Does Socialism lead us to tyranny, communism, or dictatorship? Check your history! - USWGO Alternati

Socialism does not exist it is a oligarchy. It always boils down to that and so does communism for that matter. And for all the readers who have not heard that term please look it up. Information will stop this once and for all until we forget again. Apathy is our biggest enemy we have been to this rodeo before we just forgot--- sometimes time hurts knowledge.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]

wow this debates is starting to really go on. I hope that communism never comes back. At first I didn't like Ronald Reagan being against government run health care well now I see why hes against it. Government run health care is wrong. In order to bring down drug prices we need extreme competition. Right now the only reason capitalism is screwed up is because of corporate monopolies and if we had more competition we will start to see an end to this mess.

Socialism won't save us!!! It's an end to corporate monopolies that will save us!

A little something to add to your research USWGO
www.thedailyshow.com...

Straight from the RNC in Hawaii

reply to post by Subjective Truth


An oligarchy (Greek Ὀλιγαρχία, Oligarkhía) (oligocracy) is a form of government in which power effectively rests with a small elite segment of society distinguished by royalty, wealth, intellect, family ties, military might, or religious hegemony. The word oligarchy is from the Greek words for "few" (ὀλίγος olígos) and "rule" (ἀρχή arkhē). Such states are often controlled by politically powerful families whose children are heavily conditioned and mentored to be heirs of the power of the oligarchy.

Oligarchy

Guess what... the capitalist's taste for wealth has turned this country into an oligarchy already. Actually, it's a Plutarchy

Plutocracy is rule by the wealthy, or power provided by wealth. The combination of both plutocracy and oligarchy is called plutarchy.

In a plutocracy, the degree of economic inequality is high while the level of social mobility is low. This can apply to a multitude of government systems, as the key elements of plutocracy transcend and often occur concurrently with the features of those systems.

The word plutocracy (Modern Greek: πλουτοκρατία - ploutokratia) is derived from the ancient Greek root ploutos, meaning wealth and kratos, meaning to rule or to govern.

Allow me to quote from Raoul Vaneigem's The Revolution of Everyday Life, which may shed some light on why the end result of any socio-economic program is the same

Under the process of decompression, antagonists who seemed irreconcilable at first sight grow old together, become frozen in purely formal opposition, lose their substance, neutralize and moulder into each other. Who would recognize the Bolshevik with his knife between his teeth in the Gagarinism of doting Moscow? Today, by the grace of the Ïcumenical miracle, the slogan "Workers of the World, unite" celebrates the union of the world’s bosses. A touching scene. The common element in the antagonism, the seed of power, which a radical struggle would have rooted out, has grown up to reconcile the estranged brothers.

Decompression is simply the control of antagonisms by power. The opposition of two terms is given its real meaning by the introduction of a third. As long as there are only two equal and opposite polarities, they neutralize each other, since each is defined by the other; as it is impossible to choose between them, we are led into the domain of tolerance and relativity which is so dear to the bourgeoisie.

Originally posted by uswgo
wow this debates is starting to really go on. I hope that communism never comes back. At first I didn't like Ronald Reagan being against government run health care well now I see why hes against it. Government run health care is wrong. In order to bring down drug prices we need extreme competition. Right now the only reason capitalism is screwed up is because of corporate monopolies and if we had more competition we will start to see an end to this mess.

Socialism won't save us!!! It's an end to corporate monopolies that will save us!

Yes, well, good luck getting any "conservative" in the current US government to end corporate monopolies. You're correct in a sense that extreme competition will drive prices down (for awhile). The often misunderstood effect of extreme competition is what happens to the winners after the competition loses. Guess what? They'll dominate the market and drive prices right back up, so unless conservatives (gasp) put a cap on business size/market share, we'll be in the same exact situation as we are now.

That's the inherent problem with giving a health insurance provider a for-profit, corporate structure. Every year the corporation and its shareholders will demand increasing profit, and that can only be made by increasing prices once the competition has been beaten.

The only way to effectively control prices and allow affordable access to everyone is through a non-profit entity such as a public option.

It's the exact same thing as the automotive industry and public transportation. People who can afford vehicles are able to buy them, but to make sure the poor are able to stay mobile, cities offer public means to get around at a much cheaper rate.

Why is that such an evil, socialistic thing to do? Oddly enough, I don't see any threads on ATS purporting how Commie our buses, subways, and trains are, and it's the exact same thing. If public transportation hasn't crushed the automotive industry, why would another socialist program like a public option crush the healthcare industry?

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
Ask me if I enjoy falling into a 49.6% income tax ratio bracket to pay for useless lazy individuals who don't want to work, drain Canada's social services and health care system. Then, when I need to get health care like I did last year when I broke my arm in 6 places, I had to wait 10 hours in the Emergency Department. Then, after finally seeing a second rate "doctor" who could hardly speak English, my arm was put in a cast while I waited 5 weeks for the surgery I needed to rebuild the bones in my arm.

Ask me if I'm fond of the fact that the 10's of thousands of dollars in income tax I pay each year goes towards paying the welfare costs of immigrants who claim "refugee" status and are instantly given a health card granting them access to Canadian social services. Ask me if I'm fond of having my name, address, mental state and job status on a police computer just so I can own a shotgun to go duck hunting twice a year with my buddies.

Ask me if I sleep better at night knowing the criminals and thugs in the Toronto area have better access to firearms than law abiding citizens do because the libtards who have ran my country into the ground adopted European style gun laws. Ask me if I'm proud to be a Canadian... I used to be.

You guys need to look no further than just to the north of you in Canada to get an idea of what happens when socialist agenda's are slowly implemented quietly over time.

Canadians can only dream of having a Constitution like you Americans have had protecting your rights and freedoms all these years.

Don't EVER let any limp wristed libtard try and change it, and if they do, kill them.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by Jocko Flocko]

Toronto, and Canada as a whole have changed a lot over the past 50 years. My parents remember when the police used to lock up the playground swing-set on Sundays because it was the day of rest.

Your words sound like the whining of a Libertarian that does not want to be part of the system. For your glorious sacrifice of tax dollars and time to the Canadian people our nation has done quite a bit for itself. Here's some of what you and other Canadians make possible:

The Loonie reaching parity with the US Dollar

Lower unemployment than the United States

A trade surplus (yes America we export MORE than we import!)

A higher Economic Freedom index than the United States (yes America we have more property rights, fiscal freedom, monetary freedom, labor freedom and freedom from corruption than you, and we're Socialists. The place with the most economic freedom in the world is actually where my mother is from: Hong Kong, which is currently part of a "Communist" country. )

A better healthcare system than the United States

According to the United Nations, Canada is the 4th most developed country in the world, the United States is 13th.

According to the World Liberty Index, Canadians enjoy the third best civil rights on the planet, behind only Estonia and Ireland. The United States was ranked 8th on the list.

According to the Global Peace Index, Canada is the 8th most peaceful nation on the planet, the United States is ranked 83rd.

The Economist gave Canada a score of 9.07/10 on their Democracy Index Making Canada one of the most effective, fair, open and least corrupt governments on the planet. The United States recieved 8.22/10

In Canada 30% of murders are committed with firearms while 70% are in the United States.

Speaking of murder, the current murder rate in Canada is 1.9 per 100,000 people. The United States has 5.4 per 100,000 people.

On top of this, Canada does not have a Death Penalty.

Edit: Winning our first gold medal at an Olympic games that we host! (Sorry I had to)


[edit on 15-2-2010 by ProjectJimmy]

reply to post by uswgo


Any ideology and government when taken to the extreme becomes tyrannical. The alternative extreme is anarchy and it is the human tendency to lean toward one or the other. Right now in the USA and many other countries we are walking the thin line between tyranny and chaos.

Any form of absolutist ideology that believes all other ideas are poison and is extremist will lead to tyranny.

Originally posted by debunky
A little something to add to your research USWGO
www.thedailyshow.com...

Straight from the RNC in Hawaii

That is absolutely brilliant! Star for you, well done. I'm still laughing about it, and my dog is looking at me like I'm insane.

Debunky and the Daily Show raise a great point here though, the mere mention of Socialism is a paralytic to the right-wing in America. As soon as the word is mentioned any progress toward consensus is frozen. Now I have never ever said that President Obama should be given leave to simply do whatever he wants, he still must compromise and find solutions within the framework, but that's not the option he's being given.

Hearing the people here on ATS and in the right-wing media in America, one would think Obama is an evil experiment to cross Hitler and Stalin! What ever happened to the calls for "support the president, because he's the president" that you people trumpeted so loudly under George W. Bush?

reply to post by links234


"have no idea how you calculate your taxes, why don't you move down to Buffalo? "

Ah yes, the typical response I hear from the average Canadian sheeple that roam around Toronto sipping their cafe late enjoying their ignorance taught to them by the likes of the CBC and the ultra left wing academia in this country. I have no plan to move anytime in the near future thanks, I love my country and the ideals it what was founded upon long ago. I completely despise the ideals and pathetic values it stands for today. Lets see, my federal and provincial tax rates combined are in the 46-49% range every year, what is hard to grasp about those numbers?

"Your wait times are longer, but you pay considerably less"

Did you pull this opinion directly out of a communist CBC U.S. bashing documentary, or did you actually do any research yourself? The fact is that wait times are so long for health care in Ontario Canada, Canadians will often head south of the border to get quick medical services like MRI scans, chemotherapy, surgery and other services for life threatening ailments. You just have to take a look at all the private medical clinics popping up in Ontario and Quebec to get an idea of just how dire our system is in Canada. If the same thing that happened to me last year happened tomorrow, I would go to one of these clinics and get my credit card out rather than sit and wait for sub par services for 10 to 12 hours.





"The US spent $614 billion on welfare in 2008. Canada spend $145 billion in 2006."

Hmmm, hey, did you know that more people live in the U.S. than Canada? Just a small little fact you might have overlooked there.

US Population: 308,699,000
Canadian Population: 34,004,000

Should I do the math for you too in regards to welfare?

"There is no state licensing requirement for the possession of a rifle or shotgun" in New York (except the city). However, "A license is needed to possess a handgun in one's home or place of business."

What was your point in using this other than reinforcing my already stated FACT? Like I said, in Canada I have to have a license to own a shotgun to go duck hunting twice a year or do some skeet shooting at my cottage. Each and EVERY LONG GUN I own has to be registered under Canada's new pointless long gun and handgun registry. Each guns serial number is entered into a database along with the name, address, mental state, telephone number, job status and marital situation of the owner. Every police department across Canada then has access to this database.

For example, if a person is having an argument with their wife and the neighbors call the cops because it's a little loud, the police see on their little computers the residence has firearms registered. They then decide that the Tactical squad -or SWAT for Americans- should be called. You would then be taken out of your home at gunpoint by officers will full tactical weapons and gear just because you like to go duck hunting once a year. You must be a completely brainwashed idiot if you don't see something wrong with this. If you see nothing wrong with this, please, move to China.

"According to the FBI in 2003 of known offenses, the crime rate in Buffalo, NY showed over 19,000 incidents per 100,000 people. Toronto had 5,758 offenses per 100,000 people in 2006. "

What do these stats have do with my ability to be able to protect my family from the garbage that roam Toronto's urban and sub-urban area's committing home invasion style rape, murder and robbery at gun point? I guess you'll tell me I should feel safe enough and rely on the police to get to my home and arrest the bad guys in time? Don't bother, if saving my family means blowing a large 10" hole through an intruders chest who's entering my home to do my family harm, so be it, I'll serve my sentence gladly and tell the judge if I had to do it again I would.









[edit on 16-2-2010 by Jocko Flocko]

[edit on 16-2-2010 by Jocko Flocko]

reply to post by Jocko Flocko

Lets see, my federal and provincial tax rates combined are in the 46-49% range every year, what is hard to grasp about those numbers?

There are some here in the US that would argue they pay roughly the same amount, I don't agree with that, so I don't know how to say you pay more or less.

Did you pull this opinion directly out of a communist CBC U.S. bashing documentary...

No, that opinion was from the President and CEO of University Health Network, Toronto.

Hmmm, hey, did you know that more people live in the U.S. than Canada?

Given our numbers, the US spent $1,988.99 per person.
Canada spent $4,246.20 per person.

Considerably more, I could elaborate on this in that Canadians appear to have a lot more 'safety nets' and social programs for their citizens. Other than spending exhorbitant amounts on individuals I can't imagine where all this money goes...I imagine a lot of factors come into play though. I'll concede defeat and say that you should really consider doing something about that.

What was your point in using this other than reinforcing my already stated FACT?

My point was that...it's no different here in the US so you should stop complaining about it?

What do these stats have do with my ability to be able to protect my family from the garbage that roam Toronto's urban and sub-urban area's committing home invasion style rape, murder and robbery at gun point?

They have to do with the fact that while you complain about the dangers of Toronto, you're completely ignoring that it's been listed as one of the safest cities in North America numerous times by numerous agencies. Be happy with where you are! Carry your gun, protect your family if you don't feel safe. Although...I thought you only used your guns to go hunting twice a year?

I really just wanted to point out that, in my opinion with the numbers I've seen, Canada's not as bad as you make it out to be. I'm not moving to Canada anytime soon, I'd rather make further attempts at 'a more perfect union' down here.

Edit: I'd like to point out ProjectJimmy made a lot of great points about Canada as well.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by links234]

Quick note I took a look at the crime statistics for Toronto, and luckily enough the city's own web site had a nice little table to compare the rates for the major cities in North America.

The first thing I took a look at was the homicide rate. It stands at 1.8 per 100,000 residents. Now the stats for the Canadian numbers were for the Census Metropolitan Area, which for Toronto comes in at about 5.1 million people. The closest city of comparison in terms of size in the United States is Detroit. Now I'm not going to be that mean, a step up would be Atlanta and that's rather mean as well, so we'll go a step down and compare Toronto to Seattle.

Seattle's statistical area has 4.0 million citizens, smaller to be sure. Now Seattle ranks always among America's safest cities, and according to the statistics on the City of Toronto site, it is in fact the safest major United States city when it comes to homicide rate. It's still at 4.2 per 100,000 though. That's considerably higher than Toronto's 1.8

Alright so you want something safer than Seattle but still in North America, well the problem there is that you're answers are all in Canada. In fact, all of the major cities in Canada are safer than the safest major city in the United States.

Now this could be cultural differences, perhaps we Canadians, socialist as we may be, are just less likely to kill people because of some societal norms present in the people, or it could be a little something to do with the fact that weapons are harder to get their hands on in the land of the leaf. I'm not going to make a judgment call on that one.

Edit: As for the CBC, (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) it's got one of the best fairness and accuracy records in journalism and utilizes a great ombudsman system to ensure that. In fact it was considered such a good news service that on 9-11 in the United States, C-SPAN actually switched their coverage over to the CBC's. Imagine that the worst terrorist attack on American soil ever and the cable network devoted to covering United States public affairs actually switched to the Canadian network for coverage.

Edit 2: Thank you links234, you've made some great points as well!
[edit on 17-2-2010 by ProjectJimmy]

[edit on 17-2-2010 by ProjectJimmy]