Archaeological Evidence for the Bible vs The Cover Ups.

Originally posted by The time lord

Originally posted by Maddogkull
First off the God in the bible must not be all loving. To be all loving is to forgive. Now if you set a time limit, and say after this amount of time ( our life time) if you don’t believe in a human who died on a cross, you go to hell for eternity....Now How could a mere mortal like me show more compassion then the lord himself. If I made a civilization of people I would NEVER torment them for eternity because they didn’t believe in someone who died for our sins...... When you think of the god in the bible he is not all loving. It is simple. It really is. What god would put someone in hell for eternity, for not believing in someone? That right there is a God who does not love.

And for the thread, haven’t the Mayans practised elongating the head? or is that something entirely different than those pictures?

[edit on 12-2-2010 by Maddogkull]

so you cannot compare the two, try saying you are compassionate after someone kills you or commits genocide then be more compassionate.

[edit on 13-2-2010 by The time lord]

God has done both those things, who are you to say that maddog isn't as compassionate as a supernatural entity who has commited genocide?

reply to post by The time lord


So let me get this straight, you'd rather support a supernatural explanation than one which has actual evidence to back it up? You'd rather just slap the "God Did it" stamp on then accept the alternative natural explanations for most Biblical miracles? Why is it, then, that every time something which was once thought to be supernatural (the sun, disease, volcanoes, etc) was studied and observed a natural explanation was found.

There is no "cover-up" of Biblical archeology, in fact there are a lot of archeologists trying to uncover the truth about what really went on back then. BUT there's also a fringe group of religious zealots who will only accept a truth that supports their myths. You see science thrives on criticism, there is a viscous peer review process and you need an awful lot of evidence to support a claim before it is accepted. The scientific method welcomes people who point out flaws, because the more inaccuracies that are removed the closer to the actual truth we get.

Also, I think it a poor argument to claim that because the Bible mentions real places that the miracles also took place. The Odyssey mentions Troy, which was discovered to be a real place, but it also mentions gods and goddesses and monsters and other impossibilities so it is more probable that it was based on a true story that was exaggerated into a grand epic myth than it is for all those gods, goddesses and monsters to have been real. An explanation grounded in reality would be more likely than one wild and supernatural.

Noah's flood or the great flood can be found all ancient cultures over the planet that this event occurred

Yes, this is quite interesting, but let's remember that not all the cultures who have a flood myth existed at the same time. Meaning that they likely weren't recalling the same event. Even if they were recalling the same flood it is unlikely that it is the same flood in the Bible. The Biblical flood supposedly killed every living thing aside from Noah and his family, so how does that account for the flood myths from half-way around the world? Another thing to remember is that our species is over 100,000 years old, meaning we survived an ice age, could it be that water-level rise as the ice melted lead to climate change and flooding the likes of which would have spawned exaggerated legends and myths? I think it far more likely than an angry invisible father-figure in the sky magically conjuring a genocidal flood in an attempt to brutally slaughter everything he created.

At the end of the day The Bible is like any myth, it has its kernels of truth, its elements based in reality, and its supernatural or spectacular fantasy elements. Much like a Hollywood movie which might be based on a true story but exaggerated. Also, the myths in the Bible are far older than the records we have of them, they likely went through a myriad of changes, like the proverbial fish story in which the fish gets bigger with each retelling.

Archeologists will continue to dig up new evidence, some of it will likely support Biblical stories but I don't think any of it will support supernatural conclusions.

Some say that the supernatural conclutions are down to curses and blessings, people and nations more in tne with the Bible teachings are better off in success and in life than those who are not. For example when the Jews cultivate their land it grows green, when they are no longer there it is wasteland, this has occured many times throughout Bible history and maybe if they left today it will once more be ghost town and unproductive.
Many Jews are blessed with inspiration and creativity for how little a group of people they are in the world. They even get accused for being part of a conspiracy because 6 million or so Jews have enough intelligence behind them to stop their enemies and be good at making things in science research and the media industry, but for some that is all a conspiracy not a blessing. America is more blessed than any other country that is against them, the ones that hate Israel are still in the desserts, their curse is self chosen out of stubbornness.

Lots of people experience the spirit of God, they become in tune with creation and they experience new relevelations in life. No doubt there is a darkside to these forces and experiences and that is where the conflics happen and people can not see the difference between what is the right way to believe, you can tell by the path of their own destruction when they twist the truth of faith.

Science right now may not explain everything right now but the closer they get the more they start to think that maybe God was there all along.

[edit on 25-3-2010 by The time lord]

reply to post by The time lord

people and nations more in tne with the Bible teachings are better off in success and in life than those who are not

I would say the opposite is true since the Bible says that witches should be killed, women who are raped should marry their rapists and that eating pork or shelfish is bad, it also says God enjoys animal sacrifices. The Bible condones slavery and God, on numerous occasions, directly tortures, maims and kills people in the Bible, in the Old Testament he even slaughters innocent children... anybody following those teachings or lessons would hardly be "blessed". Gandhi said an eye for an eye makes the world blind and I happen to agree.

Just because Jews have risen to places of power does not mean they are blessed. Most people who are powerful are powerful because they are manipulative greedy individuals (though some are just lucky and a handful are actually brilliant okay people). To say that God blessed them and put them there is silly and unfounded.

Lots of people experience the spirit of God

Lot's of people claim to have experienced other gods too. Hindus, Buddhists, every religion out there, claims to have spiritual experiences, encounters with whatever divine force or god they believe in. I've had spiritual experiences myself both when I was religious and after I lost my religion, they are hard-wired into our brains. We are a species built for 'spiritual' experience in a lot of ways, it is a mechanism for solidifying a community this is why religion is a communal process. We are communal animals, we have to be because we typically have our children one at a time and they are vulnerable after birth. Ever hear the phrase it takes a village to raise a child? This is partially true, it is part of why these communal mechanisms have evolved to be a part of us. New revelations are nothing more than epiphanies and philosophical realizations, there is no evidence of them being divine.

Without evidence there is no reason to believe in one particular god over another.

[edit on 25-3-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

God even killed even whole generation of people in Noah's flood, if you read between the lines and find hidden patterns in old ancient drawings you will find that these people were half breeds, half human half Angel corrupt bloodlines so they could infiltrate the coming Messiah bloodline, to stop the devil and his works taking control of good and evil.

As for their practices these were specific to the special keeping of these tribes in the presence of God, if one clan was a threat they had to be wiped out even their bloodline however young they were. Maybe with Christ everyone is able to be saved be is long lost half breeds bloodlines from thousands of years ago, maybe through Christ he can overcome their once cursed unreedable souls.

King David was meant to rid of the Philistines - Today Palestine’s but he did not, so the same war rages after thousands of years.

Prophecy has it they God will wipe them out, but Islamic prophecy the counterfeit says they will wipe-out the Jews along with their version of the coming of Jesus. Their bloodline war has been from the start, this may include other bloodlines like the illuminate and the royals and other ancient races making a comeback.

God has a purpose if you look into it properly. You can tell which people have positive experiences over negative ones by what they reap and sow as individuals or as nations.

To believe in Christ we are all of Abraham and free from bondage of ritualistic practices that were done away with when Jesus came into being to fulfil the Law. Those behind that line like the Jews and the Arabs have a harder line to live by when it is so easy to chose the free path and even those that do end up persecuted.


[edit on 26-3-2010 by The time lord]

reply to post by The time lord


So because they were Nephilim that gives God the right to brutally slaughter them? That's God, supposedly the good guy, committing blatant GENOCIDE that's weird, because he didn't kill Lucifer even after all the trouble Lucifer caused...

See even with the Nephilim that just raises more questions than it answers and none of it has any real evidence to back it up. It becomes a matter of faith... to me the stories in the Bible look like myths, exaggerated stories and supernatural happenings like any other myths and until the archeological evidence says otherwise that's all they will be.

The archealogicl evidence is in the hyrogliphs in Egypt and Babylon all telling of similar stories related to the Bible. There has been evidence but they won't tell you, giant mummies have been found, large fossilised footprints along with dinosaur prints next to humans. The problem is the gathering of all these lost clues, the Bible is the centre of finding all this out but lots of sects and groups try to hide it and ban it fom view. But not everyone needs hard evidence since the Bible is more than that but if one wishes to explore it then they could gather museums full of evidence to prove what the Bible says on the physical level like ancient hidden places and artifacts.

The curruption of bloodlines meant that from Adam to Jesus throughtout the ages was threatened, if that occured God would command a wipeout or plagues, because there would be no future saviour for manind who in turn has more th chance to save anyone.

Even Jesus confronted Satan when Jesus was tempted three times, his end will be at the tribulation while a few Billion other humans will be saved in the time between now and then. Man rejected Jesus but he won either way for us, the story is not over yet God has long term plans he will outwit Satan and his followers by using prophecies in which the Bible tells to show who has the overall authority from the start of time till the end, maybe heaven does not have a timeline like ours and this is the best proof to have.

The most documented Biblical event is the world-wide flood described in Genesis 6-9. A number of Babylonian documents have been discovered which describe the same flood.


Ancient tablet listing the Sumerian kings
[More information]The Sumerian King List (pictured here), for example, lists kings who reigned for long periods of time. Then a great flood came. Following the flood, Sumerian kings ruled for much shorter periods of time. This is the same pattern found in the Bible. Men had long life spans before the flood and shorter life spans after the flood. The 11th tablet of the Gilgamesh Epic speaks of an ark, animals taken on the ark, birds sent out during the course of the flood, the ark landing on a mountain, and a sacrifice offered after the ark landed.

The Story of Adapa tells of a test for immortality involving food, similar to the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Sumerian tablets record the confusion of language as we have in the Biblical account of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9). There was a golden age when all mankind spoke the same language. Speech was then confused by the god Enki, lord of wisdom. The Babylonians had a similar account in which the gods destroyed a temple tower and “scattered them abroad and made strange their speech.”

Text

There is a lot of historical information which cross reference the Bible with the same places mentioned having some form of record.

reply to post by Kapyong

But there is NO hard evidence for Jesus,

How laughably ignorant can somebody be. I'm sure you've heard of this
religion that's been around since Christ was hung on the cross by the Romans. Christ-ianity It happened at Calvary. All these big bombastic brains that can't get past the basics. No evidence for his existence? You only wish. Really
hard too. I don't have any clue why. Hate seems to be the most likely answer to that one.
Keep on making your claims though. Keep on trying to destroy the word of God the Bible.Gods Word ,Gods Son, INDESTRUCTIBLE. It's truely a crack up watching you bang your big brains again and again.:bnghd:
Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he walked the earth and died for our
sins. The Bible is Gods communication to us. It's a reliable history book.
It's a science book. Hell it's even a math book. Their both here to stay so get over it. lol

Titenskull

So because they were Nephilim that gives God the right to brutally slaughter them? That's God, supposedly the good guy, committing blatant GENOCIDE that's weird, because he didn't kill Lucifer even after all the trouble Lucifer caused...

It's only weird from your willfully limited experience and perception.
I understand it just fine.

[edit on 27-3-2010 by randyvs]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Kapyong

 

But there is NO hard evidence for Jesus,

How laughably ignorant can somebody be. I'm sure you've heard of this
religion that's been around since Christ was hung on the cross by the Romans. Christ-ianity It happened at Calvary. All these big bombastic brains that can't get past the basics. No evidence for his existence? You only wish. Really
hard too. I don't have any clue why. Hate seems to be the most likely answer to that one.
Keep on making your claims though. Keep on trying to destroy the word of God the Bible.Gods Word ,Gods Son, INDESTRUCTIBLE. It's truely a crack up watching you bang your big brains again and again.:bnghd:
Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he walked the earth and died for our
sins. The Bible is Gods communication to us. It's a reliable history book.
It's a science book. Hell it's even a math book. Their both here to stay so get over it. lol

Titenskull

So because they were Nephilim that gives God the right to brutally slaughter them? That's God, supposedly the good guy, committing blatant GENOCIDE that's weird, because he didn't kill Lucifer even after all the trouble Lucifer caused...

It's only weird from your willfully limited experience and perception.
I understand it just fine.

[edit on 27-3-2010 by randyvs]

A religion named after someone is not hard evidence that they existed. In fact, it is not evidence at all. I would love to see someone of the hard evidence that Jesus existed though.

There is not even a PARTICLE of evidence of the character named Jesus.
Not one.

For the bible thumpers who think they are wiser, and mention Josephus' account of Jesus, well, dont pat yourselves on the back as that has been easliy dismissed as a forgery, admitted even by christain scholars.

The evidence that we DO in fact have is that Jesus is in no way unique or original and is simply a plagiarized sun god of the MANY that existed BEFORE him. The story of Jesus consists of NOTHING new or unique. It is a story of newest mythical sun god, along with all of the other astoligical personifications to which the ancients were so interested in. All these myths, legends and personification of the heavenly bodies above is what the uneducated believe is real actual historical events. Complete silliness that unfortunately still exists in the minds of foolish humans to this day.

Another example of the foolishness, is the story of the flood starring the character Noah. For those that actually do SEARCH and SEEK for the truth, they would have discovered the story from which the Biblical flood was copied from -- the epic of Gilgamesh. IN FACT during the Biblical flood, EGYPTIANS RECORDS CONTINUED UNINTERRUPTED. Oh well, so much for the flooding of the entire world story being real.

So the only evidence that we have is that the Bible stories are the work of plagiarism, borrowing all the older myths and legends predating it. Only a fool can still believe in the bible after studying ancient myths and legends to which is all the evidence in the world to see that the Bible is a copy of myths and legends.

If you want to be truly impartial on this matter you must access the Bible on it's merits as a historical source.

The best type of historical source would be a primary source, ie. one written by first hand witnesses of events, at the time they occured and verified by independant outside sources of the same time. Is this the case with the bible, no, it was put together over a 1600 year time period!

Just because some heiroglyphs or archaeology support some events, people or places in the bible, does not mean that the vast proportion of it is historical fact. Others have already pointed this out but people are choosing to ignore that fact. No where outside of the bible are the existence or miracles of Jesus verified, nowhere!

Many people have offered vague references to some one who might have been called Jesus but this does not stand up to scrutiny. There is more evidence to support the existence of King Arthur than Jesus. It really is a challenge to quote one source that directly refers to Jesus of Nazereth, that does not originate from the bible, try it.

The bible is a collection of many different texts put together by MAN, it wasn't just beamed down from heaven as a complete tome. The first complete version of the bible was put together hundreds of years after the claimed events.
Writings that were collected together in this canon originally had no paragraphs or sentances. They were translated and re-interpreted adinfinitum, thus changing the 'primary source' status if it was ever present.

There where also books left out of this canon. Man, not god decided numerous texts were unsuitable for the 'bible'. The reasons for this are varied but more often than not political. If you are going to treat the bible as a historical text, why not treat the discarded books from the same period as fact too? If you did you would find crucial parts of the Jesus story to be contradicted, such as no resurrection or crucifixion, the jews being the killers of Jesus not the Romans. Why would you implicitly trust a text that was put together and edited by various organisations and political entities all with their own earthly agendas and goals?

I have no problem with people gaining spiritual insight from biblical texts but it is incorrect to say that as a whole the bible is an accurate historical source.

reply to post by SunIsSon


Very good points. The parallels between Jesus and many other gods (horus, Odin, Tammuz, Zoaraster to name a few!) is important, the fact that these gods predate Jesus by thousands of years should give you a big clue that Jesus is a mythical construct based on earlier dieties.

Originally posted by zaiger
However there were no historians to back up any of the new testamate claims. Historians from the time of jesus fail to mention him and works outside the bible than mention christ are written looooong after the fact.

Lets take a civil look at this specific Point.

Historians?

Definition
Historian (noun) someone who writes about or studies history
(Definition of historian from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

First, let's be frank. A Historian would have been an EDUCATED individual, and this would have limited the general interests in events surrounding Christ.

Paul was an Educated individual, and his forte, prior to becoming Paul, was the presecution of "Christains" as Saul.

Education of those capiable of writing and studing "History" at the time, would have a bias, above and beyond the Bias we see in the Press today.

Second, Historians of that time, would have been studing and writing about PAST HISTORY, and not CURRENT EVENTS.

They are not "Newpaper Reporters" or such.

As for what we have for example, are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, which recorded these events. One of whom was a Physician, and these are the Historian Views of a PAST EVENT/HISTORY being Preserved and Studied.

We must also remember another thing. "History" is written by the Victor, and in this case, neither the Scribes or Pharisees or the Influence of Rome would have an interest in publicizing any of the events or messages or ministry and utlimately death, let alone touch upon his resurrection. He was a flake, and a real concern to the Status Quo, and extinction in the quietest manner would be the choice de jour. Mass publication would not have occured anyways.

Just a couple of thoughts that do come to mind when reviewing your expressed concerns.

Ciao

Shane

reply to post by K J Gunderson

A religion named after someone is not hard evidence that they existed. In fact, it is not evidence at all. I would love to see someone of the hard evidence that Jesus existed though.

Why, Who makes this declaration? your pathetic puny self? What you think
or say means doodly squat. It's all the proof about eight billion people need. Keep trying though you may convince yourself
someday. Go read some more Dan Brown.lol

What's with the tat on your Avatar Gunther? You get Modsmacked?

[edit on 27-3-2010 by randyvs]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

A religion named after someone is not hard evidence that they existed. In fact, it is not evidence at all. I would love to see someone of the hard evidence that Jesus existed though.

Why, Who makes this declaration? your pathetic puny self? What you think
or say means doodly squat. It's all the proof about eight billion people need. Keep trying though you may convince yourself
someday. Go read some more Dan Brown.lol

What's with the tat on your Avatar Gunther? You get Modsmacked?

[edit on 27-3-2010 by randyvs]

Wow. I know I told you that you were being too nice but that did not mean you had to do a complete 180. Find a middle ground.

I am not declaring anything. I may be puny but what does that have to do with anything? Before it was generally accepted, what percentage of the population believed the world was round? 0% Did that make it so? Numbers do not make history.

When pressed for historical evidence of your Jesus, you resort to insulting me and telling me lots of people believe in him so I am wrong. Lots of people believe soap operas are real and Elvis is still alive as well. Lots of people believe lots of things. In fact, going by shear numbers, lots and lots and lots of people believe in Santa Claus. Just look up the census numbers for children in the US alone that celebrate xmas. Does that make Santa real?

You are smart enough to know that argument holds no water and I thought you were smart enough to know that simple minded personal attacks do very very little to prove Jesus was real.

reply to post by randyvs


What you have just said has far greater implications than you seem to realize. If Christ existed because there is a religion called Christianity then the same logic can be applied to Odinism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism (although there are historical documents showing Buddha existed), Hermeticism, Mithraism, etc. So, if you are willing to believe that Christ existed because there is a religion named after him are you also willing to believe that Odin, Zoroaster, Buddha, Hermes, and Mithras all existed?

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by randyvs

 

What you have just said has far greater implications than you seem to realize. If Christ existed because there is a religion called Christianity then the same logic can be applied to Odinism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism (although there are historical documents showing Buddha existed), Hermeticism, Mithraism, etc. So, if you are willing to believe that Christ existed because there is a religion named after him are you also willing to believe that Odin, Zoroaster, Buddha, Hermes, and Mithras all existed?

Thanks. I honestly could not think of any examples other than Buddha and I was not about to argue his existence to make the same point. Thanks for saying what I wished I could have.

Originally posted by The time lord
Maybe with Christ everyone is able to be saved be is long lost half breeds bloodlines from thousands of years ago, maybe through Christ he can overcome their once cursed unreedable souls.

This may not exactly be the case in respect to this commentary.

1 (ONE) Alone is destine to the Firey Pit, and that is Satan. I have not seen anywhere that suggests anyone else from the 6th Day until today, that is Predestined for this fate.

There MAYBE some of the Fallen, and the Hybred Offspring that could be also going, but there is no clear indicator of this, Biblically Speaking. Biblically, the Millenium Kingdom will pass onto Judgement Day, and choices will be made by us during the Kingdom Period, leading to Judgement Day. During this time, Satan is once more loosed, to gather all of those who wish to follow him. I do not know how long that line will actually be, since all will have a firm grasp of the Word of GOD, and full knowledge, Satan is about to persish for ever and ever to be never more.

Some will choose that fate for certain, and maybe all of the Fallen will follow due to their pledge made in the days of Jared. We will not know truly, until that day.

Got to go now, but more "Stuff to follow".

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by The time lord
The archealogicl evidence is in the hyrogliphs in Egypt and Babylon all telling of similar stories related to the Bible. There has been evidence but they won't tell you, giant mummies have been found, large fossilised footprints along with dinosaur prints next to humans.

Oh dear have you been sadly misinformed. Science is in the business of uncovering truth not hiding it. As I stated in my original reply there are a fringe group of religious zealots who postulate that scientists are hiding some evidence of the supernatural happenings of the Bible. These zealots refuse to accept legitimate evidence if that evidence does not support their religious bias. First off nothing has ever been shown to be supernatural, everything once believed supernatural that has been studied has been shown to have a natural explanation. The peer review scientific process doesn't allow for cover-ups and secrecy, in fact the very nature of the scientific method doesn't allow for such things. There isn't one favored outcome or discovery and there are not outcomes or discoveries that are thrown out unless they are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be forgeries (though more hoaxers go right to the press and don't go through proper channels).

The only hoaxes have been perpetrated BY those with religious agendas, not against them.

The human dino prints you mention have been debunked as ONLY fossil dinosaur footprints, seriously research it. All evidence suggesting human-dino cohabitation has been shown to be a deliberate hoax or to be based in the ignorance of those discovering the so called evidence.

I have heard reports of a few giant mummies but these are unsubstantiated and could easily be explained by it being simply an abnormally tall person (usually caused by a malfunction of the pituitary gland).

Again the only people being deceptive are those with specific religious, anti-science, agendas. Do scientists make mistakes? YES. Is there still a lot to learn about our history as a species? Undoubtedly yes. Is there some sinister conspiracy covering up evidence of the supernatural? Absolutely not. The supernatural, by definition, cannot be proven by natural means anyway so belief in it is relegated to the realm of faith.

I suggest you research legitimate archeology, not the anecdotal stories and repeatedly debunked forgeries of those with religiously motivated agendas.

[edit on 27-3-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by K J Gunderson

Before it was generally accepted, what percentage of the population believed the world was round? 0% Did that make it so? Numbers do not make history.

Actually it was found in Isaiah thousands of years ago. "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." Isaiah 40 v22

Job 26 v7 "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing"

What up?