Status of Women in Islam - Stopping the disinfo

No.

Common law are laws which are voted on by representatives voted on by individuals and are expected to not contravene a broad base of constituation limitations on the power of the state, and the clergy.

Islamic jurisprudence is acceptance amoungst scholars of Islam that consensus adheres to the specific and often caprious demands of hundreds upon hundreds of legal and moral commands given in several types of text of which the Quran is only one. The religion and the state have wide and sole latitude to enforce any behaviour with no regard to limitation thereof.

The religion and the state are protected from the individual in Islam. In common law countries with constitutional democracies, the individual is protected from the state and the clergy specifically.

Fundamentally different.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by dawnstar

 

I'm sure the Afghani people originally preferred the Taliban to the feuding warlords and (before that) the russians. However, they only put instituted their weird ideas AFTER they had consolidated power. There was no hidden agreement of the likes of "Yeah, these Taliban have promised to protect us, just so long as women shouldn't be taught or employed, TV should be banned, and men need a minimum beard length".


reply to post by Aeons

 

Isn't "consensus" also a "pillar" or normal democracy? Are you saying that if everyone came together and said "Lets ban church steeples", and did so, it would not be a little insane (despite not being wrong under democratic rules)?

[edit on 11-2-2010 by babloyi]

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
He thought it was great and he even named Iran do you know what Iran actually means?

No, Hitler did not name Iran en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Aeons

Originally posted by Aeons
The religion and the state are protected from the individual in Islam. In common law countries with constitutional democracies, the individual is protected from the state and the clergy specifically.

Really? While Christianity might have that "Give unto Ceaser's" bit and "Living by the law of the land", I see no backing for this in Islam. Any source I go to will clearly state that the only relevant text with regards to morality in Islam is the Quran and Hadith.

Some people may write books that they claim are "interpretations" of what they believe to be Islamic law (generally based off the Quran or Hadith if they want any sort of credence), but this is in no way relevant to any other persons.


PS: Godwin's Law? Really?
Are you that lacking for actual substance? And Iran was named by Hitler?
I'm going to star your post just for that comment. It really got me laughing!

[edit on 11-2-2010 by babloyi]

Great post, Jinni....I really admire your bravery and I sympathize with what you are trying to do.

However, I have to ask a question. For several years now I've been reading horrific autobiographies (Burned Alive...Souad, is particularly heartwrenching) and have seen countless news stories about the way women are treated in some Muslim countries. What I have always wondered is, where are the Muslim women to deny these stories?

ATS is huge, wouldn't you agree? And this topic has stirred up quite a lot of interest....and yet in the entire post I only read one comment from a Muslim woman. Surely there are other Muslim women on ATS. If so, I ask that you please report in. Tell us what its really like for you where you live. Some of us truly are interested in getting past propaganda and finding the answers.

reply to post by Jinni


For a moment there, I thought you were another propagandists. Reasonable post and an interesting read. Thanks for posting.

You can't blame people for getting the wrong idea though, when we see women being put to death or receiving lashes in the video's.

I have a business next door to me that caters to people from parts of Africa and the Middle East. When his customers come in with their Wives, they never make eye contact and they never speak. I made the mistake the other day of saying something to a woman from the Sudan and she looked at her feet and tried to melt into the wall. Her Husband came out of the back room and looked at her like he was going to hit her, grabbed her and drug her out of the store.

I just walked in to buy something and she was alone with me for only a few seconds, but that fear in her eyes is stuck in my head. I don't know if she was punished or not. I hope not, but I've worried about it since. I was never closer than ten feet from her but that look in her Husbands eyes freaked me out.

Another time I walked in to buy something and another Muslim woman was sitting in the same chair. I thought she was running the register so I started to hand her the money and a teenage boy came running out in a panic and got between me and her and grabbed the money. He was very angry with me and looked like he wanted to kill me.

You must be able to see when we witness this treatment of Muslim women first hand, we tend to think it has at least something to do with the Faith. I did not hallucinate either of those experiences. I'm still fearful the woman in the first encounter got beat for just being accidentally within ten feet of a man. Her husbands eyes were scary. He smiled at me as if to say not your fault, I'll teach her a lesson.

Even though I'm very friendly with the actual owner, I'll never go near there again when his Sudanese customers are there. He is Christian from Ethiopia oddly enough. Nice fellow and really like him. He's trying to teach the refuge's from the Sudan how to do things like paying for things in stores and how to take care of bank accounts and what not. Only the men come to his classes however. Apparently the women are not allowed and when one of them has a Wife with them, they sit out in the store and wait. Sometimes for hours.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by dawnstar

 

No, actually it IS a minority. It is a minority of people who banded together under the banner of "Taliban" and took over Afghanistan and implemented their crazy version of Islam. It is a minority ruling class that allows an extremist version of the religion in Saudi Arabia so as to keep down the masses.

Bombeni, it always gets me laughing to read your posts. Such hilarious absurd statements. Carry on!

Its a minority in Afghan? extemism and barbarism?
look at the links and then let me explain.



Say hello to Anjem Choudary!
He believes in the very old ways of islam, wants to implement sharia law and treats women as 2nd class, 3rd class even.

Here are some of his followers who want his kind of Islam.


Here are some of those who you call a minority who follow Anjem choudarys bacwards look at Islam.



Now I post this because its not on youtube yet but soon will be.
Anjem Choudary was on a british tv chat show called The Alan Titmarsh show just 3 days ago, joining him was a christian women and a beautiful young modern muslim women.

Boy did that modern muslim women lay into him, saying he was backwards, living in the dark ages and does not follow Islam as she does or any modern muslims do.

He got angry, he wouldnt let the muslim women have her point at all, he would not answer direct questions because he knows he is in the wrong.

The problem is, he is a preacher, many muslims do follow him and preach and follow the kind of Islam he see's.

Now you cant tell me its a minority because just from the pictures and youtube video I posted, it shows just one town, how many muslims follow him and islam4uk.

This has bad implications for women who are muslim in the UK because he wants Sharia law in this country, a toned down version of sharia law is already operating in the country.

I can give you plenty of old headlines of muslim women being abused, killed, kidnapped.

Ok its still a percentage game, how many are really treating the women bad I dont know, but the way the media portrays it, its quite alot.









yeh right.

Originally posted by Jinni
There are many deaths in Western world resulting from pedophilia, child abuse, women abuse that is astronomically high and increasing.

Exactly the same as in the Muslim world....

reply to post by Blaine91555


Thank you for sharing your experiences. I hope more will do so.

This is what I'm interested in....hearing from the everyday person about their encounters with Muslim women. I think there is where we will find the truth.

The story about meeting the woman in the store....that haunts me.

reply to post by Blaine91555

Oh, WOOWWWW!

My first double post!!!!! I think this means I'm an officeal member of ATS now!!!!!

[edit on 11-2-2010 by smyleegrl]

Islamic jurisprudence isn't some study made by a couple of guys who wrote some books that are just to be dismissed.

www.religlaw.org...

All your human rights are divinely inspired, and are defined for you. If it isn't in these writings it isn't a human right. Nice circular logic there eh.

You are equal in DIGNITY. Not reality. You have superiority by piety. Piety is defined by your willingness to submit to Allah. That submission is defined for you and you are equal only when you submit utterly to what you've been told your place is. That place is specified quite distinctly in Islamic writing.

Protection of society is paramount.

Little pointers should show you this. All people are given the right to marriage. They aren't given the right to ABSTAIN from marriage. If a man is unmarriable of his own accord he has a religious and judicial human right to be married to some woman.

Marriage is a societal instituation.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Aeons

 

Originally posted by Aeons
The religion and the state are protected from the individual in Islam. In common law countries with constitutional democracies, the individual is protected from the state and the clergy specifically.

Really? While Christianity might have that "Give unto Ceaser's" bit and "Living by the law of the land", I see no backing for this in Islam. Any source I go to will clearly state that the only relevant text with regards to morality in Islam is the Quran and Hadith.

Some people may write books that they claim are "interpretations" of what they believe to be Islamic law (generally based off the Quran or Hadith if they want any sort of credence), but this is in no way relevant to any other persons.


PS: Godwin's Law? Really?

Are you that lacking for actual substance? And Iran was named by Hitler?

I'm going to star your post just for that comment. It really got me laughing!

[edit on 11-2-2010 by babloyi]

[edit on 2010/2/11 by Aeons]

How about we quit the conjecture and hearsay, and actually interview a burqa-wearing traditional Muslim women about what she feels about women's rights in Islam?

I decided to do that an made a thread about it www.abovetopsecret.com...

Well another post ruined by some ignorant, uneducated, brainwashed idiots. GUYS GET WITH THE PROGRAM, JINNI ISN'T TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS THAT HAPPENED IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, HE IS TALKING ABOUT ISLAM, THAT MEANS THE QURAN AND THE HADITH. HE BROUGHT VERSES AND HADITHS, AND NONE OF YOU HAD THE GUTS TO REFUTE HIM, IN MY BOOK THAT LABELS ALL OF YOU AS BRAINWASHED FOOLS. I challenge anyone, whether that be bombidiot, or subjective truth who i can swear sounds like a teenager, to bring verses from the quran, find the worst possible verses you can find about women, and ill bring my verses from the bible. What do ya say? you up for it?

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

Yep. Only what he didn't bring is a dictionary helping that told a western reader that the terms he was using don't mean the same thing in the context of Islam.

And that is the program.

We aren't debating the essential difference between the Bible and the Quran.

Western laws have constitutional limitations based on fairly broad simple documents outlining the limitations of the state and the protections of individuals.

Islamic law is based on having the Quran, and all associated writings as their constitution limiting the individual to the behaviour expectations defined there in.

We aren't arguing Leviticus and Deuteronomy vs the Quran. Or the New Testament vs. the Hadith.

No matter how much you want it to be so.

[edit on 2010/2/11 by Aeons]

reply to post by Aeons


So i take it as a "no"? Yup didn't think so. Its no fact that the same people who are bashing muslims, are getting these info from the news or "oh well i saw a women in youtube who says she got raped and was sold to a horny 60 year old man". These people are simply ignorant, WILL ANYONE ACCEPT MY INVITATION? HOW ABOUT YOU BOMBIDIOT, OR SUBJECTIVE TRUTH

Originally posted by pujols5
Well another post ruined by some ignorant, uneducated, brainwashed idiots. GUYS GET WITH THE PROGRAM, JINNI ISN'T TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS THAT HAPPENED IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, HE IS TALKING ABOUT ISLAM, THAT MEANS THE QURAN AND THE HADITH. HE BROUGHT VERSES AND HADITHS, AND NONE OF YOU HAD THE GUTS TO REFUTE HIM, IN MY BOOK THAT LABELS ALL OF YOU AS BRAINWASHED FOOLS. I challenge anyone, whether that be bombidiot, or subjective truth who i can swear sounds like a teenager, to bring verses from the quran, find the worst possible verses you can find about women, and ill bring my verses from the bible. What do ya say? you up for it?

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

yes but people like who I have posted about, perverts the koran!
I will get this interview I was talking about, Anjem choudary is using the koran how it was written years ago and interpretting it in its original form this muslim women said, muslims of today, interpret it different.

doesnt matter what it is or isnt, its how its interpreted, and how many people interpret it differently.

[edit on 11-2-2010 by Sparkey76]

Originally posted by Aeons
Yep. Only what he didn't bring is a dictionary helping that told a western reader that the terms he was using don't mean the same thing in the context of Islam.


[edit on 2010/2/11 by Aeons]

Excellent post! You know, many years ago, I had to help my sister get out of a religious cult. But before I could help her, I had to know how the words the cult used, that sounded like words I would use, had an entirely different meaning within the cult. This would be the same set-up.

Originally posted by pujols5
Well another post ruined by some ignorant, uneducated, brainwashed idiots. GUYS GET WITH THE PROGRAM, JINNI ISN'T TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS THAT HAPPENED IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, HE IS TALKING ABOUT ISLAM, THAT MEANS THE QURAN AND THE HADITH. HE BROUGHT VERSES AND HADITHS, AND NONE OF YOU HAD THE GUTS TO REFUTE HIM, IN MY BOOK THAT LABELS ALL OF YOU AS BRAINWASHED FOOLS. I challenge anyone, whether that be bombidiot, or subjective truth who i can swear sounds like a teenager, to bring verses from the quran, find the worst possible verses you can find about women, and ill bring my verses from the bible. What do ya say? you up for it?

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

Doesn't really matter what the Quaran says when the leadershp of the religion teaches otherwise does it......jeeze, when the local imams say something contradictory who do they listen to, the book or the person?

Originally posted by adifferentbreed

Originally posted by pujols5
Well another post ruined by some ignorant, uneducated, brainwashed idiots. GUYS GET WITH THE PROGRAM, JINNI ISN'T TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS THAT HAPPENED IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, HE IS TALKING ABOUT ISLAM, THAT MEANS THE QURAN AND THE HADITH. HE BROUGHT VERSES AND HADITHS, AND NONE OF YOU HAD THE GUTS TO REFUTE HIM, IN MY BOOK THAT LABELS ALL OF YOU AS BRAINWASHED FOOLS. I challenge anyone, whether that be bombidiot, or subjective truth who i can swear sounds like a teenager, to bring verses from the quran, find the worst possible verses you can find about women, and ill bring my verses from the bible. What do ya say? you up for it?

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

Doesn't really matter what the Quaran says when the leadershp of the religion teaches otherwis
e does it......jeeze, when the local imams say something contradictory who do they listen to, the book or the person?

GUYS JUST A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER WOULD SUFFICE FOR AN ANSWER. And pal, no, what the imams do or what people do doesn't mean its islam. IAM TALKING ABOUT THE QURAN OR HADITH, BRING IT, OR SHUT UP. AND ILL BRING THEM FROM THE BIBLE.

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

Originally posted by pujols5

Originally posted by adifferentbreed

Originally posted by pujols5
Well another post ruined by some ignorant, uneducated, brainwashed idiots. GUYS GET WITH THE PROGRAM, JINNI ISN'T TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS THAT HAPPENED IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, HE IS TALKING ABOUT ISLAM, THAT MEANS THE QURAN AND THE HADITH. HE BROUGHT VERSES AND HADITHS, AND NONE OF YOU HAD THE GUTS TO REFUTE HIM, IN MY BOOK THAT LABELS ALL OF YOU AS BRAINWASHED FOOLS. I challenge anyone, whether that be bombidiot, or subjective truth who i can swear sounds like a teenager, to bring verses from the quran, find the worst possible verses you can find about women, and ill bring my verses from the bible. What do ya say? you up for it?

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

Doesn't really matter what the Quaran says when the leadershp of the religion teaches otherwis
e does it......jeeze, when the local imams say something contradictory who do they listen to, the book or the person?

GUYS JUST A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER WOULD SUFFICE FOR AN ANSWER. And pal, no, what the imams do or what people do doesn't mean its islam. IAM TALKING ABOUT THE QURAN OR HADITH, BRING IT, OR SHUT UP. AND ILL BRING THEM FROM THE BIBLE.

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

First shouting is bad manners, secondly telling someone to shut up, bad manners, third, I'm not a Christian....so it would be a mute point to have that arguement with me. However...........if the imams aren't islam, why do they make the rulings and tell the people what to do? Seems that's contradictory to have a religious leader have the people commit acts that contradict the religions holy word.

Originally posted by adifferentbreed

Originally posted by pujols5

Originally posted by adifferentbreed

Originally posted by pujols5
Well another post ruined by some ignorant, uneducated, brainwashed idiots. GUYS GET WITH THE PROGRAM, JINNI ISN'T TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS THAT HAPPENED IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, HE IS TALKING ABOUT ISLAM, THAT MEANS THE QURAN AND THE HADITH. HE BROUGHT VERSES AND HADITHS, AND NONE OF YOU HAD THE GUTS TO REFUTE HIM, IN MY BOOK THAT LABELS ALL OF YOU AS BRAINWASHED FOOLS. I challenge anyone, whether that be bombidiot, or subjective truth who i can swear sounds like a teenager, to bring verses from the quran, find the worst possible verses you can find about women, and ill bring my verses from the bible. What do ya say? you up for it?

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

Doesn't really matter what the Quaran says when the leadershp of the religion teaches otherwis
e does it......jeeze, when the local imams say something contradictory who do they listen to, the book or the person?

GUYS JUST A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER WOULD SUFFICE FOR AN ANSWER. And pal, no, what the imams do or what people do doesn't mean its islam. IAM TALKING ABOUT THE QURAN OR HADITH, BRING IT, OR SHUT UP. AND ILL BRING THEM FROM THE BIBLE.

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

[edit on 11-2-2010 by pujols5]

First shouting is bad manners, secondly telling someone to shut up, bad manners, third, I'm not a Christian....so it would be a mute point to have that arguement with me. However...........if the imams aren't islam, why do they make the rulings and tell the people what to do? Seems that's contradictory to have a religious leader have the people commit acts that contradict the religions holy word.

Well if my fake "shouting" irritates you, then please leave. Idont mean to shout or anything, i just want someone to refute jinni's comments from his first post. Just yes or no. And for the last time what the imam says, doesn't mean its islam.Then do you mean all those priests who raped teenagers were doing it for the name of christ? .AGAIN JUST THE QURAN AND THE HADITH. GOT IT?