Why is it that women and those with no belief or faith in a supreme being cannot join? are these people inherently immoral?

You ask why women and atheists cannot join, and further ask if it is because we feel that these groups are inherently immoral.

Well, I can only answer for myself. For the first part of your question, why can't women join; Its because we are a fraternity. Its a men's organization, a place where men can assemble in fellowship. For myself, I do not see why every organization should be forced to accept women into its membership, especially in a group that is a fraternity.

On a side note, there irregular masonic bodies that allow women, if a woman really feels she needs to be a mason. However, none of these bodies is in any way recognized by real masons, except the Grand Orient of France, which is itself irregular and clandestine.

You asked why an atheist cannot join. All masons take a solemn obligation, three, actually, pledging themselves to certain things, and asking the blessing of god in keeping these promises. An atheist does not, by definition, believe in god, and as an atheist by definition does not believe in a life beyond this one, we feel that his promise is not valid. Further, since Masonry is a fraternity of men that believe in god, an atheist would not be welcome in that body.

We are not a church, it is not our goal to preach to or minister to the world. Our goal is to take good men (it can be argued that, by definition, an atheist is NOT a good man, but lets leave that aside) and make them better men, in service to God, their family, their country, their community and themselves.

As to your last, not allowing women or atheists into the fraternity is in no way a comment on their honor, their integrity, or their value. It is simply a statement of OUR landmarks.

So, I could not join because I don't have faith. What about those with polytheistic beliefs? I understand that there is a belief in god, but Muslim/Jewish/Christian god is nearly identical.

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by elmariachi]

"The majority of Masons today don't have a clue as to the true meaning of their rituals and symbols. And they certainly cannot be called bad people. Misled, yes, and most really are the good natured philanthropists helping their community, that we see outwardly. You see it is not required of initiates to ascend any higher than that of the third degree Master Mason. They know there are another 30 degrees if one wished to continue, but the initiation process is a tedious and drawn out affair (it might take a year to reach the third degree), which the participants, for the most part, are happy it's over with. For them it is good that they not continue. And that's just the way higher initiates, or adepts, like it"

"Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity....an outer organization concealing an inner Brotherhood of the elect...it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum. [defined as 'a secret, a mystery']
~Manly P Hall 33rd degree, Lectures on Ancient, p.433]"

"Masonry makes no profession of Christianity.. but looks forward to the time when the labor of our ancient brethren shall be symbolized by the erection of a spiritual temple.. in which there shall be but one altar and one worship; one common altar of Masonry on which the Veda, Shatra, Sade, Zeda-Avesta, Koran and the Holy Bible shall at who's shrine the Hindu, the Persian, the Assyrian, the Chaldean, the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Mohammedan, the Jew and the Christian may kneel."
[ "The Kentucky Monitor" Fellowcraft Degree p. 95 ]

".... the literal meaning (of the Bible) is for the vulgar only."
[Albert Pike "Digest of Morals and Dogma," p. 166 ]

"What is True to the philosopher, would not be truth, nor have the effect of truth, to the peasant. The religion of many must necessarily be more incorrect than that of the refined and reflected few.. The truest religion would in many points , not be comprehended by the ignorant.. The doctrines of the Bible are often not clothed in the language of strict truth, but in that which was fittest to convey to a rude and ignorant people.. the doctrine."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 14th Degree, p. 224 ]

"The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahweh reversed; for Satan is not a black god.. for the initiates this is not a Person, but a force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of liberty and free will."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," Master Mason / 3rd Degree p. 102 ]

"Masonry is a search for light. That light. That search leads us back, as you see, to the Kabala. In that ancient and little understood (source book) the infinite will find the source of many doctrines; and (he) may in time come to understand the Hermetic philosophers, the Alchemists, all the Anti-papal Thinkers of the Middle Ages, and Emanuel Swedenborg."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 28th Degree p. 741 ]

"All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabala and return to it; everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of the Illuminati, Jacob Boeheme, Swedenborg, Saint Martin, and others is borrowed from the Kabala; all Masonic associations owe to it their secrets and their symbols."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 28th Degree p. 747 ]

"Though Masonry is identical with the ancient Mysteries, it is so only in this qualified sense: that it presents but an imperfect image of their brilliancy, the ruins of their grandeur .."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma Fellowcraft Degree p.22 ]

"Masonry, successor to the Mysteries (Babel, Mythras, Tummuz, Whicka,etc.) still follows the ancient manor of teaching."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma Fellowcraft Degree p.22 ]

"These two divinities (Sun and Moon, Osiris and Isis, etc) were commonly symbolized by the generative parts of a man and a woman; to which in remote ages no idea of indecency was attached ; the Phallus (penis) and the Cteis (vagina), emblems of generation and production, and which, as such appeared in the Mysteries (I believe Masonry is the revival of these). The Indian Lingam was the union of both, as were the boat and mast and the point within the circle." (key Masonic symbols)
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 24th Degree, p. 401 ]

"If your wife child, or friend should ask you anything about your invitation - as for instance, if your clothes were taken off, if you were blind folded, if you had a rope tied around you neck, etc, you must conceal.. hence of course you must deliberately lie about it. It is part of your obligation ..
" [ Ibid p. 74 ]

Question: "what makes you a Freemason ? Answer: My obligation."
[question and answer from the Entered Apprentice/First Degree]

".. binding myself under no less penalty that of having throat cut from ear to ear, my tongue torn out by its roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea, a cable length from the shore where the tide.."
[ from the oath of obligation Entered Apprentice/First Degree ]

".. binding myself under no less penalty than having my left Breast torn open, my heart plucked out, and given to the beasts of the field and fowls of the air as prey."
[from the oath of obligation , Fellowcraft/Second Degree]

".. binding myself under no less penalty that of having my body severed in twain, my bowels taken out and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered to the four winds of heaven.."
[ from the oath of obligation, Master Mason / Third Degree ]

" .. in willful violation whereof may I incur the fearful penalty of having my eyeballs pierced to thru center with a three edged blade, my feet flayed and forced to walk the hot sands upon the sterile shores of the red sea until the flaming Sun shall strike with a livid plague, and my Allah the god of Arab, Moslem and Mohammedan, the god of our fathers, support me to the entire fulfillment of the same."
[ from the oath of obligation, Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine ] ("Shriners")

"You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Masons... and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him.. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but your keeping your obligations."
[ Ronayne, "Handbook of Masonry" p. 183 ]

"We shall unleash the Nihilists and atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirit will from that moment be without a compass (direction), anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the pure light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view, a manifestation which will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
-Albert Pike, on a plan for world conquest, written in a letter to Mazzini dated August 15, 1871.

"..Thirty-third degree Freemason Albert Pike (1809-1891), the man destined to develop the Luciferian Doctrine for the Masonic hierarchy, could not accept the Lucifer and Satan were the same personality. While teaching his beliefs to a select few in the Supreme Council, Pike became the most powerful Mason in the world. Although an obscure general in the Confederate Army during the American Civil War, he was hardly inconspicuous in Freemasonry. From 1859 until his death in 1891, Pike occupied simultaneously the positions of Grand Master of the Central Directory at Washington, D.C., Grand Commander of the Supreme Council at Charleston, S.C., and Sovereign Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry. He was an honorary member of almost every Supreme Council in the world, personally receiving 130 Masonic degrees. Pike also was one of the most physically and morally repulsive individuals in American history. Weighing well over three hundred pounds, his sexual proclivity was to sit naked astride a phallic throne in the woods, accompanied by a gang of prostitutes. To these orgies he would bring one or more wagon loads of food and liquor, most of which he would consume over a period of two days until he passed into a stupor. In his adopted state of Arkansas, Pike was well known as a practitioner of Satanism, Portraits of his later years show him wearing a symbol of the Baphomet around his neck."
-Scarlet and the Beast, John Daniel, vol 1

"Masonry gives rogues and evil-minded characters an opportunity of visiting upon their devoted victim, all the ills attending combined power, when exerted to accomplish destruction. It works unseen, at all silent hours, and secret times and places; and, like death when summoning his diseases, pounces upon its devoted subject, and lays him prostrate in the dust. Like the great enemy of man, it has shown its cloven foot, and put the public upon its guard against its secret machinations."
-CAPT. WM. MORGAN'S ILLUSTRATIONS OF MASONRY, 1827.

"Membership of secret societies such as freemasonry can raise suspicions of a lack of impartiality or objectivity. It is therefore important the public know the facts. I think it is the case that the freemasons said they are not a secret society but a society with secrets. I think it is widely accepted that one secret they should not be keeping is who their members are in the criminal justice system."
- Home Secretary Jack Straw, 1997 Home Affairs Committee England

"It is generally agreed that the biggest single influence in the modern expansion of ritual magic, and the occult explosion in general, in the Western world, was the Golden Dawn. This magical fraternity, founded by Freemasons at the end of the 19th century, developed a complex ritual system with ten degrees of initiation relating to the Cabalistic Sephiroth." (World renown witches, Janet and Stewart Farrar, authors of A Witches Bible Compleat)
- Janet and Stewart Farrar, The Life and Times of A Modern Witch, Phoenix Publishing Company, p. 121.

I could go on and on and on..........

I am glad to see that you have that all important 'PhD', so what you say must be true!! After all, aren't we conditioned to believe that the 'SPECIAL' and the 'EDUCATED' with their fancy titles have all the answers? 2 + 2 = 4, right?

You can spew forth the standard Masonic rhetoric but it is clearly known by those who have avoided brainwashing that the fraternity of Freemasonry is just a puppet organization for the Illuminati. You can deny this to the end of time but I don't think you will convince too many on this discussion board. Isn't that why they sent you here anyways, in an attempt to divert and twist our perceptions of the truth? Isn't this what it says in their brochure? Aren't you acting on behalf of they who really know what is going on? By posting this thread does that make you eligible to move up a degree?

As a Junior Warden (??? degree), do you honestly think that you know all of the hidden agendas set forth by those in the upper ranks? Does your knowledge of the mandate of Freemasonry equate to that of a 33rd degree Mason? Even they are only the peons compared to the real rulers behind the scenes.

Please don't waste your time with 3000 word essays as they don't really change our views on the Masonic society and how it fits in with the secret societies higher up. It's all smoke and mirrors.

If you search the web, it seems like the only people who give versions and comments on the Leo Taxil confession are Masonic websites. You would expect Masons to say that this confession was real and sincere, as it helps to clear their name.

Maybe there is a reason why this confession isn't given much publicity. Maybe this confession was just a load of b.s......

*sigh*

Yet another alter-ego?

As a freemason who is in many masonic orders I believe freemasonary to be one of the pillars on which a free and enlightened society is built and prospers. There will always be people who hate freemasonary and that is their right to do so and there will always be people who are willing to give freemasonary a 'fair hearing'. No doubt you will say that I am part of the'GREAT CONSPIRACY' etc etc. In my opinion I think you are eccentric and that is being polite.

No need for a 3000 word reply to your one.

Brother Gerard

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by Gerard]

What I'm about to say is going to have quite a few quotes in it, because I have to refute the quotes presented by Mr. Sparkly-Brain. If the mods feel I should be penalised for excessive quoting, I will understand.

Just a few notes on how anti-Masons work, how they will gladly lie to you through omission and mis-characterisation. The parts of the quotes left out are bolded, by me. The non-bolded stuff is the quote as Mr. Big Visible Brain would have you believe it. The stuff in italics are my comments, or places where he has added material of his own creation to the quotes.

"What is True to the philosopher, would not be truth, nor have the effect of truth, to the peasant. The religion of many must necessarily be more incorrect than that of the refined and reflected few, not so much in its essence as in its forms, not so much in the spiritual idea which lies latent at the bottom of it, as the symbols and dogmas in which that idea is embodied. The truest religion would, in many points, not be comprehended by the ignorant, nor consolatory to them, nor guiding and supporting for them. The doctrines of the Bible are often not clothed in the language of strict truth, but in that which was fittest to convey to a rude and ignorant peoplethe practical essentials of the doctrine."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 14th Degree, p. 224 ]

SHOCKING! Do you mean to say that people should always be taught the essential truth, but in language they can comprehend?! How dare Masons hold such a view! Why, as a teacher, I'm shocked by the idea that I would explain the basics first before I explain advanced material. (That was sarcasm, BTW).

I'm especially surprised that someone like you, who believes that the world is actually controlled by "Zionists" but that ignoramuses like me don't know about it, would be so strung-up about the fact that some people are have less practical knowledge about religion than others.

"The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahweh reversed; for Satan is not a black god but a negation of God. The Devil is a personification of Atheism or Idolatry.
For the initiates this is not a person but a force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of liberty and free will."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," Master Mason / 3rd Degree p. 102 ]

Note -- italics were included in the original text but - surprise, surprise - Mr. I-stole-my-name-from-the-Matrix didn't include them.

(Here comes that sarcasm again). What, you mean to say that there are people who actually believe that the capacity of human beings to choose good or evil (or in this case, good or atheism and idolatry) is called Free Will, and that this so-called "Free Will" was given to us by God! BLASPHEMY!!!

"Masonry is a search for light. That light. That search leads us back, as you see, to the Kabalah. In that ancient and little understood medley of absurdity and philosophy the infinte sorry, no, the word is Initiate will find the source of many doctrines; and may in time come to understand the Hermetic philosophers, the Alchemists, all the Anti-papal Thinkers of the Middle Ages, and Emanuel Swedenborg."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 28th Degree p. 741 ]

So, wait... studying Kabalah may lead use to understand the writings of people from the Middle Ages who also studied Kabalah. That's a shocker!

"All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabala and return to it; everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of the illuminati, Jacob Boeheme, Swedenborg, Saint Martin, and others is borrowed from the Kabala; all Masonic associations owe to it their secrets and their symbols."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 28th Degree p. 747 no, actually, it's page 744 ]

Well, sir, in this case you actually wrote a proper quote. Amazing! Unfortunately, it doesn't prove anything. What's your point exactly? (Plus, I should note, that while I personally feel that Masonry's symbols are indeed Kabalistic in origin, many (prehaps most) Masons would disagree with me).

Oh, wait, I know what it is... the Kabalah was originally wholly Jewish in character, and you hate Jewish people (oh, sorry, no, only "Zionists")... ah, well, nothing I can do about that.

"Though Masonry is identical with the ancient Mysteries, it is so only in this qualified sense: that it presents but an imperfect image of their brilliancy, the ruins of their grandeur, and a system that has experienced progressive alterations, the fruits of social events, political circumstances, and the ambitious imbecility of its improvers."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma Fellowcraft Degree p.22 got the page wrong again... it's on page 23 ]

OK... so? All Pike is saying here is that Masonry has lost some of its original meaning because people have changed the ritual. Your point?

"Masonry, successor to the Mysteries Guess what? Yes, you're right, this parenthetical remark, contained in italics as well, wasn't in the text, but Mr. Look at my Head decided to pupt it in. By the way, what's "Whicka?" (Babel, Mythras, Tummuz, Whicka,etc.) still follows the ancient manor of teaching."
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma Fellowcraft Degree p.22 ]

Well, well, well, adding material now, rather than just leaving it out... now we're entering the realm of the outright lie. I hope you feel proud of what you've done. By the way, you misspelled "Mithras," "Thammuz," and I believe "Wicca." Maybe you should try, I don't know, learning a little something about the lies you're going to tell before you tell them?

"These two divinities hey, another added parenthetical remark. Looky: (Sun and Moon, Osiris and Isis, etc) the Active and Passive principles of the Universe, were commonly symbolized by the generative parts of a man and a woman; to which, in remote ages, no idea of indecency was attached ; the Phallus here our sadly compulsive guide decides to interpret this word for us, to wit: (penis) and the Cteis and again: (vagina) you are aware, Mr. Head, that Albert Pike would NEVER have used these words, because they were considered rude in his time and place, emblems of generation and production, and which, as such appeared in the Mysteries And another editorial remark added: (I believe Masonry is the revival of these). The Indian Lingam was the union of both, as were the boat and mast and the point within the circle: all of which expressed the same philosophical idea as to the Union of the two great Causes of Nature, which concur, one actively and the other passively, in the generation of all beings: [etc.]" Our guide adds: (key Masonic symbols)
[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 24th Degree, p. 401 ]

So, primitive people worshipped the phallus and Cteis as representatives of the active and passive forces of generation? Wow! What a shocker. By the way, the boat and mast are not Masonic symbols. The point within a circle is, but I disagree with Pike's interpretation here (and by the way, I agree more with Pike than any Mason I know). I see absolutely no problem whatsoever in acknowledging passive and active forces as philosophical ideals. Maybe you do, but that's your own get out. It's a long way from Phallus worship, which I'm sure is the slander you're trying to pin on Masonry now.

"If your wife child, or friend should ask you anything about your invitation - as for instance, if your clothes were taken off, if you were blind folded, if you had a rope tied around you neck, etc, you must conceal.. hence of course you must deliberately lie about it. It is part of your obligation ..
" [ Ibid p. 74 ]

Nope, nothing like this exists on page 74. Page 74 is part of an extended tract on the unjustness of tyrants, and the evil of trying to bend others to an imperial will. I can't find the quote anywhere else, either. Don't remember ever reading it, and I (unlike some non-skull-posessing people I could name), have actually read Morals and Dogma all the way through. So, I'm forced to conclude that this quote is, yes, a big fat lie, unless you'd like to provide an actual page number.

I'm not going to comment on the information about obligation and penalties, since no point whatsoever has been made by our brain-sparking antagonist.

Also, I'm not a Shriner, so I can't comment on their obligation (never heard it) other than to say that Shriners I know have told me that the name of Allah is never mentioned during their obligation.

"You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Masons... and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him.. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but your keeping your obligations."
[ Ronayne, "Handbook of Masonry" p. 183 ]

Well, I've never heard of this book, and I'm my Lodge's Librarian. Hmmm... why not use a book no Mason has ever read to attack Masons? I doubt this book's authenticity, however, because apparently the author does not know the difference between "your" and "you're."

"We shall unleash the Nihilists and atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirit will from that moment be without a compass (direction), anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the pure light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view, a manifestation which will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
-Albert Pike, on a plan for world conquest, written in a letter to Mazzini dated August 15, 1871.

This is a quote from "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Mr. Funny-head, I know you like this book, but I also know that you hate Jews (Oh, I'm sorry... "Zionists") more than you hate Masons. Which is it, then? Is this a quote from a Mason, or an evil Rabbi? Of course, those of use who have smaller brains which are not visible are well aware that this book is a giant fake, but I'm sure whatever "anti-Zionist" information source you have knows better.

"..Thirty-third degree Freemason Albert Pike (1809-1891), the man destined to develop the Luciferian Doctrine for the Masonic hierarchy, could not accept the Lucifer and Satan were the same personality. While teaching his beliefs to a select few in the Supreme Council, Pike became the most powerful Mason in the world. Although an obscure general in the Confederate Army during the American Civil War, he was hardly inconspicuous in Freemasonry. From 1859 until his death in 1891, Pike occupied simultaneously the positions of Grand Master of the Central Directory at Washington, D.C., Grand Commander of the Supreme Council at Charleston, S.C., and Sovereign Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry. He was an honorary member of almost every Supreme Council in the world, personally receiving 130 Masonic degrees. Pike also was one of the most physically and morally repulsive individuals in American history. Weighing well over three hundred pounds, his sexual proclivity was to sit naked astride a phallic throne in the woods, accompanied by a gang of prostitutes. To these orgies he would bring one or more wagon loads of food and liquor, most of which he would consume over a period of two days until he passed into a stupor. In his adopted state of Arkansas, Pike was well known as a practitioner of Satanism, Portraits of his later years show him wearing a symbol of the Baphomet around his neck."
-Scarlet and the Beast, John Daniel, vol 1

So, you back up your baseless slanderous lies about a great man with someone else's baseless slanderous lies? Boy, that sure is fine journalism.

"Masonry gives rogues and evil-minded characters an opportunity of visiting upon their devoted victim, all the ills attending combined power, when exerted to accomplish destruction. It works unseen, at all silent hours, and secret times and places; and, like death when summoning his diseases, pounces upon its devoted subject, and lays him prostrate in the dust. Like the great enemy of man, it has shown its cloven foot, and put the public upon its guard against its secret machinations."
-CAPT. WM. MORGAN'S ILLUSTRATIONS OF MASONRY, 1827.

Masonry has shown it's cloven foot ??? I don't think I even need to refute this one, but what the heck, I will anyway. Once again you are using the lies of an Anti-Mason to back up your own Anti-Masonic lies. Neither of you has any evidence, because there's none to be had, because you are LYING!

"Membership of secret societies such as freemasonry can raise suspicions of a lack of impartiality or objectivity. It is therefore important the public know the facts. I think it is the case that the freemasons said they are not a secret society but a society with secrets. I think it is widely accepted that one secret they should not be keeping is who their members are in the criminal justice system."
- Home Secretary Jack Straw, 1997 Home Affairs Committee England

Hmmm... maybe you think, as many British anti-Masons do, that every Mason should be registered? Or maybe even better, you could round us up and put us somewhere safe, like a camp or something?

I have no comment on the remaining quote, as the idiocy of claiming that the Golden Dawn is sinister, or that Masonry is sinister because Masons founded the Golden Dawn, is quite readily apparent.

By the way, I'm a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason who does regular work for our Soverign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite for this country. He's a devout Lutheran. Last time I visited his house, he and his wife were getting ready to hang up a "He Lives!" Jesus picture thing made by (I believe) one of their grandchildren. But of course, that must have all been for show, right? Really, they're Satanists.

Here's another funny thing... the SGC, the leader of all the 33rd degree SR Masons you find so threatening, recently had two windows in his house smashed by vandals. Weird, isn't it, that being a world-controlling monster he couldn't even stop that.... ah, well, he must have had it done himself, just to make us THINK that he wasn't in control. Though it is kind of funny that he risked his life and that of his wife, because their bedroom window was smashed while they were in bed.

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Merovingian;

You post a whole pack of misquotes and out of context quotes and flat lies... you say you don't what a 3,000 word response. Ok. I won't. I will use . These quotes have endlessly been refuted. Why waste time doing it yet again. You want to believe evil, so you believe evil, regardless of all the truth and evidence to the contrary.

You can spew forth the standard Masonic rhetoric but it is clearly known by those who have avoided brainwashing that the fraternity of Freemasonry is just a puppet organization for the Illuminati.

There is no such thing as the Illuminati, not any more, and that has nothing to do with Masonry, other than some Masons were also members of the original group. It folded, and no longer exists... why beat that dead horse?

You can claim that "everyone" knows such and such, and that proves NOTHING, other than that YOU beleive something to be true. Offer real evidence, not your opinion, unless it is your opinion you are selling?

You can deny this to the end of time but I don't think you will convince too many on this discussion board.

Its a good thing you are wrong on this. You see, the truth is the truth, and the fact that we all say the same thing is just further proof of the truth.

Isn't that why they sent you here anyways, in an attempt to divert and twist our perceptions of the truth?

Actually, no. NO one sent me here. I haven't checked for orders from Grand lodge in some time now... LOL

Isn't this what it says in their brochure?

Which one? My article was written by me, based on some stupidities posted by one Henry Makow...

Aren't you acting on behalf of they who really know what is going on?

Yes, I am posting on MY behalf, one of those masons... and since masonry is masons, we do know the truth, which is why we take the time to refute the inanities posted by folks "opposed" to the honorable and ancient fraternity.

By posting this thread does that make you eligible to move up a degree?

No. I posted because it is the truth. I haven't applied for any of the side degrees as I am really busy as Junior Warden... we are doing so many degrees. I spend time on the internet showing up folks that post the lies and frauds against masonry as recreation and relaxation. I have lost count of all the men that I have helped enter the fraternity as a result of answer scurrilous posts such as yours... you see, men, with minds, good hearts, and a faithful reliance upon divine providence can see right though the lies, and my answers and articles show them the truth, and they flock to join.

I really owe guys like you and Mike and WD and Neo and CMB and Duane et al a real debt of gratitude for all them men you help bring into the fraternity.

So, really, on behalf of Masons worldwide: thanks, bud!

As a Junior Warden (??? degree), do you honestly think that you know all of the hidden agendas set forth by those in the upper ranks?

Yep. I am a member of the secret 34th degree that really rules the world... (Just kidding... you seem like the kind of guy that would really believe that...)

By the way, just for your edification, a Junior Warden is one of the three principle officers of the lodge, it is not a degree...

Does your knowledge of the mandate of Freemasonry equate to that of a 33rd degree Mason? Even they are only the peons compared to the real rulers behind the scenes.

Oh, puh-leeze, do you actually believe that drivel? Higher degrees... sheesh, so you know more about masonry than I do, as a Mason, right? Good lord, man, use your brain as more than an ear spacer.

Please don't waste your time with 3000 word essays as they don't really change our views on the Masonic society and how it fits in with the secret societies higher up. It's all smoke and mirrors.

Actually, Mr. Merovingian, it is the simple truth. I won't waste a lot more time on you, but if you would, since you know so much more about Masonry than I, and since I really want to learn, you want to disassemble my article and show me where I am wrong?

Oh, yeah, and I would really like to know more about this secret hierarchy within Masonry that you know all about and that I as a mason know nothing of... by the way, my grandfather IS a 33rd degreee Mason, in both Scottish and York rites...

Thanks for playing... I think they have your bridge done now, so you can go home.

Alex. I salute you for a fine post.

If we believed people like TM we would have to believe that the world is run from semi-detached houses in suburbia.

I demand my fair share of world domination.

freemasonary may not be devil worship and it may not be an organization controlling the world, but, the heart of it definitely is anti-christian. i would guess that most men who become masons go in with good intentions of helping mankind, but whether or not they ever realize it, they are being deceived. the humanist spirit that freemasonary is built around goes against christianity (which doesn't really matter much if you're not a christian).

anyway, this is just my opinion and i wanted to put it out there. from what i've seen on ats concerning freemasonary threads, i look forward to the swarm of masons who are going to reply to this and tell me that i'm simply spreading age old lies and imply that the ideas of freemasonry are without flaw

I always thought of Freemasonry as the original college fraternity. Surely some super-secret 33rd branch or whatever couldn't be hidden forever, even if they wanted it to be. For example, just look at Scientology -- the big secrets of their organizations have been leaked, and they had money to lose from their secrets getting out!

The ability to keep a secret becomes exponentially harder as you add more people who knows about the secret. Ever tried to keep a secret between you and your closest friends? Tough, isn't it? Now, multiply that by 1 million, and that's how hard it would be to keep a global conspiracy secret for more than a few years...

None of that is necessary, Black Ops. The lie you are spreading is fairly new, actually.

Just wanted to pop in to say that I am a Christian and a Mason, and that Masonry has only strengthened my faith. Perhaps you're suggesting I'm not a "real" Christian? Well, I agree with the Nicene Creed, except for two lines :

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I'm not sure what they're meant to mean, but I don't believe in the sovereignty of any single church (although I am an Anglican), and I'm not sure of the sovereignty of any one (particular) type of baptism. Other than that, I am about as Christian as any other flawed human being (not nearly so much as those non-flawed human beings out there, of course). So, again, what's the problem?

I'm also a humanist, in the same way that Michaelangelo or the Renaissance popes were humanists... how exactly does being a humanist conflict with Christianity?

Originally posted by The Merovingian

As a Junior Warden (??? degree), do you honestly think that you know all of the hidden agendas set forth by those in the upper ranks? Does your knowledge of the mandate of Freemasonry equate to that of a 33rd degree Mason? Even they are only the peons compared to the real rulers behind the scenes.

Ignoring the rest of your misinformed drivel TM, I focus simply on this attempt on this attempted derision towards TD and his Station (yes, Station not Degree, guess you don't know as much as you think you do, but I digress). TD is a Master Mason, and has been duly elected by the members of his Lodge to the Station of Junior Warden, In two years he will preside in the East as Worshipful Master of his Lodge, any attempt to minimize this furthers your well demonstrated ignorance, desist. The consistent obsession with the 33rd Degree continues to amaze me, the thought that my "White Hat Brethren" stood at the helm of a vast empire unknown to the rest of us is... ludicrous. I can only assume that the purveyors of Masonic hate have been beating the drum at a 33 bpm rate and that contributes to this most humorous, and incorrect assumption on your part. Outside of a Scottish Rite Reunion, a 33rd Degree Mason while respected for his achievements in SR, would be as ordinary as anyone else not holding elected or appointed office in that particular (Blue Lodge, Shrine York Rite, etc) bodies organization. Now that this little secret is out, its time to return ragtag environs of Freemasonry watch or whatever pathetic hate-mongering group you call home.


[Edited on 2/6/2004 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by BlackOps13
freemasonary may not be devil worship and it may not be an organization controlling the world, but, the heart of it definitely is anti-christian. i would guess that most men who become masons go in with good intentions of helping mankind, but whether or not they ever realize it, they are being deceived. the humanist spirit that freemasonary is built around goes against christianity (which doesn't really matter much if you're not a christian).

what

I just asked the mason if someone who doesn't have faith in a god can join and he said no.

What is so anti-christian about the concept of helping your fellow man?

No matter what you say or write about freemasonary there will always be people who consider it to be wicked and Satanic. The rituals of freemasonary are open to the public and as freemasons we are at liberty to discuss the philosophical ideas contained within our masonic rituals. In masonary there are well written lectures that the candiate is given. I particularly like the Red Cross of Constantine and the Cryptic Council degrees. Freemasonary is a well established part of Western society and in countries who enjoy political freedoms, freemasonary flourishes. There are people who say that freemasonary is Devil worship and controlled by the few. In my opinion that is wrong but as a freemason I would say that. I suppose these people need help and a different brand of medication. In Britain one government tried to get these people to live in the community. The end result was a failure and often we see people who should be in hospitals rooming the streets. I wonder if any of these people are anti masonic

Brother Gerard

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by Gerard]

AK, i'm not suggesting that you or any other mason is any less of a christian than a nonchristian mason. one of my favorite Bible quotes is don't judge, lest you be judged and i try to make it a point to live by that rule.

what i am saying is that it is my opinion that freemasonry deceives christians by masking some its deeper beliefs with layers of semantics. take for example the practice of not speaking of religion within the lodge. this may seem like no big deal at first, but what it does is promote an attitude among masons of religious indifference. the level of this indifference won't be the same for every person, and some people may be strong enough in their respective faith to be immune to this indifference, but in the end, not everyone has enough faith to avoid this spritiual pitfall. As christians, isn't it our duty to proclaim the word of Jesus and return sheep to his flock? Why then, should we deny this duty for a manmade organization?

as far as the nicene creed goes, I am a Catholic so I agree with the whole thing. let me try and explain what the two lines whose meaning you were unsure of mean (here they are again just for reference):

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

line 1: basically it says that i believe in the catholic church, which was created by Jesus, administered through the apostles as the founding fathers and, to this day, guided by the Holy Spirit.
line 2: by being baptized into christianity i am a christian who is washed clean of original sin, and am able to be forgiven of my sins through the sacrament of penance.

the fact that i am a catholic is another part of the reason that i do not support freemasonry. the catholic church does not support it, and because i do believe in my church and because i realize that there are alot of people out there who know more about this subject than me, i'm going to leave my fath in this subject to those who i consider professionals and whom i trust.

anyway, i hope this clears up my views....i don't want people running around thinking that i think i'm better than everyone, because that's definitely not true!

Originally posted by elmariachi
what

I just asked the mason if someone who doesn't have faith in a god can join and he said no.

What is so anti-christian about the concept of helping your fellow man?

i never stated that helping your fellow man is anti-christian. you don't have to be a mason to help your fellow man. you don't even have to be a christian to help your fellow man to answer your question though, read my previous post.