The True Threat of the Burqa

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by zilch

 

Yeah that's a good one but when I visited Morocco via the Peace Corps I went to the most traditional, most isolated Berber village in Morocco.

North or South of the Sahara my friend?

Flat lands, the plains or desert, or the mountains?

If mountains which ones the Atlas or somewhere else?

Considering what you mention in this post I find it really strange that you too having spnt time there and getting to know the people, would give a Girlfreind a Book on the benefits of wearing full Islamic dress in a culture that you know, and have witnessed do not bother with them, and would make her more "westernised" or out of place than she would be going there as normal.

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Well you might have noticed that my recommendation of "Beyond the Veil" has been misinterpreted a couple times at least on this thread. Yes that book recommends the veil for Islamic females but does some from a feminist perspective!

Sure it's hard to understand -- but I think "Beyond the Veil" is an awesome book and there's already been couple pro-veil females posting in reply (one thinking I'm against the veil....). haha.

My Muslim friend from Morocco insists that Islam is the most advanced religion -- and I agree -- why? Because of something I call the "tantric trajectory of technology." - Yeah I know it's a lot of jargon and I have a blog with all my research -- naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com...

But essentially the whole science versus religion thing is a scam -- science IS the religion of our day -- and science arose from monasteries. In other words religion teaches people to, before puberty, sublimate their lower body energy so that they have more brain power to focus on practical technological solutions for civilization.

Now -- don't get me wrong -- I'm all about the Berber women! haha. But humanity has a whole has been Westernized -- and the Judaic cultures -- hell Brahman and Abraham are connected as I hinted at with my "Suns of God" link... that author btw is very much anti-Islam but she's anti all Sun God religions....

O.K. but she's way into science as the future -- and the fact is, again, that when young people can focus on the mind for solving technical problems this in turn means not focusing on sex.

I'm from Minnesota which has a strong Islamic subculture now since it's the largest Somalian refuge community. I have great respect and admiration for the Somalians.

It sort of reminds me of the Berber culture -- Somalians were invited to the Chinese Royal Court back in the 8th C. a.d. -- there's a long history of Somalian contact with India, China, etc.

And so the tribal culture of Somalia is merged in with Islamic culture -- but, of course, due to the neocolonial attack on Somalia -- ironically it was Minnesota-based Cargill which undermined Somalian farmers!!

So, anyway, whether a female wears a burqa or not is a personal choice in the Somalian community -- and some are very adamant about being "traditional" -- but this is not traditional as much as it is the right to be religious because it enables more intellectual freedom.

This is a great irony -- that the ability for women to focus their minds on intellectual pursuits makes wearing a burqa advantageous. The traditional Muslim schools are a great educational force for females!! Because the females are taught to use critical thinking, to prioritize information and to analyze abstract arguments, to learn another language, and to have strong morals, etc.

Now does this mean that Somalian culture isn't about fun? I mean Somalians still have an amazing culture of fun with dancing and poetry -- classical poetry -- and great big healthy meals -- and a traditional economy of apparel, like India -- beautiful textiles that are bright and charming.

Anyway compare this subculture of Minnesota with the outrage against Islam in Europe. Sure there's been some scandals in Minnesota -- and largely due to racism or bigotry or xenophobia, etc. and just the culture shock of secular U.S. lifestyle -- not to mention that the economy is in a depression. Racism always escalates when economics goes bad -- that's well proven. And of course females are the scapegoats.

Speaking of which -- camel is the preferred Somalian food but goat is more common since importing camel is too expensive.

The Greek word for goat comes from the word for tragedy -- and the Sahara was GREEN in around 3,000 BCE -- but the goat has turned the sahara into desert.

So all these monotheistic religions are spreading desertification because unlike the Berbers -- the monotheistic religions are repressed and don't recycle their #!

Civilization is basically an inept attempt of females to avoid rape. I know that sounds insanely simplistic -- but I mean it - compare chimpanzees to pygmy bonobo primates. There's a very basic physiological -- psychophysiological difference in matrifocal cultures with a strong tradition of trance dance healing.

Consider the Zar healing in Sudan -- and even in Somalia -- it's what women do when they are desperate for emotional healing - stress that destroys the body.

This same problem exists in the West which is why yoga is becoming so popular for Western females -- how to deal with the deep psychophysiological problem of men who are constantly promoting stress against females -- if not physical then emotional abuse.

Yet civilization marches on. And so does technology -- and so Islam by being the cutting edge of providing females with the means to escape the direct physical "advances" of males -- enables females to better learn the cutting edge technology in order to further protect themselves from men.

Men who on the basic psychophysiological level do not know how to relax -- and therefore are ruled by fear, anger, worry, sadness, and over-excitement.... the ancient matrifocal trance dance does solve this problem.

But in the mean time we have civilization -- and I'm all for veiled Islamic females being the cutting edge of science and moral education.

And Western females who do submerge themselves in Islamic culture -- who marry into it.... well I tend to think that they too will come out of the experience with even stronger, more powerful tools to protect themselves -- whether it's advancing laws against domestic abuse or similar problems.

reply to post by drew hempel


Thanks for you thoughts, and links information.

Some of your ideas are interesting on science and religion/culture. Something for me to explore.

I certainly will look at this, and may get the book to. It would be an educational read, to see it from the perspective of the author and people within it.

I am still however very interested in the following:

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by zilch

 

Yeah that's a good one but when I visited Morocco via the Peace Corps I went to the most traditional, most isolated Berber village in Morocco.

North or South of the Sahara my friend?

Flat lands, the plains or desert, or the mountains?

If mountains which ones the Atlas or somewhere else?

Kind Regards,

Elf

Edit to add on your mentioning of the difference between Bonobo Chimps and Coomon Chimps, and the extrapolation to human cultures I am sure you will like some of the contributions and info on this thread:
Humans Closest & sex mad relative under threat of Extinction

[edit on 15-3-2010 by MischeviousElf]

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Oh if I only knew! Let's see if I can track this down....

www.youtube.com...

Hmm no

innocentablogged.blogspot.com...

Nope ....

www.peacecorps.gov...

Nah --

It was in the South of the country in the mountains -- not sure as my friend completely guided me.

Yeah this has to be it -- the Agoundis Valley sounds familiar and the description is right:

www.faculty.fairfield.edu...

Well that village is not as remote as the one I was in -- but it seems to be in the same region -- but not sure.

Yeah apparently known of these Peace Corps blogs can actually say the name of the town they live in for security reasons:

markscafe.wordpress.com...

I am in the province of Errachidia, in a town of about 7,000 people in the eastern High Atlas Mountains. My town, henceforth referred to as Mitown (again, due to security, I can’t mention the real name of my town), is nestled in a valley between two mountain ranges.

reply to post by drew hempel


There is something that they grow and that area is very well known for it. It comes from a certain type of tree, and is expensive. The Berbers have been cultivating it for hundreds of years, and once you have seen them by the river at the bottom, it is a sight that is not forgettable. The taste too is quite amazing.

What type of tree and product do you remember from that part of the Atlas and that valley?

The most remote and lost almost berbers are a long long way away in the EAST near algeria.

The Lost Berber Villages of Eastern Morocco and Western Algeria, by Richard I. Lawless © 1972 Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland.

The Truth

The thing they do to the trees in all the valleys in that part of the Atlas range is unmistakable from a very long way away, what is that? you know by the river bed?

Intriguing,

Kind Regards,

Elf

Elfedit to remove personnal attack back on topic.

[edit on 15-3-2010 by MischeviousElf]

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Thanks for the link -- here's what I wrote:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So anyway the government had just put a road in to this Berber village -- this was in 1997 -- and so it was thought that within 5 years their traditions would be lost.

I was just visitng for about a month to Morocco back in 1997 and traveled all over but I was just a passive observer! haha. No I've never owned a camera. I'm a bit of a luddite -- I did have some photos from Morocco or maybe just saw some at one point. I know there was a photo of one of the women from the Berber village -- yes I think I had that for a while. I don't have any photos anymore.... The peace corps volunteer job was to help herd the wild sheep -- which she did on occasion. She said she was going to extend her stay because she loved it so much -- and she was in traditional Berber clothing, etc. -- homemade!

So I was just reported what the peace corps volunteers told me. Yeah I was just guessing at to the location -- sorry I couldn't help you out more. Still I appreciated going through those peace corps blogs. I think how the one guy admits his official job is "cultural exchange" which means no matter what his assignment he can just go to social gatherings and hang in cafes for his work. haha.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Actually my friend told me about those trees and I looked it up before -- the name slips me now but I'll track it down.

All I can tell you is that there were no noticeable tree orchards -- that's when when that one link mentioned pomegrantes I knew right away that where he was it is not as remote as this village I went to.

Oh yeah it's argan oil -- I remembered because the goats climb the trees to eat it!!

www.dallasnews.com...

Originally posted by aristocrat2
So if you were sent by your job to live in Switzerland, you'd be happy to wear a ski mask all day?

If my job asked me to go to the middle east, I would follow the rules there.

If wearing a ski mask was required in Switzerland, I would wear the mask.

When I worked in construction, I wanted to go to the middle east, because Saudi jobs paid crazy money, but because I was female, I could not go. Women are not allowed to operate vehicles there, and part of my job was to run a back hoe. So I did not go there, nor try to force the issue, even though it would have been very financially advantageous for me to make the kind of money MEN could earn there.

If your company wants to send you to a country with different rules than you enjoy following, you can request not to be sent, or you can quit. What you cant do is expect the whole culture of a country to change to suit you.

Covering the face is not a religious requirement in Islam. They are not having their religious freedoms tampered with, they are having their personal and cultural customs tampered with. We also outlaw polygamy and marrying 9 year olds, and I dont see a bunch of people arguing that they should be allowed to practice those customs here.

Even if the veil was required by their religion, I would still feel that it is right for us to say, "no veils in public places." Not because I am terrified of terrorists bombing stuff, but because it is our custom not to walk around with our faces covered in public places except on Halloween, and even that will only get you so far. Try wearing a Halloween mask into a bank, holiday or no.

reply to post by drew hempel

But essentially the whole science versus religion thing is a scam

Yeah, for the people who choose religion.

With science you get computers, giant screen televisions, refrigerators, indoor plumbing, the ability to travel around the planet in a short time, vacation cruises.

With religion, you get the false belief that spending large chunks of your life praying to some god with pay off in the after life.

Personally, I'm not seeing bliss behind those eyes over the veils.

Well, good luck with the evolution of Islam. Maybe you will actually morph into a religion of peace, kind of like the Catholics, but hopefully better, and least not like the Jehovah Witnesses.

I can see it now.

Knock knock knock.

Me -Hello?

1st Muslim - How you heard the word of Allah?

Me - Oh Jesus, er Mohammad.

2nd Muslim - Please don't use our prophets name in vein.

Me - Sorry, well, come on in, there's nothing good on TV.

1st Muslim - Thank you

Me - Would you like a beer?

second Muslim - sure

first Muslim- we can't

Me - don't worry your wives won't know.

first Muslim - but we can't go around to peoples homes with beer on our breath.

Me - Well, if you are going to go to the Mexican guys house next door, I recommend you at least bring a six pack.

second Muslim - I told you it would be a good idea to go through the mobile home park.

first Muslim - What kind of beer do you have?

reply to post by poet1b


Here's some "science is religion" books in case you want to stretch your mind a bit:

www.wnyc.org...

God In The Equation: How Einstein Became the Prophet of the New Religious Era By Corey Powell Free Press Copyright © 2002

www.amazon.com...

Noble explores the religious roots of Western technology by linking today's secular technophilia with the ancient Christian dream of humanity's redemption. Noble argues that, historically, the most powerful technological advances (Newtonian physics, the engineering profession, space exploration) have been driven by explicitly spiritual and humane ambitions, but that the last several decades have brought a new kind of technology that is impatient with life and unconcerned with basic human needs.

www.amazon.com...=ntt_at_ep_dpt_6

If you are familiar with Noble's thesis this is a great overview of the influence of religion (in particular Christianity) over history, with emphasis on the religious roots of Capitalism, free markets, and technology.

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268715739&sr=1-3

Fire in the Mind: Science, Faith, and the Search for Order by George Johnson

www.scribd.com...

And here's my Actual Matrix Plan expose which gives a summary of my "science is religion" schtick:

nonduality.com...

reply to post by drew hempel


Yeah, well, you can twist anything into a religion if you want to, but that doesn't change the fundamental of the original school.

Even military conquest can be turned into a religion, Islam is a good example of this, with the whole going to heaven if you die facing your enemy concept.

[edit on 16-3-2010 by poet1b]

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by drew hempel

 

with the whole going to heaven if you die facing your enemy concept.

It's simply a perversion (which, in my book refers to a materialistic understanding) of the allegory of facing and emerging victorious over yourself as the enemy. Subjugation of women is also such a perversion of the will, or more generally, the masculine aspect of the mind attaining mastery over worldly desire, or more generally, the feminine aspect of the mind. It's all a very convenient form of control, for those who really hold the power, and knowledge is power.

That's how the real mysteries are locked into those texts. It's best to know they were corrupted except for those with the eyes to see.

Much like the Rockefeller Johns were to eugenecists and the Al Gores are to climate change scientists, such are the kings to the sages. Those in control of the money and the militaries, in their ignorance of matters outside their domains, who may feel a need for atonement or to maintain a certain social order, are vulnerable to the vagaries and malicious influence of those in the know. The wise ones, who may in fact be charlatans, lacking monetary and military resources themselves but possessing knowledge and expertise, use these rich and powerful, yet still foolish, individuals to provide the muscle for their own agendas.

That, in a nutshell, it what is really happening.

reply to post by EnlightenUp


You can be your own worst enemy, or your own strongest ally.

What is the formula for successful religions, 90% truth, 10% lies, or something like that.

Some poster claimed that the veil protects women from rape. Now that is a lie, if anything, it encourages rape.

By forcing women to hide their faces, they are deprived of their humanity. So easy to be cruel when you don't have to look at their faces.

There is nothing good about the burqa, it deprives women of their humanity, it is a symbol of oppression, it should not be tolerated in Western culture.

Well th eproblem is that the Burqua has been freely worn in the UK and in Europe. We have a liberal tradition. Banks have the right to request people not obscure their faces whilst entering their premises and they are perfectly right to do so.

If moslems women choose to wear burqas that is their right. I believe in the concept of consenting adults... Many women claimit is their decision.

A case can be made about men wearing kilts. The kilt is not as old as people think.

Europe has hitherto had a tendency to be very liberal in terms of religious freedom.

I am no fan of religous bigots, or my way or the highway people. I also hate what has happened to the joy of flyings..

Strategically if there are laws against wearing facial coverings then I for one would comply. Whenever I am in the USA I am careful to avoid breaking any laws. It is basic respect for the law.

Originally posted by Tiger5

If moslems women choose to wear burqas that is their right. I believe in the concept of consenting adults... Many women claimit is their decision.

"Rights" are derived from the state. So if the state says, "no burqa" then it isnt their right.

Like it or not, video surveillance is a fact of life in many industrialized Western nations. Wearing a Burqa thwarts that technology. An argument could be made that having cameras everywhere violates ALL of our rights, perhaps, but that isnt the argument being made by Muslims. They are not saying "this practice violates all citizens rights," they are saying "we deserve an exemption from this practice in the form of a right to wear concealment in public."

And, I have little regard for almost ANY religious group who crys "freedom of religion" because although our governments allow them an unheard of historically amount of freedom, many of these same gruops lobby ceaselessly to remove the other freedoms allowed by that same government to the secular.

Originally posted by Tiger5
A case can be made about men wearing kilts. The kilt is not as old as people think.

I guarantee you, if a person is walking in public with their kilt pulled up over their head, they will be approached by the police and that will stop. Besides, a kilt worn properly covers nothing video surveillance normally uses for identification. We dont typically take mugshots of one eyed Willys.

Here's a new documentary on Morocco and kicks off with a heated discussion between females about covering the head:

www.linktv.org...

reply to post by drew hempel


The reason the young woman gives for wearing the head scarf says it all.

"I will not get harrassed by the men in the streets"

She must wear the burqa to prove to her dad that she is a good girl.

This clearly implies that any girl who does not cover herself is not a good girl.

This is why it is a symbol of conflict, that only serves to create cultural divisions.

Ban the burqa and the headscarf.

Men caught harassing women for not wearing this stuff should be put in prison for lengthy prison terms.

reply to post by poet1b


Yeah my girlfriend was SPIT ON by a teenage male in Marrakech -- why? Blonde -- no head covering.