NASA's new telescope captures Andromeda galaxy in all its glory!, page 1
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Topic started on 17-2-2010 @ 09:50 PM by serbsta
The new images are starting to come in from NASA's Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE) and they are looking promising. New images released show an enormous comet tail ripping across the sky, but more amazing are the shots of the Andromeda galaxy.

Titled: Our Neighbor Andromeda

HIGH RES


The immense Andromeda galaxy, also known as Messier 31 or simply M31, is captured in full in this new image from NASA's Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer, or WISE. The mosaic covers an area equivalent to more than 100 full moons, or five degrees across the sky. WISE used all four of its infrared detectors to capture this picture (3.4- and 4.6-micron light is colored blue; 12-micron light is green; and 22-micron light is red). Blue highlights mature stars, while yellow and red show dust heated by newborn, massive stars.


Titled: Dirt on Andromeda

HIGH RES


This image from NASA's Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer, or WISE, highlights the dust that speckles the Andromeda galaxy's spiral arms. It shows light seen by the longest-wavelength infrared detectors on WISE (12-micron light has been color coded orange, and 22-micron light, red). The hot dust, which is being heated by newborn stars, traces the spidery arms all the way to the center of the galaxy.

www.nasa.gov...

We get our best shots yet of our closest celestial neighbor, the Andromeda galaxy. Cannot wait for more WISE images to be released.


reply posted on 17-2-2010 @ 10:46 PM by serbsta
reply to post by Phage


Really? Never had the pleasure of seeing it.

Any photos of what it would look like using a decent set of binoculars?



reply posted on 17-2-2010 @ 10:54 PM by Phage
reply to post by serbsta

No pictures. But it looks sort of...spirally. About eight times the size of a full moon (much dimmer of course).
Naked eye shows it as a fuzzy patch of light.


[edit on 2/17/2010 by Phage]


reply posted on 17-2-2010 @ 11:29 PM by Phage
reply to post by gaurdian2012

Well, it's in Andromeda. But using Cassiopeia might be easier.

Cassiopeia is that big "W" in the northern sky (in the milky way). Three of its stars form a pretty nice equilateral triangle. Use the triangle point and follow it toward the west and you should be able to spot the galaxy. It's now a little less than half way between Cassiopeia and the Moon.

Oh, one more thing. Get Stellarium


[edit on 2/17/2010 by Phage]


reply posted on 18-2-2010 @ 12:58 AM by paradigm619
reply to post by gaurdian2012


This image should help you locate it between the constellations Cassiopeia and Pegasus. M31 is the Andromeda galaxy.





reply posted on 18-2-2010 @ 04:57 AM by Devino
reply to post by serbsta

The way I first found Andromeda was with a pair of binoculars and a star chart, similar to one that paradigm619 has linked, and by using the square of Pegasus and Cassiopeia as reference points. Andromeda can be seen with the unaided eye and so is the greatest distance for any object that can be seen in this manner.


I noticed that the images you linked of Andromeda show it spinning in a counter-clockwise direction (Notice the direction of the spiral arms).
Titled: Our Neighbor Andromeda


Google Images of other Galaxies both clockwise and counter-clockwise

An illustration of our galaxy moving in a clockwise direction.

I have often wondered about the nature of rotational motions with celestial objects like planets and galaxies. Does this mean that the Milky Way is upside down as compared to Andromeda?
Does this mean our solar system is upside down as compared to the Milky Way?

[edit on 2/18/2010 by Devino]


reply posted on 19-2-2010 @ 05:40 PM by Devino
Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I'm not sure what you're getting at, isn't the direction of rotation being clockwise or counterclockwise just a matter of perspective? The same galaxy is going either or both directions, just depends on what angle you view it from.

It's not that simple, yet I had to look at it a couple of times just to make sure. The rotational direction of Andromeda is more a matter of "from our point of view" rather than perspective. In other words the direction will not change by simply inverting the image, it will still show a CCW rotation. In order to change its apparent direction of rotation one would have to invert the entire galaxy (Andromeda) or move to a location so we could see the other side.

From our "point of view" it is said that the Earth rotates CCW and orbits the Sun in the same manner. Venus orbits in a CCW direction yet has a retrograde rotation (clockwise), so does this mean Venus' north pole is facing up? Since Venus has no magnetic field this becomes a bit of a problem (no magnetic north). If Venus' north pole is facing down then its rotation is CCW (prograde) as with the rest of the planets and thus Venus' axial tilt is around 2.64 degrees compared to Earth's 23.45 degrees.
I point this problem out a little better in the thread, Which Pole is North?

So, again from our point of view, we see the Milky Way as it were upside down or rotating in a clockwise direction.
Here is a illustration of this point of view I made.

I think we see Andromeda right-side up, rotating in the same direction as our solar system, but all of this gets a bit confusing to me.


reply posted on 19-2-2010 @ 09:15 PM by Arbitrageur
Originally posted by Devino
I think we see Andromeda right-side up, rotating in the same direction as our solar system, but all of this gets a bit confusing to me.


It doesn't seem confusing at all to me, but then I'm not making all kinds of assumptions, which you appear to be. Maybe make less assumptions and it will make more sense.

Originally posted by Devino
Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I'm not sure what you're getting at, isn't the direction of rotation being clockwise or counterclockwise just a matter of perspective? The same galaxy is going either or both directions, just depends on what angle you view it from.

It's not that simple, yet I had to look at it a couple of times just to make sure. The rotational direction of Andromeda is more a matter of "from our point of view" rather than perspective.


Well our point of view is a perspective, is it not? I think you understand, if you viewed Andromeda from the other side the rotation would appear the opposite direction.

In order to change its apparent direction of rotation one would have to move to a location so we could see the other side.


Sure, why not, it's easy enough to look at it from any angle with our 3D models of the universe.

From our "point of view" it is said that the Earth rotates CCW and orbits the Sun in the same manner.


Again it seems like you're making assumptions about perspective. If you travel north and look down yes that's true but if you travel south and look up it's the opposite, so why can't we travel south and look "up", that's even easier than looking at the other side of Andromeda?

Venus orbits in a CCW direction yet has a retrograde rotation (clockwise), so does this mean Venus' north pole is facing up? Since Venus has no magnetic field this becomes a bit of a problem (no magnetic north).


Yes well you can talk about the homogeneity of the rotational directions within our solar system, and give a frame of reference such as arbitrarily choosing a perspective from above Earth's North pole. When you choose that as your reference point for observation, then it really doesn't matter what direction is north or south for the other planets to determine the direction of rotation you'd see from that perspective, right? And given that the Earth's north and south poles flip every so often even the concept of magnetic north is a bit arbitrary and fleeting, the poles will probably flip again and the magnetic north pole will be back at the geographic south pole like it has been several times before.

So, again from our point of view, we see the Milky Way as it were upside down or rotating in a clockwise direction.


That's not what your diagram shows to me, it shows me we are looking at the milky way more or less edge on. To see a direction of rotation as clockwise or counterclockwise we'd have to go above or below the galactic plane, so you could do either and see either direction. And I read your other thread where the guy explained to you that galaxies really don't have an up or down, or north or south, but you seem to be trying to apply this attribution anyway, and if you do so, it's arbitrary so it's really meaningless to question if it's upside down or not when your frame of reference for asking the question is arbitrary.

Now here's some more to confuse you, think about the impending collision between our milky way and Andromeda. The rotational direction of both galaxies is likely to be altered by the collision as shown in this video, changing whatever frame of reference you thought you were using.




reply posted on 20-2-2010 @ 04:28 PM by Devino
reply to post by Arbitrageur


You failed to understand my point entirely and I am not going to waste time over a debate in semantics. I was hoping that you might be able to break this language barrier and at least attempt to understand what my original point was but apparently I was wrong.

Is the rotational direction of a Hurricane an arbitrary assumption?
Where is the Sun's north pole right now?
Up, down-North, south-Positive-negative axis?

If planetary motions are counter-clockwise in a galaxy that is moving clockwise which one is upside down. Can you even understand the differentiation here?

Our solar system is edge on to the Milky Way yet it is not at 90 degrees to its plane, this makes all the difference by the way. We are about 60 degrees to the galactic plane yet that would put us "upside down" to the galactic motions (or, if you like, we spin one way and the galaxy spins the other). more accurately we are 120 degrees off from the galactic plane. I see this understanding as an important astronomical observation and one that most people are not even aware of.

Why is our solar system at such an inclined position?

Did you know that from this observation came a theory about our solar system originally belonging to the Sagittarius galaxy?
FYI- The Sagittarius galaxy has been consumed by the much larger Milky Way some time ago and is still in the process of being integrated into the Milky Way.

Are rotational and orbital motions random or is there an order from their origin?
The term "origin of rotation" has very big implications that, again, most are unaware of.

What effects do opposing rotational motions have on any system?

These are just a few of the questions I have and a brief explanation of my confusion over these systems , their apparent motions and our place in all of this.

Now here's some more to confuse you, think about the impending collision between our milky way and Andromeda.

The only confusion you have to offer me from your post here is the reason for your reply. If you fail to at least try to understand my original point then I see no reason to further this discussion.



reply posted on 7-3-2010 @ 11:31 PM by vick2075
Devino,

I've been thinking and researching about this topic for a quite awhile and my conclusion confirms yours. Basically our sun and hence our solar system is pointing towards Vega (Hercules or Draco) in the direction of their orbit which is quite the same with the ecliptic North Point. The latter along with the Galactic North Point gives you an angle of about 60 using spherical trigonometry.

That means the planets are orbiting the sun in an anti-clockwise direction (ACD) in the direction the sun is moving. In other words the whole solar system is rotating ACD in the direction of its orbit. However this orbit of the sun is actually clockwise with regard to the plane of the galaxy.

If you do a mental calculation or try to visualise this as follows: if you just invert the whole galaxy so that now the sun is orbiting the galaxy in an ACD fashion, our solar system will still be rotating ACD from the direction it is moving; you will discover two fundamental points:
1) the direction of orbit or rotation (whether ACD or CD) of an object should always be looked at from the direction the object is moving and not from behind its trail.
2) from the above mental experiment, the only conclusion is that the galaxy is actually upside down.

The above is too clear your confusion. But my research went on and i wanted to know the orientation of the galaxy in relation to the local group or to the Virgo Supercluster. But i could find no definitive info regarding this from all the sources i consulted. Basically we know our place in the universe as seen from the atlas of the universe site....but no 3-d visualisation of the actual orientation of the galaxy in relation to super-large structures in the observable universe...


reply posted on 9-3-2010 @ 04:03 AM by Devino
reply to post by vick2075

OK, so our solar system's ecliptic North pole is pointed towards the constellation Draco. We are moving in a galactic rotation towards the star Deneb or the constellation Cepheus. Since we are nearly edge on to the center of our galaxy that would mean we are in a solar equinox with the Milk Way. So far I think I understand this correctly.

My question has to do with our solar alignment to the Milky Way as we rotate, or orbit the galactic center. Do we remain in equinoctial alignment with the galactic center or do we go through hemispherical solstices and equinoxes throughout our orbit similar to how the planet Uranus orbits our Sun? If our solar alignment remains fixed with no regard to the galactic rotations then we are in an "Autumnal equinox" and thus heading into a galactic winter or a Southern Solstice (summer for those down under).

My confusion comes in when I try to compare our solar ecliptic to that of the Milky Way, Sagittarius and Andromeda galaxies. It seems we are better aligned with the latter two then our own galaxy. I could be wrong here as the information I have found does not appear to be conclusive.

Then the question comes down to whether any of this even matters. I am interested in these alignments and why we are at such a large angle with our own galaxy. I am further interested in knowing if any of these rotational motions have effects on each other and their intrinsic magnetic fields. If we are heading through a solar equinox and into a Southern solstice then a big change is about to occur with regards to these directional motions.

With our Southern hemisphere soon to begin to face towards the galactic center we will be in rotational agreement with the Milky Way after this point (clockwise direction). If rotational motions do have an effect on each other then there is a change about to occur. The motions within our solar system have been against the galactic rotational direction (retrograde) for well over 100 million years as we went through a Northern Solstice and now this is about to change. This is of coarse all depending on how accurate the information is that I used to determine all of this.


reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 01:01 PM by vick2075
Actually the solar orbit around the galactic centre (GC) is based on the following data:

1) distance from GC is about 26000 ly (best estimates)
2) time for 1 orbit is 226 million years
3) type of orbit: nearly elliptical and oscillatory
4) oscillatory motion is made by the sun by about 7 km/ sec

Based on the third data, the orbit of the sun uses a simple harmonic motion that carries it up and down from the middle GC. Its amplitude is about 250-300 ly.

The actual position of the solar system is currently about 20 parsecs above the galactic plane and is moving upward. We are moving in a NW-clockwise direction with regard to the galactic plane.

Since our ecliptic plane is inclined at 60 degrees, i would presume that it is actually the southern hemisphere of earth that has the full view of the GC.

Every december of every year the sun is between us and the GC and every june we are between the sun and the GC.

I don't know about the alignments with Andromeda, but to answer the question of why is there about 60 deg between ecliptic and GNP, the answer or to find the answer, we just have to look more closely to the finer details of astrophysical descriptions of other suns in the galaxy and try to figure their rotational direction whether ACD or CD and in which direction they are orbiting and by what angle they are doing so. If they are all moving clockwise (and rotating ACD) but at reduced angle, say 20 or even 10 then our sun is a special case. Our sun may have been captured from a straying nearby dwarf galaxy.

As to the rotating movement of any celestial objects like the suns and planets, their cores act as dynamos that produce their magnetic fields. But none of the planets' rotation field affects the others except for their orbits.
On a galactic plane, the rotational movement of the whole is simply the orbit movement of its suns. The only possible rotation proper of the galaxy might be the supermassive black hole at its centre. But that is not enough to affect the solar system individual rotational fields of the planets.
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