't promote sausages so he's therefore guilty of creating vegetarianism.

Your basic point seems to be that you want to force your religion on people. This is what the Catholic Church has been doing for centuries and that is why it doesn't like masonry. The Church can't force us to believe in anything. We choose. And there lies the difference.

I have respect for those who wish to follow religion. There are many masons whom I personally know who are devout Christians. I personally do not follow a proscribed religion but I know that if I did, I definitely wouldn't choose a religion that forces me to worship a god.

All I can say is this: you and I have very different views of what constitutes Christianity. I am well aware that Catholics are officially prohibited from being Freemasons, but I feel that that is an unfortunate mistake. I can understand that you disagree with me about this, but I don't think it's right for you to claim that Freemasonry is counter to the ideals of "Christianity" when what you really mean is that Freemasonry is counter to the ideals of your views on Christianity. I am a Christian, and have only become stronger in my faith since becoming a Mason, so the idea that Freemasonry is antithetical to the Christian faith is prima facie incorrect.

Now, as a Christian, I have some beliefs that you may consider unusual. I do not believe in the "accursedness" of other faiths (this is my primary argument with the doctrines of the Anglican church), and so I don't feel it's wrong to join a Lodge which contains people of other faiths.

Second, I believe that Jesus Christ, through some method probably connected to his crucifixtion and / or ressurection, redeemed everyone's sins, regardless of their belief. For this reason, I don't see any point whatsoever in forcing people into any faith... if a man is a Muslim, I feel that he is surely a Muslim because God so wishes it, and if he is a faithful Muslim who de facto follows the will of God, then I feel that he is just as blessed in God's eyes as any Christian. Of course, I can never know this, because I can never know the mind of God.

I would contend that you don't actually know what goes on in Masonic Lodges, and so you are making assumptions based on what someone has told you. In your basic distrust of Humanism, you are certainly following in the footsteps of the Catholic Church, but I cannot agree with you that Humanism is antithetical to the Christian faith. Essentially, it appears to me that what you are saying is that Freemasonry is not for you. I accept that, even if I think that is unfortunate. But I cannot accept your trying to herd all Christians away from Freemasonry, especially when your views are predicated on the knowledge of the essential nature of an organisation you know nothing about.

Elmariachi! You can't ask rational questions of these antimasonic folks and expect a rational answer...

They hate masons because they hate masons because... the circle goes round and round...

freemasonary may not be devil worship and it may not be an organization controlling the world, but, the heart of it definitely is anti-christian.

Really?? MAY NOT BE!! Sirrah, I can assure you categorically it is not. Would you mind expanding on that "thought" a bit? Since it is patently false, and most masons ARE Christians, I would be very interested in any proof you have for this outrageous statement...

I would guess that most men who become masons go in with good intentions of helping mankind, but whether or not they ever realize it, they are being deceived.

Again, I would love to see any proof of that, given that Masonry, through our various charities, like the Shrine Burn Centers, the Shrine Orthopedic Centers, the Scottish Rite Speech Centers, our college scholarships, Angel Funds, Child ID and other community service efforts GIVE, freely, over $7 MILLION USD per year. So to claim even by inuendo that we do not do good is slanderous, defamatory, and without merit.

the humanist spirit that freemasonary is built around goes against christianity (which doesn't really matter much if you're not a christian).

Really? Would you like to DEFEND HTAT as well? Humanistic? From a group of men that REQUIRE a profession of faith BEFORE a man can join. Froma group that addresses the throne of grace before opening a lodge and before closing a lodge, before eating...

Anyway, this is just my opinion and i wanted to put it out there.

Well, its nice that you are honest about where you are coming from. Its a pity that you have formed your opinions from a lack of informtion...

From what i've seen on ats concerning freemasonary threads, i look forward to the swarm of masons who are going to reply to this and tell me that i'm simply spreading age old lies and imply that the ideas of freemasonry are without flaw

Well, I suspect that I have disappointed you. I am interested in any facts you have to support these positions., or if it is just a "gut" thing... sort of like the sheet wearing folk in the south that strung up blacks and burned crosses because they "knew" blacks were inferior...

Just the facts, my friend.

We agree to disagree and we can throw S**T at each other to no end.
You live in your worlds, I live in mine.
Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.
I guess we will find out sooner or later.

Originally posted by The Merovingian
We agree to disagree and we can throw S**T at each other to no end.
You live in your worlds, I live in mine.
Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong...

Instead of running away from this debate like a little child why don't you bring your "proof" to the table like a man and debate

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by KingSolomon]

Masons are anit-christian.....
Ok, let me think about this one....... I have to believe in a Supreme Being... I placed my hands on the Holy Bible and gave an Oath to God. I was given a Holy Bible when I was initiated. hmmmmmm...... Can you explain how this is anti-christian? When I was a kid, my church never even gave me a bible.

We are just pawns of the illuminati....
Ok, where is the Illuminati... They are just using the Masons as a front. Ok, the Illuminati who does not exist or at least no one has ever heard of recently, are using the masons that have never heard of them, to cover their agenda that no one has ever heard of. So, if they are using masons and the masons have never heard of them, they never do anything using the masons name, they have no real conenction with the masons, Then WHY USE MASONS? It makes no sense. Why not just be a secret society that no one has ever heard of and use EVERYONE? Please explain your logic.. I am obviously thick and cannot. That makes as much sense as saying that we are all reptilians and humans working together. Actually, that makes more sense to me... huh?

Why can`t women join...
Why can`t men join the girl scouts?
Why can`t I join the womens fitness club down the street?
Why is there the NOW (National Org of Women)? Why is there no NOM?
There are many womens clubs around the world. Why do you get upset if there is an organization only for men? (Equal rights...right?)

We do not understand the ceremonies nd their true meanings....
You think we are conjuring spirits or dieties in masonry? Obviously you have no idea about masonry or the symbols in masonry. If you had any idea of the ceremony, you would realize that there is not much to misinterpret.

And before you ask... no, I will not explain the ceremonies... just like the Bishops will not tell me what goes on inside the conclave at the vatican, or the NOW will not let me know what is happening during their business meetings, IBM will not even let me go to a shareholders meeting without buying their stock options and thus becoming a member. Now, why won`t the hospital down the street let me sit in on their staff meetings.. I would certainly like to know everything that is happening at the hospital.

Do I think that all of these organizations are evil because they will not tell me what is going on? How do I know that Hospital is not carrying out sacrifices and giving natural causes of death? Wouldn`t you tell me I am insane if I bring it up? Well think about it...(I am being sarcastic here)...

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by JCMinJapan]

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
... just like the Bishops will not tell me what goes on inside the conclave at the vatican...

I hear they play naked twister.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
... just like the Bishops will not tell me what goes on inside the conclave at the vatican...

I hear they play naked twister.

Only with the ALTER BOYS

Originally posted by KingSolomon
Only with the ALTER BOYS

King Solomon, you shock and disgust me! I would have expected better from you! The word is spelt "Altar," not "Alter."

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by AlexKennedy]

It IS a shame that men who are not born nor taste free-thought promotion in their development as young children, nor objective reasoning capabilities as frought with impressionism or arrogance or just ignorance to the 'POINT!' Speculative objectivism aside, it is just a shame.

You Masonry loving loons need to find something better to do than to push your twisted versions of reality on sane minded individuals. Save your polluted thinking, your getups and your trinkets for Halloween!

What 'proof' do we need to counter your claims and statements?
We in 'the know' can clearly see the workings of the Masonic 'secret society' in today's events and the attempts to bring on the New World Order.

If proof is what you require, then 'prove' to me that there is a God or Jesus!!
After all, don't all good Mason brethren believe in such a being?
I don't see too much proof coming from the Freemasons in this regard. Is it because you guys have your own outer space gods??

Atheist or non-religious types are not allowed membership because those in charge of your 'society' don't want any rational thinking human beings in your ranks. If you can be fooled into believing in God or Jesus then 'they' can fool you into thinking that Freemasonry is a happy fuzzy group of guys out to visit old folk's homes and make donations to the food bank!!

Sure, I don't doubt that 99.9% of you guys are good family types with decent values and good jobs. However, I don't think you know the full extent of the Masonic conspiracy and even if you did, you wouldn't say anyways.

You are obligated to defend the Craft as that is your oath and pledge. This is purely evident in the clever long winded defense of it put forth by a few on this thread. If you acknowledge the 'truth', or if you even know of it, what happens to you? Are you banished, are you the victim of a smear campaign, or worse?

Wilmshurst wrote...."The true inner history of Masonry has never yet been given forth even to the Craft itself."

Some other dude also said "...there are two doctrines of Masonry - one concealed and reserved for the Masters and one for public..."

What about your 'arcanum arcandrum'?
What's going on here"

Ordo ab chao my good buddies!
Now leave us conpiracy theorists alone!
NB - Way to to take one for the team 'Mr. Sparkly Brain'

If you can think KNOWING your only thinking and thus possess no absolute pillar of universal ultimacy in truth proveable unanimously to the universe you are correct, (just a word, sorry..oops also a word) you are mistaken my friend. For every person merely forms opinions and thus speculation is borne of imagination and vagueries of perception.

CAN YOU DEFINE WITH ABSOLUTION EVERY WORD YOU SAID....consider the billions who have lived and will then take any one word and multiply it by every one of their interpretations of that single word, based on every experience in their each individual life with the word as sub-conciously drawn from mind and prove you are correct with YOUR definition, oh, sorry are some not born yet to ask or are deceased not to tell, well that scenario was flawed from start. I challenge your choice to speak for everyone cause I am open-minded enough to say I do: Let each make choice of their own free-will.

Freemen are free to do as they damn well please! What do you do with YOUR spare time. Do you use it wisely, does anyone else care but you...

DEFEND YOUR ENTIRE LIFE BEFORE ALL OF US SO WE CAN KNOW EVERY THING YOU HAVE DONE SO TO KNOW OR SEE OR CHOOSE FOR OURSELVES IF IT IS THAT YOU ARE YOU SO PERFECT YOURSELF!





[Edited on 6/3/04 by Lucifer]

Please dont take offense to what I'm going to say. My intention is not to offend. I am just curious. Why is it that in order to do good you feel you must belong to an organization? Why is it that a good deed isn't as good if it isn't done in the name of an organization or a religion or in the name of God or the Lord? As an individual I choose to act for myself. I think for myself and the good or bad that I do is entirely me and no one else. I dont have to belong to a group to be inspired to do something good for someone else. If I did something good it is because I did it. Not because I am doing the work of God. If I do something bad it is simply because I did something bad and not because the devil is working through me. I am a free thinker. I control what I do and how I act. Good, bad or indifferent I lead my own life. Why be lumped into a group? I feel that when you join an organization whether it be a club or church you lose part of your identity. You lose some of what makes you an individual.

I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

Originally posted by Indy
I feel that when you join an organization whether it be a club or church you lose part of your identity. You lose some of what makes you an individual.
I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

Well, I see your point, but I personally look at it a different way. I am not a joiner by nature. I only have tow memberships in anything.. Masonry and ATS... Yes, ATS is a club... maybe a religion for some. ha ha But, none the less it is a club that you MUST join to talk. What really happens in RATS? Well, I know, but won`t tell the others. haha Nothing evil, yet many want to attain enough points (get promoted to higher rank) to see what is in there. hmmm... sounds familiar huh?

Ok, you have joined ATS.. you already have a membership in a club.. You share your opinions with people of similar interests right? Sometimes debate them as well...... But, do you feel that you have lost your individuality here on this forum? Same things with masonry......

I do not always 100% agree and just follow along ... I met many people I got along with and we have similar intrests and pursuits. I am proud of who I am and that is why I am proud to be a mason.... I am also proud to be a part of this fine forum on ATS. I tell many people what I see and learn here. Never have any regrets. I still have my own ideas and I share them freely. If I do something as a masonic group, it is because I enjoy it. We have a party for orphans here in Japan once a year. We get a few thousand that show up for the two days of games and fun. I volunteer as a mason because I enjoy it and I am very proud. Just last month a orphage had an ice skating trip and as I play hockey I volunteered to go and teach them to skate. I have not lost anything as a free man or an individual. If anything, it has helped me to grow, learn and share interests with others. The exact same things happen here on this board.

So, joining clubs with like minded people and help you grow and experience new and exciting things in life. After all we are all doing it here right? Obviously have similar interests in conspiracies, learning about the stuff we do not know or things maybe not have been told.... Even if we all do not agree ..... I feel we are strengthened IF WE PARTICIPATE and DO NOT just follow the flow of the club we join.

Originally posted by The Joker
What 'proof' do we need to counter your claims and statements?
We in 'the know' can clearly see the workings of the Masonic 'secret society' in today's events and the attempts to bring on the New World Order.

Who is in the know? You are? How about elaborate... Don`t be SECRETIVE now!...

If proof is what you require, then 'prove' to me that there is a God or Jesus!!
After all, don't all good Mason brethren believe in such a being?
I don't see too much proof coming from the Freemasons in this regard. Is it because you guys have your own outer space gods??

What are you talking about? So, you are saying that ALL christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists, .... except athiests are screwed up? That is like saying have athiests PROVE there is NO GOD. Can`t huh? We will all just know when we die... maybe. Wow, you gave a great argument there... NOT

Atheist or non-religious types are not allowed membership because those in charge of your 'society' don't want any rational thinking human beings in your ranks.

DUH.... Masonry has a basic belief in God. Hello McFly.... so can I say I am athiest even though I believe in a God? Could I join the Catholic Church if I was an Athiest? Think about it for a minute second and this answer should come to you....

Now leave us conpiracy theorists alone!

I believe we are just answering questions. No one pushes any of this on anyone. Why post here? Just Trolling? So, people are supposed to just ask questions and Masons cannot answer? YOU are the HOLY ONE that can only answer? So, basically... if we do not answer questions, we are secretive and will not divuldge anything. But, if we do answer then we are just spreading lies.... *knock knock* MCFLY.......

Just a response to the guy who was unsure of what the two quotes from the Nicene Creed.
The first line " I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" means more or less this: At the time in which the creed was written (A.D. 325 was the first councel with the first seven articles and A.D. 381 was when the last five articles were added) there was only one church, so they were saying that they believed in the christian church, and no other religion. Secondly, the other line "I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins" just means that you only need to get baptized once.
That's all.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by KingSolomon
Only with the ALTER BOYS

King Solomon, you shock and disgust me! I would have expected better from you! The word is spelt "Altar," not "Alter."

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Sorry, maybe my finger slipped (or maybe they're not really boys but "Alter-Boys)

Originally posted by zoe_jane
Just a response to the guy who was unsure of what the two quotes from the Nicene Creed.

Hi, I am that guy. Except, I was never unsure about the meaning of those two lines. What I said was, I am unsure if I agree with those two lines. As I quite explicitly said in my message, I do not agree with a single holy catholic and Apostolic church (so I can't say I believe in that line), and I also do not believe that a) any particular type of baptism is required for the remission of sins, nor that b) baptism per se is required for the remission of sins.

Just to make this perfectly clear through repetition: I understand the Nicene Creed to my satisfaction, I simply do not agree with one small section of it!. OK?

wow! Didn't know everyone was so touchy. I only replied to a quote. Way to make a person feel unwelcome. Maybe you should just take things aface value, instead of reading into things too much. I didn't say that you were ignorant, or stupid, or anything like that, nor was I inferring that. I just replied to your post. That's it. You could have replied "thanks, but i do understand blah blah blah" Not everyone is out to bash you.
And if you were the first mason i'd ever spoken to, I think my idea of them would be slightly off, don't you? Thankfully I know that you are not all like that.

And you'll probabally be offended by this so before i go, let me just say that I'm not bashing you, I'm just writing something. That's it.

See, this is the problem with the internet, where you can only read the letters, not understand the tone in someone's voice. The tone I was going for was essentially a version of "Yes, I know... you're the second person to tell me that, and I'm slightly (but not significantly) annoyed at that. To all those others who would like to tell me about the Nicene Creed, please note that I know it allready." Additionally, I should say in my own defense that if you read my original post, you will see that I quite explicitly state what is going on.

As for being a dissapointment as a Mason, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I will, of course, commit suicide post-haste (see... that's clever sarcasm, not meant to injure but merely to josh around... but can you tell? No. That's why the internet is not very good for these kinds of conversations).