Archaeological Evidence for the Bible vs The Cover Ups.

reply to post by K J Gunderson

What was their way out?

Exodus 12 v 13 "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt."

K J, what is your view of abortion?

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
So since Stephen King books often take place in the state of Maine, a real place, and include things that actually happen like marriage ceremonies, then "Pet Cemetery" should be considered historically accurate? I do not see anything in that link that could not be applied to a great number of works of fiction.

by your logic, all historical books and events are suspect.

rome existed and had a caesar, but does any of that prove that julius was murdered and stabbed?

is there any physical evidence besides word of mouth accounts that george washington actually crossed the patomic?

why does your standard of prove apply to the bible but not to other historical accounts?

your also leaving out embarrassment. why would the egyptians record the exodus? wouldnt it be embarrasing for them as a country that their god's were impotent and their pharoah was killed?

why would the pharisees write about jesus' miracles? dont his miracles prove that he was the son of god and that they were wrong? why would they make records of it if they are trying to suppress the new christian congregation?

im not saying that your wrong for being cynical, but there is a thing as being TOO cynical.

Originally posted by dusty1
Exodus 12 v 13 "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt."

That is not much of a way out. What if I had a fever and could not rouse from bed to put the blood at my door? My baby dies? What if I fell and suffered an injury that kept me from getting the blood on the door? My baby dies? Why should I even have to do ANYTHING to stop your god from killing my INNOCENT baby because of something someone else had done? What about the other plagues?

Do you really not see a problem with your god killing innocent babies because of something someone else decided - blood on the door or not?

That does not bother you? That does not look like infanticide?

Think about it. Your baby will be killed just because of something the Pharoh did and because you did not put blood on your door in time? That is ok with you?

K J, what is your view of abortion?

That is kind of a broad question. I am not sure how to answer it easily. It is a complicated issue as far as I am concerned and I would hate to bore you or anyone else in this thread with a huge explanation of all my feelings about abortion. Maybe be more specific?

reply to post by K J Gunderson

Your baby will be killed just because of something the Pharoh did and because you did not put blood on your door in time?

Where does it say babies were killed?

That is kind of a broad question. I am not sure how to answer it easily. It is a complicated issue as far as I am concerned and I would hate to bore you or anyone else in this thread with a huge explanation of all my feelings about abortion. Maybe be more specific?

In your opinion.

Is abortion wrong?

Is a doctor that performs abortions, a baby killer?

Is a mother that chooses to have a late term abortion, guilty of infanticide?


[edit on 28-3-2010 by dusty1]

Originally posted by miriam0566
by your logic, all historical books and events are suspect.

Shouldn't they be? Most books that claim to be historical texts though can actually be backed up.

Book says Mr. X did such and such in such a place at such a time.

Did he exist? Checks out.
Did he live in that place at that time? Checks out.
Did the thing he did actually get done? Checks out.

Now let's look at the difference between history and the bible.

Book says Mr. X did such and such in such a place at such a time plus a miracle happened.

Did He exist? Checks out.
Did he live in that place at that time? Checks out.
Did the thin he did actually get done? Checks out.
Did the miracle happen? ----

I have a book right here that is on the history of M.C. Escher. We can confirm he existed, we have his artwork and writing, we have his documented life. The book is about a man that did some stuff we can check out.

The bible on the other hand is about magical beings and miracles...that just happens to also contain parts about people and places.

You do see that difference right?

rome existed and had a caesar, but does any of that prove that julius was murdered and stabbed?

Nope. You will notice that I agreed that all kinds - not all - but many many historical accounts are questionable. History has been written by the winners and the powerful. Those are rarely the most honest people in society.

is there any physical evidence besides word of mouth accounts that george washington actually crossed the patomic?

Not sure. I would not spend my life worshiping anything based on that story either.

why does your standard of prove apply to the bible but not to other historical accounts?

Actually it does. The only difference is that often we can confirm people, places, and events. We cannot confirm your god, angels, demons, Satan, miracles, you know the stuff the bible is all about.

Look at it this way. One story is about a guy stabbing another guy. Another is about a man crossing a river. The third is about things like Noah's Ark.

What is the big difference? Can we prove that men can stab other men? Yep. Is it believable then? At least.

Can we prove that men can cross rivers? Sure can. Is it believable then? At least.

Can we prove two of every single creature on the planet could be rounded up and kept on a boat for 40 days? Uh...well actually we can easily prove that is not even remotely possible. Is it believable? Not even a little.

Do I put blind faith in all historical accounts? NOPE. Have I seen evidence that people get stabbed and cross rivers? YEP! Have I seen evidence that any of the stuff about God, miracles, or any other supernatural phenomena the Bible is all about? NOPE.

See the difference?

your also leaving out embarrassment. why would the egyptians record the exodus? wouldnt it be embarrasing for them as a country that their god's were impotent and their pharoah was killed?

Gosh, it would probably be embarrassing to the Nazi party to let people find out Hitler died by his own hand in a bunker eh? It might be embarrassing to find out Chris Columbus thought he made it all the way around to India and landed far south of the America he is credited with discovering. It might be super embarrassing for people to find out about Chernobyl. How proud was the U.S. to report Lincoln getting shot watching a play?

I am not sure I follow that line of reasoning but it does not really help even if I do.

why would the pharisees write about jesus' miracles? dont his miracles prove that he was the son of god and that they were wrong? why would they make records of it if they are trying to suppress the new christian congregation?

Are you acknowledging that all other gods written about are real then? You believe in Zeus? He was written about.

Why would some joker write about being a time traveler that came back to pick up an old computer and then hang out on ATS for a while? Why would Clive Barker write about a dead slave that comes back from the dead to take a new bride?

I am not sure why people would write anything but if writing about it makes it true then your god has lots and lots and lots of company, does he not?

Tell me, does writing about miracles make all miracles true - regardless of the god or religion they were written into?

im not saying that your wrong for being cynical, but there is a thing as being TOO cynical.

Well I am not saying you are wrong either. I will reserve judgment on whether or not you are TOO faithful for now.

Originally posted by dusty1


Where does it say babies were killed?

I could be mistaken. What was the 10th plague?

In your opinion.

Is abortion wrong?

I do not see how anyone can see it as black and white. It is an extremely complicated issue. Abortions happen for such a great number of reasons under a great many different circumstances. I honestly do not feel it is my place to say if it is right and wrong. I can understand why it has to be done and I can understand how it can be bad. Unfortunately, I am a male so I think that my opinion on the matter should really be kept quiet anyway. I am not a big fan of men making judgments on things they can never fully understand.

Is a doctor that performs abortions, a baby killer?

Is a doctor that performs an abortion in order to save the life of the mother a life saver?

Is a mother that chooses to have a late term abortion, guilty of infanticide?

Hopefully I have qualified myself well enough already that you can take this for what it is worth - just something some man says. I do not equate a fetus with a baby. I would even be happy to elaborate on that for you but I feel compelled to ask you something first.

What do you think happens to the souls of aborted babies?

Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by DrHammondStoat
No where outside of the bible are the existence or miracles of Jesus verified, nowhere!

But what is YOUR point Dr?

Archaeological Evidence of a Miracle, is outside of the Discussion and has no merit being brought forth in the Discussion.

It is the Historic Value that Archaeological Evidence points towards.

It would be the realm of Medical Texts and such to address Miracles.

And I would honestly respond, Medical Texts of that period would not "show" evidence of Miracles, just as they do not show evidence of Miracles today. They do not even consider Alternative and Natural remedies as valid choices for Medical Purposes, so how do you expect them to address Healings by GOD?

I trust you get my point.

As for your dismissal of Christ, it is expected and no surprise. It's just like all the other's, when presented with evidence they opt to ignore, due to inherant hatred for the Son of GOD.

Do not be worried. There are people all over this planet that absolutely froth at the mouth when confronted with "Christ" as is evident by the rabit amoungst us here. They only wish to do their Father's

bidding in denying Christ and HIS authority.

As a matter of FACT, you can read examples of this from the Begining of the Bible to the End. Those of the Synagoue of Satan, or of Their father the Devil. But I guess you do not believe that either.

Ciao

Shane

Well to take this back to a discussion of archaelogical evidence..... I see you chose to ignore my point about evidence for a historical jesus (outside of the bible) and instead focus on 'miracles'. Arguing that only 'medical texts' might have recorded miracles doesn't really make sense considering you and others see the books of the bible as historical texts but they are still able to communicate the act of miracles being performed.

Your presumption that I dismiss Christ is not quite correct. I personally think focusing on one book (put together by human beings) and spending your whole life convincing yourself that this set of texts is the infallible word of the supreme deity is limiting. I also think interpreting such texts literally is missing the point. I can assure you I don't froth at the mouth at the mention of Christ, I am just simply bored of people who view god/deity/whatever from an earthly 'black and white' perspective insisting I should too. Surely if I was created in god's images he would understand that I will use my inteligence to question and seek that piece of god inside myself, not the static pages of a book.

Again, bringing this discussion back on topic I am going to throw down a gauntlet.
Can any one quote any biblical era text from outside the bible, that distinctly supports the existence of a man called Jesus who came from Nazareth?

It is funny how many events the Bible has been kept on record in the Bible throughout history, from worldly disasters, to important kings and people and ancient places still being discovered today in the form of one book. The Bible is still yet to unravel evidence even if it is not based on evidence but faith, science and historians will forever need it as reference to man's journey throughout Earth and our ancient bloodlines and genealogy and past. No other record speaks the volume this broad volume of information as it ties all the major ancient past empires with prophecies of future wars that look like taking shape today.

You have to read it to findout, you people will find all the missing information on your conspiracy theories if you link this book up to past events that effected us today and what it predicts.

It is such a shame that less and less are being taught it out of feeling ashamed of causing offence.

The Biblical plagues that devastated Ancient Egypt in the Old Testament were the result of global warming and a volcanic eruption, scientists have claimed.

By Richard Gray, Science Correspondent
Published: 11:00AM GMT 27 Mar 2010

Researchers believe they have found evidence of real natural disasters on which the ten plagues of Egypt, which led to Moses freeing the Israelites from slavery in the Book of Exodus in the Bible, were based.

But rather than explaining them as the wrathful act of a vengeful God, the scientists claim the plagues can be attributed to a chain of natural phenomena triggered by changes in the climate and environmental disasters that happened hundreds of miles away.


They have compiled compelling evidence that offers new explanations for the Biblical plagues, which will be outlined in a new series to be broadcast on the National Geographical Channel on Easter Sunday.

Archaeologists now widely believe the plagues occurred at an ancient city of Pi-Rameses on the Nile Delta, which was the capital of Egypt during the reign of Pharaoh Rameses the Second, who ruled between 1279BC and 1213BC.

The city appears to have been abandoned around 3,000 years ago and scientists claim the plagues could offer an explanation.

Climatologists studying the ancient climate at the time have discovered a dramatic shift in the climate in the area occurred towards the end of Rameses the Second's reign.

By studying stalagmites in Egyptian caves they have been able to rebuild a record of the weather patterns using traces of radioactive elements contained within the rock.

They found that Rameses reign coincided with a warm, wet climate, but then the climate switched to a dry period.

Professor Augusto Magini, a paleoclimatologist at Heidelberg University's institute for environmental physics, said: "Pharaoh Rameses II reigned during a very favourable climatic period.

"There was plenty of rain and his country flourished. However, this wet period only lasted a few decades. After Rameses' reign, the climate curve goes sharply downwards.

"There is a dry period which would certainly have had serious consequences."

The scientists believe this switch in the climate was the trigger for the first of the plagues.

The rising temperatures could have caused the river Nile to dry up, turning the fast flowing river that was Egypt's lifeline into a slow moving and muddy watercourse.

These conditions would have been perfect for the arrival of the first plague, which in the Bible is described as the Nile turning to blood.

Dr Stephan Pflugmacher, a biologist at the Leibniz Institute for Water Ecology and Inland Fisheries in Berlin, believes this description could have been the result of a toxic fresh water algae.

He said the bacterium, known as Burgundy Blood algae or Oscillatoria rubescens, is known to have existed 3,000 years ago and still causes similar effects today.

He said: "It multiplies massively in slow-moving warm waters with high levels of nutrition. And as it dies, it stains the water red."

The scientists also claim the arrival of this algae set in motion the events that led to the second, third and forth plagues – frogs, lice and flies.

Frogs development from tadpoles into fully formed adults is governed by hormones that can speed up their development in times of stress.

The arrival of the toxic algae would have triggered such a transformation and forced the frogs to leave the water where they lived.

But as the frogs died, it would have meant that mosquitoes, flies and other insects would have flourished without the predators to keep their numbers under control.

This, according to the scientists, could have led in turn to the fifth and sixth plagues – diseased livestock and boils

Professor Werner Kloas, a biologist at the Leibniz Institute, said: "We know insects often carry diseases like malaria, so the next step in the chain reaction is the outbreak of epidemics, causing the human population to fall ill."

Another major natural disaster more than 400 miles away is now also thought to be responsible for triggering the seventh, eighth and ninth plagues that bring hail, locusts and darkness to Egypt.

One of the biggest volcanic eruptions in human history occurred when Thera, a volcano that was part of the Mediterranean islands of Santorini, just north of Crete, exploded around 3,500 year ago, spewing billions of tons of volcanic ash into the atmosphere.

Nadine von Blohm, from the Institute for Atmospheric Physics in Germany, has been conducting experiments on how hailstorms form and believes that the volcanic ash could have clashed with thunderstorms above Egypt to produce dramatic hail storms.

Dr Siro Trevisanato, a Canadian biologist who has written a book about the plagues, said the locusts could also be explained by the volcanic fall out from the ash.

He said: "The ash fall out caused weather anomalies, which translates into higher precipitations, higher humidity. And that's exactly what fosters the presence of the locusts."

The volcanic ash could also have blocked out the sunlight causing the stories of a plague of darkness.

Scientists have found pumice, stone made from cooled volcanic lava, during excavations of Egyptian ruins despite there not being any volcanoes in Egypt.

Analysis of the rock shows that it came from the Santorini volcano, providing physical evidence that the ash fallout from the eruption at Santorini reached Egyptian shores.

The cause of the final plague, the death of the first borns of Egypt, has been suggested as being caused by a fungus that may have poisoned the grain supplies, of which male first born would have had first pickings and so been first to fall victim.

But Dr Robert Miller, associate professor of the Old Testament, from the Catholic University of America, said: "I'm reluctant to come up with natural causes for all of the plagues.

The problem with the naturalistic explanations, is that they lose the whole point.

"And the whole point was that you didn't come out of Egypt by natural causes, you came out by the hand of God."

Text

[edit on 28-3-2010 by The time lord]

Originally posted by DrHammondStoat

Well to take this back to a discussion of archaelogical evidence.....

Again, bringing this discussion back on topic I am going to throw down a gauntlet.

Real sorry if that one post answering someone about abortion was way off topic for you. Would it help if when you scrolled up you found I spent a great deal of time and put a lot of effort into discussing "archeological" evidence of the bible? I am real sorry for going off topic in that post there but I kind of thought that my really really really long ON TOPIC posts would make it ok.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Exodus says firstborn. It does not say babies. As I stated I am a firstborn and I am an adult.

I see you are quick to judge God Almighty, but not so quick to judge a mother or doctor for a late term abortion.

I have two nephews that were extremely premature. My view on the life of a fetus is a little different than yours.

What do you think happens to the souls of aborted babies?

I do not know.

Psalms 139 v13-16 "For thou hast possessed my reins; thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Isaiah chapter 49 v15 "Can a woman forget her suckling child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee."

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Exodus says firstborn. It does not say babies. As I stated I am a firstborn and I am an adult.

That makes it ok?

I see you are quick to judge God Almighty, but not so quick to judge a mother or doctor for a late term abortion.

Not judging your god at all. Just the bible and its lack of historical evidence along with its abundance of contradictions.

I can judge a book or books just fine. They are in fact black and white. They are all there. There is nothing more, nothing less. A book can be fully judged by its content.

I have two nephews that were extremely premature. My view on the life of a fetus is a little different than yours.

Why? Your nephews were not fetuses once they were born so what is the difference if they were premature or not?

I do not know.

Psalms 139 v13-16 "For thou hast possessed my reins; thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Isaiah chapter 49 v15 "Can a woman forget her suckling child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee."

It sounds to me like your god is all ready to take good care of that baby that was aborted. A life of suffering as a burden or unwanted child vs go straight to Heaven do not pass go? Not hard to choose for me in that case.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Yeah if god kills babies and is ok with it...., and the babies go to heaven.....

free abortions for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!! who wouldnt want to be an aborted baby?!?!?!?! its like wining the lottory!!!!!!!

/sarcasm

What about the handicapped people who were first born..... or people without doors...... WHAT IF YOU WERE A HOMELESS FIRST BORN???

simply screwed.... kinda like the babies that god makes with birth defects. He saw how $%&^ed up they were in the womb before they left... he knew they would die 10 minutes into labor.

nothing like spending 9 months nurtuing a child inside of you and in the end be handed a %&^*ing dead baby. THANKS GOD!


[edit on 28-3-2010 by Wertdagf]

reply to post by Wertdagf

nothing like spending 9 months nurtuing a child inside of you and in the end be handed a %&^*ing dead baby. THANKS GOD!

Have you experienced that first hand?

I have.

God is my only hope to someday see my child grow tall and strong.

reply to post by dusty1


I understand that. It will hurt me when you decide to self-destruct. That which keeps you going does not exist.... your dream will never become a reality.

reply to post by Wertdagf

I understand that. It will hurt me when you decide to self-destruct. That which keeps you going does not exist.... your dream will never become a reality.

Don't worry, I won't self destruct.

You mean, you don't believe it will become reality.


I have faith. You have nothing.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Yeah if god kills babies and is ok with it...., and the babies go to heaven.....

free abortions for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!! who wouldnt want to be an aborted baby?!?!?!?! its like wining the lottory!!!!!!!

/sarcasm

What about the handicapped people who were first born..... or people without doors...... WHAT IF YOU WERE A HOMELESS FIRST BORN???

simply screwed.... kinda like the babies that god makes with birth defects. He saw how $%&^ed up they were in the womb before they left... he knew they would die 10 minutes into labor.

nothing like spending 9 months nurtuing a child inside of you and in the end be handed a %&^*ing dead baby. THANKS GOD!


[edit on 28-3-2010 by Wertdagf]

I am addressing you because you don't understand the Bible, Many of the books are historical accounts of what happened and why, it is not the Koran where there is no sense of past and present in how it deals with its commands and laws.

The Bible gets like an update through man's and God's relationship and how circumstances change and how God reacts with man and his chosen people. If a tribe was a future threat to say God's Son Jesus then he would stand in way too, sometimes evil and the devil will try and stop Jesus ever being born so God's for knowledge leads to these actions.

Look at how Moses was in danger as a baby and how Jesus was in danger as a baby, the Roman killed all the babies off because he was a threat, maybe the Devil influenced the minds to cause this to stop your salvation.

The New Testament is a clean slate, Now Jesus can save all those babies and Nephilim that stood in his way and yet save another 2000 years of human populations and another and forever. Ok no Jesus for anyone let us all is doomed...

But if people preferred if Jesus was not born of pure bloodline to save all those from Adam to the last man standing then you have been given the wrong information and missed a lot of chapters in the Bible, to get the whole picture you need to fill the gaps.

The counterfeit religions will use this idea to wipe-out the Jews and Christians according to their teachings and have mirrored prophecies that sound the same but are opposites in a cult like fashion.

No point in an all knowing God if he keeps it all in his imagination, to prove his glory there needs to an earth and a universe otherwise it is all an imagination.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by The time lord]

Gday,

Originally posted by miriam0566
www.equip.org...
just to name a few.

A few WHAT?
I read that page - it's NOT evidence for Bible events at all.
Why do YOU think it is?

All it is is evidence for ancient places and people - NO evidence for bible events at all.

Originally posted by miriam0566
if you are in NY or London sometimes you can find "bible" tours which takes you through the museum to show you the evidence

WHAT evidence?

We all know ancient places and peoples exist - so what?

You have provided NO evidence that supports bible events.
But you keep pretending you have.


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by miriam0566
by your logic, all historical books and events are suspect.

Nonsense.
All ancient books should be tested and verified.
The bible does NOT stand up to scrutiny.

Originally posted by miriam0566
rome existed and had a caesar, but does any of that prove that julius was murdered and stabbed?

No, but the vast body of evidence that exists, does.

Originally posted by miriam0566
is there any physical evidence besides word of mouth accounts that george washington actually crossed the patomic?

Yes.
History shows he fought on the other side.
We have hard evidence, and many many accounts of the event.

Originally posted by miriam0566
why does your standard of prove apply to the bible but not to other historical accounts?

Wrong.
ALL ancient books are scrutinised and verified.
Some stand up to scrutiny.
The bible does NOT.

The truth is the exact opposite of your claim - apologists like you want the bible to be given a free ride and accepted as true WITHOUT checking.

But when we DO check - we find the bible is wrong in many cases.

Originally posted by miriam0566
your also leaving out embarrassment. why would the egyptians record the exodus? wouldnt it be embarrasing for them as a country that their god's were impotent and their pharoah was killed?

The bible has many embarassing events, so do many ancient works. This argument nis nonsense because we DO see records of embarassing events.

Originally posted by miriam0566
why would the pharisees write about jesus' miracles? dont his miracles prove that he was the son of god and that they were wrong? why would they make records of it if they are trying to suppress the new christian congregation?

So there was a CONSPIRACY to HIDE the facts?!
That's your reason for there being NO evidence.

In fact - Jesus was a space alien who ate babies - but this was so embarassing it was deliberately left out.

Originally posted by miriam0566
im not saying that your wrong for being cynical, but there is a thing as being TOO cynical.

Why can't you just quote some EVIDENCE?
Instead of web sites full of preaching.


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by dusty1
God is my only hope to someday see my child grow tall and strong.

Because nurses and doctors and mid-wives have nothing to do with it, right?


K.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
It would take very little convincing for you to allow a little voice in your head to justify the mutilation of a baby.

That's rich isn't it?

I guess you are a staunch, Anti Abortionist, in your realy life. Your statement of disrespect for the Mutilation of a Baby is truly a Beautiful Expression my Friend.

I applaud you for making such a claim, in this egocentric, self grandizing, materialistic, GOD loathing, world. Kudos for your stance against the society that has devolved into the "Slaughter of the Innocents - The 21st Century Edition".

The events occuring today makes anything Humanity has ever done previously, amatuerist.

Sadly, we are the Real PRO's inrespects to this and it takes a fortitute to be against the masses in this regard.

God Bless you.

Ciao

Shane

P.S. I am sorry for straying from the Topic, but I could not resist applauding the example provided by Wertdagf on the Sanctity of Life. Something we should ALL take to heart.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by Shane]