What would happen to our society without laws or law enforcement?

Ok, I need a break from the earthquakes, time to get philosophical.


First of all I would like to start by saying (I can NOT stress this enough), this is NOT a hate thread.


I have many family members and friends in law enforcement and am a strong supporter. Having said that, I am always open to a good, clean debate...but not name calling or posts that are only done so for the point of spreading hate. Any posts that are derogatory or flaming I will notify the MODS immediately to have them reviewed. I am sick of this trend lately and that is not the point of this thread.

Okay...done with the disclaimer. Let's get down to it.


I was driving down the street the other day, and as I often do, looked down at my speed and let off the gas. I was approaching forty in a 35 MPH zone. I glanced in my rearview mirror (again out of habit) just to make sure there wasn't a cop behind me to have caught me in my moment of distraction before going back to the posted speed limit.

I then laughed at myself. I know every cop in my town and most of them, first of all, would never even pull someone over for going less than five over, and if they did it would only be to give a warning to slow down. ( unless you were an unlicensed driver or had warrants ) It made me start thinking about how our society as a whole and myself in particular, modifies our behaviors simply because of the threat of the consequences for breaking the law. For example, if there was not a posted speed and I could go as fast as I wanted, how would I drive? Would I be reckless? How many accidents would I have been in by now compared to the one minor fender bender I've experienced?

I know the short answer for me personally would be that I would drive a lot faster than I do now, probably faster than I should, but not dangerous. I am what I would call a very law-abiding citizen with a VERY clear understanding of what is wrong and right. The worst I have ever done is gotten a speeding ticket and I have an extremely strong conscious. I once stole a pack of gum when I was about 5 years old. It weighed on me so much that I finally confessed and went back to the store and apologized. Never done anything like it again. So it makes me very scared to think of what the OTHER people in this world would do if there weren't any laws....or more importantly, law enforcement.

I bring this up, because I have noticed a very disturbing trend lately of those that shout to get rid of all law enforcement. Now, I do not want to debate that issue, or the reasons WHY you think it should happen. I want to debate what would happen to our society AFTER. It seems that in our larger cities we are always teetering on the edge of violence. No, our laws are no where near perfect, and our execution of them is sometimes poor, but how do you propose we maintain any kind of decorum without our civil and social laws and the enforcement of said laws?

I will tell you what I think would happen: complete and utter mayhem and chaos. I think of the teenage boys that live down the street and how they are barely reined in now only because of the threat of being jailed. What would they do if that threat or consequence were taken away? *shudder*

I think our society as we know it would collapse into separate *gangs*, which would fall into a sort of hierarchy. It would be the survival of the fittest, to the extreme. It might take awhile to get there, but I think ultimately it is in our nature to look to those stronger than us to lead, and those wiser than ourselves to tell us what to do. Without that, we are lost, and the lost then become afraid and the fearful lash out in violence because they don't know what else to do.

Personal property security would be paramount to fend off the raiders.

Religious fanaticism would become like raider partys.

Rape, robbery, and other such crimes would be the norm.

We are not evolved enough to shrug off the violent and greedy nature within ourselves even with tons of consequences for the action...imagine if there was no consequences for crime...scary thought.

Society and law is here because its necessary, it is the keystone of how we managed to knuckledrag our way out of caves without murdering everyone in sight to get their women/food/fire.

reply to post by SaturnFX


My thoughts exactly. I couldn't have put it any better.

That is why I really question anyone who cries out against law enforcement and calls for anarchy. What in the world are they going to do next?

reply to post by westcoast


I do believe we do have too many laws though, Its all becoming a bit draconian. Laws should be minimal and punishment fit the crime when there is one. There is a great deal of information about what punishment measures do and do not work in society, yet we have such incredible fear brought to you by the 24 hour news networks that new laws are made daily, punishments are more society vengence motivated verses logically issued for social improvement, etc.

Our justice system is backwards on soo many levels...but going without law and order is certainly not a go. Restructuring everything based on statistics and evidence and cut out emotional attachment is in order. Law needs to be a cold and logical measure for society to continue functioning as a society, not a surrogate father figure to solve all your problems and give you no personal responsibility.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Again, I agree with you. While I am a very strong supporter of law enforcement, for the same reason I have first hand knowledge of some of the things that could change for the better.

I believe that (at least in the states), we have come to depend too much on 'big brother'. Parents have forgotten how to be parents and children are taught in school that they can call the police on their folks if they try to discipline them. The result is a generation of kids growing up thinking that they can blame their bad behavior on everyone else and not take responsibilty for thier own actions.

Do you know how many times the police get called because someone can't get their ten-year-old to go to bed? Seriously. Or how about all the 'domestics'? Now, physical violence is one thing...but to have the police respond to every verbal arguement so that they can parent the parents is just plain ridiculous!

I agree that laws and enforcement is needed, but we also need to start putting some of the responsibility back on the peope.

reply to post by westcoast


Very interesting topic to explore. You made a wonderful comparison of your experience to what an awareness of a law can do. I think the answer to your question of what would happen without laws lies in histroy.

In the early days of the Wild West, it was survival of the fittest, the stongest, the smartest, or the one who had the most bullets. For the most part people went about doing there own thing with little problems. When the more people arrived, a need for taming happened because groups of people started taking advantage of others. People simply grew tired of being shot at, roughed up, or stolen from. Laws, rules, customs, call it what you will but people will not go for mayhem.

People may claim they do not want laws but what they are really meaning is that they do not want laws that make no sense to them. Personal opinion prevails as to which laws make sense. For instance you may think the law against spitting from a bridge makes no sense but the person walking below that just got hit with the big goober may disagree.

The problem really isn't with laws but in some people's disregard for the safety and well-being of others. Get rid of the laws and the former law breakers will go on a spree just like the days of the Wild West where only the ones with the most bullets got what they wanted. Eventually good people would tire of being victimized and would go about getting some laws back and some law enforcers.

Back to laws that do not make sense, I guess we need to look at each law to figure out who is being protected by the law. Is it the guy under the bridge or the one spitting from the top?

My 18 year old daughter and I have this conversation quite a bit. She is of the impression that humans are inherently good and given the chance will "do the right thing" and do not need governing. I suppose it's my fault for giving her a safe home to grow up in. I often fear for her well being once she gets our of our little community. I try to tell her that she forgot to factor stupid people into her equation. They can really screw up a bar graph. Until money, greed, power, and quest for more of all are gone, there will always be a need for law enforcement.

reply to post by network dude


Well said.

I was rather protected and ignorant until I spent some time as a dispatcher. Wow...talk about an eye-opening experience. I am now rather jaded. I have come to realize there are more stupid people than there are smart, unfortunately. Not to say that only stupid people break the law, by any means. The scariest ones are the smart ones without a conscious. (otherwise known as politicians)

[edit on 1-3-2010 by westcoast]

I say that a wide variety of issues could crop up - depending on many things. If we begin extracting the "Dark" Energy and using it instead, most "laws" would be unnecessary.

I have a thread that shows this: www.abovetopsecret.com...

But if things are left as they are...total chaos.

Originally posted by westcoast
The scariest ones are the smart ones without a conscious. (otherwise known as politicians)

[edit on 1-3-2010 by westcoast]

quoted for truth.

I would imagine that. the major criminal orginastions would fully take over both law enforcement. and cities. claiming themselves the king/mayors etc of said areas.

I can also imagine large wars between different orginisations, fighting over territory.
Which would affect everybody.

I guess it would be similar to now. but also very different.

[edit on 1-3-2010 by MR BOB]

I have always thought that the law is for the unjust not the just. If someone was just inside they would need no law. Unfortunately the unjust have made life without law impossible. Yes society needs laws. Nice thread. S&F

Originally posted by network dude
My 18 year old daughter and I have this conversation quite a bit. She is of the impression that humans are inherently good and given the chance will "do the right thing" and do not need governing.

I actually agree with that. 7 out of 10 people are good and will do the right thing.

but those last 3 are a sonofa.....

The laws are designed not for the 7, but for the 3...the problem is when the laws keep compiling to where it hits 6 out of 10.

I don't think crime would suddenly "be the norm."

People would just have to TAKE DIRECT AND SOLE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND WELL-BEING.


I don't think that's a bad thing at all!


Look, we waive over our safety and responsibility to this Nanny State, and what do they do? Turn around and spit in our faces and abuse the privilege. Not just with law enforcement but laws in general, taxes, wars, all the stupid stuff they do that chains our freedom down until it doesn't even exist anymore. This country is NOT free. It has some freedoms but there is no such thing as a "free country."

If true freedom could be said to exist anywhere at all, someone would certainly pass a law against it.


If everyone was not only personally responsible but also took the time and responsibility to also know all their neighbors, be on good terms with them and watch over each others' backs as well, towns and neighborhoods would be MUCH harder to take by ANY group, whether it be criminals or martial law or even foreign armies. Think about it. An entire nation of thousands upon thousands of small towns that are all independent and armed to the teeth, willing to defend what's theirs? Occupying this same country as a whole would be nearly impossible and completely worthless strategically. Maybe natural resources would still be a target but there is no point trying to rule a people that absolutely will not accept your authority, just like what we are seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan, and what we saw in Vietnam and Cuba. Guerrilla warfare by small bands of dedicated individuals just works, even against the largest army in the world.

without laws you would cease to exist as without them you have no foundation for your constitution.without law enforcement the forces that are allowed to exist because of an accepted law would then have to exist as a law or be disregarded as necessary for the existence of existence itself.

Originally posted by MR BOB
I would imagine that. the major criminal orginastions would fully take over both law enforcement. and cities. claiming themselves the king/mayors etc of said areas.

I can also imagine large wars between different orginisations, fighting over territory.
Which would affect everybody.

I guess it would be similar to now. but also very different.

[edit on 1-3-2010 by MR BOB]

First - Great Thread!

I have to agree for the most part. Gangs in large cities would be an immediate threat and cause tremendous problems. Banks would be robbed, women raped and murdered etc... While I do agree with other posters that many many people will do the "right" thing when and if a time of decision is upon them the bad apples will take over quickly if they are not stopped in some manner. Therefore people will be forced to pick sides and create law enforcement which is ironic...

Stone

We would live day to day in constant fear of killed or be killed. If you look at places like Northern Africa you would see what we would fall into in a matter of days or weeks.

Society does need laws, but a stateless society would not be "lawless".

A common misconception is that you can do whatever you want in an anarchistic area. It's simply not true.

There would still be a threat/consequence system. Laws would be based upon common sense and the consensus of the people living in an area.

If you steal from somebody, they're going to shoot you. If you survive, then the people of that area are going to throw you out and you'll have to fend for yourself until you can find a new place to live.

I'd say that's a better deterrent than our current police force, who might send you to jail where you can watch cable television and get free meals if you break the law.

reply to post by bsbray11


I think you have some very valid points. I completely agree that people would be forced to take responsibility for thier own safety and well-being. I think this is where we have to stop and think about HOW they would accomplish this? There would be different groups formed based upon how they would see fit to take care of their own safety. This is where the problems would develop. (IMO)

I agree that we are losing more and more of our freedoms, but it is because of the general public's lack of willingness to take above mentioned responsibility! So the question I pose is how do we change this? To eliminate laws would only create more problems (again, IMO).

You make an incredibly valid point about small towns, and how we need to watch out for each other. A couple of years ago I went to Nebraska for the first time. At first I was a little creeped out by the strangers waving at me. Cars driving by, people walking down the street...complete strangers waving at me. My feelings of unease towards them eventually turned to disapointment in myself. They were simply being nice! I was so tuned out to the world and more importantly the people around me, that I for some reason found it strange that someone would wave a friendly hello as we passed. What was wrong with me?!! By the second day, I was happily waving at every stranger I passed and you know what? It felt good! I still try it every once in awhile here at home and even though I live in what is considered a small town by our standards...wow, do I get some wierd looks.

I do disagree with you about guerilla warfare being okay. Umm....that is not something I would want to be a part of. I do not associate them with neighbor protecting neighbor, but terrorism and drugs. Perhaps my perception is wrong, but there it is.

I think we DO need to get back to the basic concept of a united people, because we are rapidly losing it, and with it our social stability.

Originally posted by westcoast

I bring this up, because I have noticed a very disturbing trend lately of those that shout to get rid of all law enforcement.

This is very American !

Anyone should be allowed to do absolutely anything they feel like doing.
Any restriction would be an infringement of personal rights and liberty.

So law enforcement or the basic rules of society are seen by some as as being oppression.

I believe the world will be very interested to see what happens in America when law and social order completely break down, as it is about to do.

Will 300 million people armed with 270 million guns, walk around being very polite to each other, as many Americans seem to think.

Or will it be like New Orleans after Katrina, and quickly degenerate into total anarchy, with widespread looting, arson, murder and rape ?

An interesting sociological experiment is about to unfold.