Will truth destroy your mind?? Mind Guardians: Matrix, Harry Potter and Carlos Castaneda common meme

Last year, in May, was the first time I found someone actually defending the idea of keeping the truth (whatever truth may be) hidden from the public. He stated

"humanity in its wholeness needs a couple of centuries until it will have become matured enough for the truth"

and so I questioned him:

"From where did you get that figure? 200 years?? Humanity deserves lies and shadows because other way everybody heads are gonna explode??"

It was not a very constructive discussion, he was not exactly acknowledging my points. You may check the full discussion as it was held in the forum of this article: Obama review of classified files linked to UFOs

The discussion goes from the bottom to the top; I wrote as Mark and my interlocutor as Shol'va.


Last week, i found one of this persons again in ATS, he opened the Thread Why is disclosure so important for people?
I questioned him on page 3. At least his answer was far more coherent than those of Shol'va.



So I wonder: why is that these people claim that truth will destroy the mind of the normal man???

Lets check an hypothetical scenario. In the movie "The Matrix", like in the "Harry Potter" books, and in the Carlos Castaneda books there is this common meme: there is a world beyond the ordinary everyday world, maybe even containing the ordinary world. Is this an artificial world generated by computer?? Is magical power limited to a set of lucky born people??? can we jump from reality to reality just by the power of our attention????

I would love to know: if someone come by and show you extraordinary probe that any of the previous mention scenarios is real, will your mind be so blown away that it will be left withouth any recovery chance???

The matrix says if you are too old, then yes, you will not be able to recover... H.P. says that the problem is more for the wizards than for you, so they will oblivio your mind... In Carlos Castaneda if you are too old to grab the real deal, then they are able to just make you younger, the only real problem is for your mind to accept the truth so it doesnt matter for the truth to be out there, our mind just will never grasp it.



There is one other common idea that i want to mention: in The matrix we have this hungry artificial IA living from human energy, in H.P. we have the dementors (which most of you I am sure know, feed on human bad emotions), and in Carlos Castaneda we have this full 'brand' of living non-organic beings capable of feed from human energy (very much like in "Monsters Inc") , even more, the very last book "The active side of Infinit" is dedicated to reveal that the dark side of the human condition is keep by a bunch of inorganic beings that feed on human poor-awareness energy. If your ego is making you do silly things, is because you are being tricked into believe that your mind is yours but, according to Carlos Castaneda, is not. The inorganic mind is keeping your conscience low and tasty.

So, it is just an speculation but, there may be a good reason why humanity enemies are trying to convince ordinary people to learn the truth.

*Second Part*

In the article: Lost Symbol Review the author gives a very good reason for the elite to keep the things in the shadows:

"But the greatest affront of The Lost Symbol is it's blatant insult to man's basic democratic right to be informed and to check those in power. Oddly enough, the very principle that the American Masonic empire are based upon. In Brown's absurd universe, the elite have been protecting this ancient knowledge by keeping it from us. Why? Because, according to a posture ridiculed in a role played by Jack Nicholson, "you can't handle the truth". That's right, you don't have the mental fortitude to understand the hidden significance of occult rituals so you need to be lied to. "

I got the feeling that there may be in fact a force looking to convince us we can not handle in truth, when in fact, WE CAN.

Finally, to make really clear that, in my opinion, to know the truth is what we need, let me quote Jesus:

John 8:31-32 "Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

How can one argue for or against 'letting the truth out' if you don't know what the truth is in the first place?

What is the truth that you speak of that would be debatable? don't you need to know what it is that you are debating about before you can debate on it?

Oh sorry, I guess I'm not in the healthcare forum. (hehe)

reply to post by mynameisjuan


Both, Shol'va and ET_MAN are talking about extraterrestrial information disclosure (if you check the links I provided it becomes quite obvious).

But yours is an interesting point. So, let me tell you, I know this little secret, and I wont tell you anything about it, except that I got it. You can go and live your live without knowing what it is, that is good for me.

So Juan, these people are telling me that, and it seems related to disclosure, but as they are not telling, I don't know exactly what truth they may be speaking. We are talking about some knowledge they accept they have and they accept they will not share. And that includes stating disclosure is a very bad idea.




[edit on 15-3-2010 by oshdra]

I don't understand why people do that. I mean, unless they are of a different planetary origin, what makes any of us different? It is our duty, not as Americans, or a specified group of cultural individuals, but as human beings to be responsible over each other to some extent. If there is some deep, earth shattering secret they posses that is to much for us ... well? war is upon the horizon ... we are dealing with and increase in natural disasters, corrupt leadership. If this "secret" is of a positive nature, then why not deal bits and pieces? In this ... I am quite baffled.


[edit on 15-3-2010 by Simply J]

Even in the bible we weren't meant to eat from the tree of knowledge.

A lot of people who hold unconventonal beliefs close to their hearts for one reason or another think that the reason that other people don't agree with them is that "they can't handle the truth." The reality of the situation, though, is that often times these unconventional beliefs are absurd, or are so extraordinary that most people would require something very convincing in order to believe them. The people who hold the unconventinal beliefs don't like this(not everyone obviously, but most of them who say people don't believe because they can't handle it). The unconventional beliefs are important to them, and they want to be right about them very badly. They have to come up with a way to reconcile the fact that most people think they are crazy with the fact that they think they are right. Blaming it on the other persons "inability to handle it" is an easy way to do this.

Just look at how many people used the "they/you can't handle the truth" excuse in this thread. The theory proposed in the thread is completely absurd and no one in their right mind would believe it. Yet, there are people who believe it. These people dismiss any reasonable rejection of their ideas as an instance of weakness in their detractors. "Their minds just can't handle what I'm saying, I'm still right."

It's an important defence mechanism. Believing something very bizarre is hard to do, because so many people will tell you you're wrong. In order to not believe them, you have to convince yourself of some reason that it is actually them who is wrong. This idea that they can't handle what you're saying is a way to dismiss any argument they make, and a way to feel good about your own ability to handle the truth.

The whole notion is of course absurd. People held mystical beliefs for a much longer time than they have held reductionist materialist beliefs a.k.a. the modern western scientific world view. You want to talk about people believing some crazy stuff; look at how everyone explained everything before science. People believed in spirits and gods and demons and all the rest for thousands and thousands of years. These mystical beliefs are way out there. If believing that wierd stuff was true were hard, it wouldn't have happened so much back in the day. There's no reason to think that there is something inside people that can't "handle" wierd ideas, it's just that in modern times people are educated enough to separate our reality from fantasy with decent accuracy.

Some people might say that it is a radical change in worldview that people are resistant to, not holding a "wierd" worldview itself. There might be something to this on an individual level. It seems like people have a hard time being convinced that a belief which is important to them is wrong. But on the other hand, many of us used to think santa was real, and other magical stuff, then when we find out that stuff was made up we didn't have a meltdown. Also look at how much the worldview of society has changed; we have gone from a completely magical, mystical, earth is at the center of the universe and the king was appointed by god way of thinking to something very different. Clearly major changes in belief systems can happen.

I guess there probably are some beliefs that are so important to people that they couldn't easily accept them as being false. People are likely to argue to the point of irrationallity and persist in these beliefs even when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but what else can they do? What happens to you when you "can't handle" something? What about people who find out they are adopted, or that they're spouse is gay, or something like that? It sucks, but no one literally explodes.

I think it's probably true that people are unlikely to give up beliefs which are important to them. But, I think that the important moral of the story is this:

The situation is not that crazy people have it right, and that saine people can't handle the truth. The situation is that crazy people will come up with nearly any excuse in order to convince themselves that they are not crazy.

I don't think that there are many major revelations about the nature of reality that have yet to be revealed to the weak minded public. . . what secrets are the loons keeping away from us for our own good?

I don't think much would change if it turned out UFOs were ET spacecraft, or that we lived in one of an infinite number of universes, or that consciousness could be simulated by a computer. Cosmological stuff and quantum physics doesn't seem to have much of an effect on the public. The stuff that remains to be discovered and which is turning out to be fairly strange is stuff that most people don't really care about.

Why kind of facts might have a destabilizing effect on the populace?

If people are really truly resistant to an idea, they just won't believe it. They won't freak out.

Originally posted by Nventual
Even in the bible we weren't meant to eat from the tree of knowledge.

Yes but what does that really mean? There are many possible interpretations. A very possible interpretation is that eating from the tree of knowledge symbolizes developing the 'ego', a operating system for navigating within a perceptual world of duality, space and time. The tree was called the tree of 'the knowledge of good and bad' (duality) and the immediate consequence was a sense of personal responsibility and guilt and alienation from 'God' (Adam 'realized' he was naked for the first time after eating. Of course he had been naked all along, it just wasn't perceived as a problem until he had an ego)

What I'm saying is, I think there is a better case for the not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad being a symbol for mankind's 'fall' in becoming limited to egocentric, dualistic perception, rather than a warning against knowledge of what lies beyond that - or as Castaneda might have put it, becoming lost in the perceptive world of the Tonal and losing touch with the Nagual. Which is to say, knowledge of this world was what was 'forbidden', not the one underlying it, which is now obscured.

OP, with regard to the question of would the truth destroy your mind - well, if the ultimate truth is that the 'ego' - you - 'the mind' is an artificial construct created to navigate within a perceptive dualistic world, then yes, directly discovering that this 'you' is false would necessarily destroy it, at least as being 'you'.

If so, then quite literally 'you' can't handle the truth. But the good news would be You were never 'you' in the first place LOL.


[edit on 15-3-2010 by Malcram]

Originally posted by oshdra
But yours is an interesting point. So, let me tell you, I know this little secret, and I wont tell you anything about it, except that I got it. You can go and live your live without knowing what it is, that is good for me.

So Juan, these people are telling me that, and it seems related to disclosure, but as they are not telling, I don't know exactly what truth they may be speaking. We are talking about some knowledge they accept they have and they accept they will not share. And that includes stating disclosure is a very bad idea.

First, I liked the Matrix, Castenada, Harry Potter, and ideas about a reality we don't know about, it's great science fiction.

But if somebody says: "I know this little secret, and I wont tell you anything about it, except that I got it." My first reaction is that they are either:

a. making that up in which case they can laugh at me if I'm stupid enough to believe their hoax, or,

b. delusional, in which case they really believe they know something important when in fact it's really just a fantasy

Now maybe there's a 3rd option:

c. They really do know something and they aren't delusional

Which I highly doubt, but, even if that's true, if they aren't going to tell me what it is, why should I waste even 5 seconds worrying about their claim?

We do know some things now that could fit this description to some extent, like some portions of some populations have been experimented on in less than ethical manners at times. I suppose there were Germans living in Nazi Germany that didn't know that their government was secretly killing many Jews, as an example of a truth that someone else knew about that they didn't know so it can happen.

But if someone tells me they know a secret, but they just can't tell me what it is, I don't see any rational alternative but to just ignore that comment.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

First, I liked the Matrix, Castenada, Harry Potter, and ideas about a reality we don't know about, it's great science fiction.

The metaphors are fiction, but a 'reality we don't know about' as in, don't usually perceive, is already science fact. There is indeed an underlying 'reality' quite unlike the 'reality' of our perceptions and much that is there which is beyond our range of perception. It's also possible that this range can be extended and that some people have such a greater range already. How far this will go and how much more we will discover about the world beyond our perceptions is fascinating to consider. But we know it's there.



[edit on 15-3-2010 by Malcram]

Well, it's interesting to note that some of you think it's important that we make truths known even if we think they will have terrible implications. Why would this be? Is truth more important than literally anything else? Not to most people. Most people would rather be happy than be right. The point of being a person is not to just form as many true beliefs as possible and call it a day. If people can live in ignorance of something that would destroy their lives, wtf is anyone to tell them that knowing the truth is literally the most important thing?

Unless the specific information is somehow important, it does not have inherent value just because it is true. Would anyone want to know some useless fact that was true but which made society crumble or made people miserable? Of course not, why would you?

Can anyone honestly say that they would rather hear a useless true fact that would lessen their quality of life than just live on in blissful ignorance?

I think that the fact that something is true is only important if the information is somehow of value. Truth attached to useless stuff doesn't do much for people. If it doesn't make anything better at all and it in fact make things worse than it's not something you have a duty to reveal. We're not truth gathering automatons, we're trying to live tolerable lives as human beings.

I agree that science and the pursuit of knowledge and understanding the universe is an important pursuit. But, this information is not useless, I want to understand the universe and knowing facts about it helps me in this end, even though I can't necessarily use it these facts for anything. People desire to know certain things which they cannot use, but this information is valuable because it satisfies a deep curiousity. I'm not sure that science produces any truely harmful information.

Can information even be harmful? Is the idea of a harmful and useless truth even meaningful? Could such a thing even exist in principal?

It seems like some information could certainly be harmful to certain people, but it seems like in those cases the information is only harmful when other people have it. I'm not sure whether or not there is any such thing as information which it is harmful to know. But, for the sake of argument, if there were such a thing as useless harmful information I wouldn't be on a crusade to make sure every knew it until I spent some serious time weighing the value of truth indepently of the value of the information itself. I would need to try to compare the importance of truth to the impotance of individual happiness, or the value of civilization, or whatever thing I would be giving up in order to know the truth.

To be honest, part of the 'truth' has already been uncovered.
Well we've taken the first few steps anyway.

We now know that we're just a speck within a seemingly infinite universe filled with black holes.
In 3 billion years our galaxy will collide with the Andromeda galaxy.
In two trillion years from now we won't be able to see the universe since expansion will have moved everything too far away.
After that the big freeze will destroy everything, everywhere.

These truths are hard enough to digest, and are probably just the beginning.

I feel that next will be the discovery of the multi verse, or something similar. The pants crapping notion that there are an infinite amount of universes.

When you think about it, isn't all that enough to kind of make you freak out?

Rather than chasing shadowy illusions, time is better spent looking at and discovering true reality via science because in my opinion that's just as scary.

[edit on 15-3-2010 by T0by]

Originally posted by Nventual
Even in the bible we weren't meant to eat from the tree of knowledge.

That is the work of humanity's oppresors' brainwashing skills. They don't want you to know the truth, because the truth is that you are more powerful that you can even imagine at this stage of the game.

You hold the key to all of the secrects. It is all inside you, waiting for you to search for it. And by searching I don't mean searching in churches or classes, I mean searching inside yourself. You are pure consciousness creating realites to know your self ....

You are a divine multi dimensional being. You have your past, your present and your future potentials coursing through your consciousness at every moment, because every moment is right now. You can choose where to focus your thought, and you are there. Not physically, because the physical is only a minute particle of what you are. You are the physical and the non physical, focus on the empty space around you and know that you are that space and you are the physical matter of your body. You are everything. And with everything comes the power of controlling your reality. .... or, creation.

... now isn't it obvious why 'they' want to keep you so dependent on listening to their stories? Humanity could have a hard time handling the truth, though, because this truth makes you realize just how much responsibility it holds.

reply to post by oshdra


My hunch is, if the absolute truth of it all hit you're ears and you're brain made any sense of it, it would be really hard on you're physical body. Often people faint under duress. Some would probably die if they "saw the face of God" so to speak.

reply to post by oshdra


The Freakingest Truth:

YOU ARE GOD!

Second Freakingest Truth:

YOU ARE DEAD!

And this truth goes back to Krishna and Jesus.
"I and the Father are One."JC

But nothing to worry about. As Twain put it;90 percent of the people would rather die than think.

In my opinion, the scariest truth I could uncover is that when we die we cease to exist completely.

Originally posted by T0by
In my opinion, the scariest truth I could uncover is that when we die we cease to exist completely.

That wouldn't really be scary though. It's literally nothing. Was it so bad before you were born? Of course not, you didn't know the difference. Same thing when you're dead. There won't be any "you" to have any idea, so it can't possibly be bad. Enjoy life now, but once it's gone there's no chance that you will miss it.

Originally posted by OnceReturned

Originally posted by T0by
In my opinion, the scariest truth I could uncover is that when we die we cease to exist completely.

That wouldn't really be scary though. It's literally nothing. Was it so bad before you were born? Of course not, you didn't know the difference. Same thing when you're dead. There won't be any "you" to have any idea, so it can't possibly be bad. Enjoy life now, but once it's gone there's no chance that you will miss it.

Theres two things scary about it.
a) The thought of nothingness, being cast into oblivion. Isn't it a scary thought?
b) For me, it would highlight a certain purposelessness of the universe.
If there is no afterlife, there is no real meaning of life.
The universe is a duality of the organic and inorganic. Living and nonliving.
For the living to have no meaning means the nonliving parts may also have no meaning. Everything would have no meaning.

I like to think the beautiful orchestration and symphony of the universe does have some kind of meaning. I don't really see how it can't.

Not to mention it's not really possible for people to make the most of their life if born into extreme poverty, like a lot of people actually are.

But I suppose these feelings are too human and subjective and have little place in the universe. Maybe.


[edit on 15-3-2010 by T0by]

OK, all I really want to know is:

If the people who already know these secrets still have their heads attached and are still sane (well at least not gibbering idiots) then what gives them the idea that the rest of us can't handle it??

It's just an excuse, they don't want us to know anything.

.

it is indeed a lot of crap, why else would we have star trek?

number one, engage!