Why is the skeptic's viewpoint so often attacked?, page 1

reply to post by DrJay1975

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A few things came to my mind reading your post.. First of all, the way you describe it, count me in as a skeptic to. I try to base my opinions as close on the scientific method as possible. But we humans have tendencies/inclinations that go against that principle; we love black/white scenarios, easy explanations, scapegoats and mumbo jumbo. We are psycholgically disposed to like this kind of stuff; as it offers us a reduction of a complex reality that often overwhelms our ability to understand things completely or satisfactoraly.

But one thing bothers me about your post: That some people have serious mental problems is obvious to anyone who reads this site. Pointing it out, or slinging the label around is still not a good idea. Fight for the truth (or logic, or rationality) by countering falsehoods with facts and asking logical questions.
Assigning mental illness as a motivation for a ridiculous post says nothing about the content of the post - in fact it is a form of Bulverism (a special kind of ad hominem argument where one argues against the posters motivation for posting) and as such is a logical fallacy that can't help in the fight for reason.





By the way, YEAHRIGHT; I love your sig. Gravity's Rainbow is one of my favorites and theproverbs for paranoids are just beyond genius... Wow, that book rocked! I just had to say that.

[edit on 5-2-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

reply to post by DrJay1975

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You've raised valid points, as you're aware

And yes, some do become agitated when asked if the paranormal or other unusual event might not be evidence of mental illness. Some do become angry and defensive

At least part of the reason, I'm sure, is that paranormal events are basically unable to be proved and most people realise this. It puts the experiencer at a great disadvantage, as self-styled sceptics are only too aware and keen to exploit

For this reason, most news reports featuring the paranormal or, for example, alien or UFO sightings, tend to preface the report by establishing the character and reliability of the claimed experiencer/witness. For instance, a report may state that the witness is a police or ambulance officer of X-year's experience and is a respected family man/member of the community

For the same reason, no doubt, most witnesses and experiencers attempt to establish their reliability within their online account of the experience. They might state, for example, that they are a chartered accountant or 'solid, reliable student' or whatever

People put themselves on the line when they report these incidents. It's their reputation at stake in many instances, particularly if their account is reported by the media

After the fifth or sixth retelling of the experience, particularly online, the experiencer undoubtedly feels a bit tired of having to provide themselves a character reference to total strangers and tired of sitting like a fair-ground duck ... a sitting target for strangers to ridicule, discredit, insult, deride

And let's face it, asking someone if they might have a mental illness is fairly provocative under the circumstances. It suggest the person is either lying or mentally unstable. Therefore, it's understandable that the person --- who's already under strain from having to relate something that they realise will be very difficult for others to believe -- might react less calmly than they would wish

For example, when attending police officers question witnesses to an accident or murder, they do not ask the witnesses, ' That sounds unbelievable, quite frankly. Is it possible you dreamed or imagined it ? Maybe you should get yourself checked out to see if you have a mental illness '

Same in court. When witnesses to an accident or murder or crime are called to recount to judge and jury what they witnessed, it's presumed they are providing an honest and factual account, despite that the tale may be almost unbelievable. But we don't hear defence lawyers saying, 'You've claimed the defendant painted himself blue, wrapped himself in a plastic tablecloth, poured ketchup over himself before grabbing a child's kite and leaping from the fourth floor balcony. We find that very difficult to accept. Unbelievable in fact. Are you quite sure you don't suffer from a mental illness ? '

And it's as well to remember that when police-officer Jones testifies in court re: an incident, he is believed. Yet when the same officer, one week later, reports that his vehicle and radio lost power on X-road, simultaneous with the appearance of an unidentified flying object which caused him to lose fifteen minutes --- he will risk his career, credibility and may well be asked, in forums such as this, ' Have you ruled out any possibility of mental illness ' ?

Yes, people lie and invent things and yes, some of the posts in this and other fora are untrue. People post them for attention. Others post lies and fantasies because they do have mental illness

They do a disservice to genuine experiencers and witnesses. And they make it more difficult for those genuine people and also, in some cases, cause genuine people (along with the fantasists) to become indignant when their mental stability is questioned

Unfortunately, there's no way of avoiding these areas of conflict for either sceptics or experiencers, as things currently stand

reply to post by TheCoffinman

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tho i think its important for skeptics to be on a forum like ATS, ATS was created for the purpose of exploring ideas and investigating conspiracies. skepticism is ignorance, its close-minded mundane earth-centric human superior knowledge mindset and thats just bull.

With respect, you are painting every skeptic with the same brush.

I object to that.

There are distinct differences between those who have the ability - or just plain commonsense – to be able to stand back and maintain a balanced opinion based on wanting to gain some modicum of the truth via methodological means, and those who just blindly deny and attack because a subject matter clashes with a deeply held belief.

They are not both definitions of skeptics, and they are in this for vastly different reasons.

I’ve been accused of being a dis-info agent here on ATS on several occasions. It made me laugh.

I have also been put on ignore by members because I couldn’t intellectually cede to claims that I believed were spurious, and because I continued to contend with the claimants when their purportedly “higher” intelligence slipped to reveal all-too normal responses.

What I am is curious – I truly do hold beliefs that I would dearly love to be proven - but what I am not is gullible. I won’t believe – or even entertain – everything I read. No, it doesn’t have to fit into my paradigm, but it does have to have a modicum of scholarly and cerebral honesty.

On the flip side, if I were shown unequivocal proof/reasoning that I was wrong I would have to accept it, no matter how it may hurt, to maintain the truthfulness I owe to myself .

What we are forgetting is that the internet supplies a perfect stage for anyone who is even remotely capable of learning facts – or even fictions posing as truth – to pose as an expert/guru/contactee/insider. You can seemingly choose your own designation as long as you have enough data to back it up to gain followers.

Are we to seriously believe that this site has as amongst its members several time-travelers, aliens, angels etc., or is it more likely that the possibility exists that they might be on these boards but, more importantly, ordinary people will – for various reasons – make up the numbers in the meantime because they can?

Originally posted by DrJay1975
I don't think I am the person you refer to, but I feel compelled to respond to your post. Hope you don't mind, it certainly looks like you are looking for some feedback here.

I've been wondering something for awhile now. When I look at a conspiracy or a paranormal event I always try to eliminate the conventional explanations before moving on to something more far fetched. Now this has happened in several threads but a recent post kind of caught my eye. I posted a question to one of our enlightened time traveler members who had the secrets to the universe and was nice enough to share them with us. Yay. He told us to ask any serious questions that we'd like an answer to. My question was how do you know your time travel, astral projection, communication with aliens and spirits, etc.... is not a mental disorder. That is a logical question isn't it?

DrJay1975, I have been diagnosed with a mental illness. Bi-Polar to be exact. Highly educated doctors said this of me, they read in their books that other "normal" thinking doctors also thought made a person a Bi-Polar.
I have been in the mental hospital with other Bi-Polars several times, I went through some changes after I was in a wreck that disabled me for life, and ended my work and play forever. Guess what? The other Bi-Polars in there were like me, and we could all easily agree that the staff was the ones who were mental, I mean, look at them! Take a good hard look at those who label others, because the one who labels sees nothing but the label after that.

I didn't read the post you speak of here, but I get the drift, someone else has astral traveled and shown things most are not allowed to see, for some reason. DrJay, I too have been taken, taken many places in the universe, and the things I have seen have made me the way i am today, defined my entire personality. I really don't know why everyone is not afforded this...it puzzles me why they are not. You question is a logical one, from one point of view, but mental illness is not a tangible thing, it is not something one "catches" from someone else, you don't get it because you went out without a coat. Personally, I don't believe "mental illness" exists. It is just a label to try to explain why one person lives on a higher plane that most others do.

If you claim one of these things, well that's one thing. But if you claim an entire page's worth of otherworldly claims about yourself including knowing the answers to all of humanities great questions is another. Isn't it a natural thing to wonder if the person is mentally ill or truly enlightened? And if he holds the keys to the universe then he should be able to answer that question right? I mean if you've time traveled and been shown all 7 layers of the universe then you ought to be able to tell me why you don't have a mental illness.

Because he/she cannot explain what they saw and experienced. Have you never experienced a thing, an event, that simply could not be explained in a conventional manner? These kind of things happen to all of us, you included.Does't mean anyone is mental. I have seen a great deal of things in my long life that cannot be explained using conventional science, or conventional anything, out of this world things. If you have read me you surely have read some of these. Am I mental too? There is that little "Ignore" button for those posts you really should not read.

So I ask that question. I don't say your mentally ill. I ask how do you know you aren't delusional. And several other posters retaliate with their comments. Examples are "Why do you wonder if all enlightened people are mentally ill". It's ignorant to assume that someone has a mental illness because they talk to aliens. Etc.... So essentially my question which wasn't even an opinion gets attacked and I get called ignorant because I'm looking for a far more likely answer than the one the OP provided before moving on to the supernatural or farfetched.

I know, you are simply trying to find a way to define these people without hurting the person. Very commendable thing on your part. I think when a person becomes "Enlightened," they begin to use parts of the brain never used before. This would fall into the realm of the unknown for doctors, it happened to me. I was told that parts of my brain not normally active had come into play following a head injury and scull fracture. I once asked a psychiatrist why he always wanted me to take mind altering drugs? His answer took me by surprise, to say the least. "Your mind works way up here," he said, indicating by holding his hand up as high as he could. "I need you to come down here, " he said, "so that I can understand you." This said it all to me. I never took another MAO inhibitor, or any other mind altering drug.

I understand this is a conspiracy site but isn't the motto "Deny Ignorance"? Why is it more ignorant to look for a logical answer rather than just assuming everyone who talks to aliens and communes with the gods is telling the truth. Why are people so scared of having these statements analyzed? Why is it wrong to question an "enlightened person" when the person who thinks it's wrong trashes people for having blind faith in religion?

First of all, let us define "ignorance."
"the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc."
dictionary.reference.com...

So we deny ignorance here by learning new things, so that we will no longer be ignorant. Am I right here? Truth is a matter of perspective, one person's truth is another's lie, that is human nature friend. You can believe that when I first encountered an alien craft, I used all of the logic my mind could muster, and all of the intelligence too, but neither could prepare me for what I saw and felt.

I too think it is wrong to trash a person for their belief system, their faith in a certain religion, or a certain dogma. The right thing to do is to present a different way of thinking to them, and attempt a wake up call. If you tell a Christian their God is not real, they will react in a manner like you spoke of earlier. If you can show evidence, or a lack of same, and keep it civil, the result is different. We all come here to learn, except for a few trolls, and some kids. Everyone tries to create an online presence that suits them, many people are lonely, and the internet is their only friend. and, never forget this; everyone is not as well read as you, and everyone does't spend all day surfing for new information.

Here's my point, the purpose of this site is to discover the truth. The truth in itself doesn't care who you are. The truth can be mundane or fantastical. And the percieved truth should be analyzed with equal scrutiny no matter if it's fantastical or the status quo. Don't be scared of the truth. To all of the people out there who feel the need to attack percieved skeptics, stop it. I'm not a skeptic. I analyze information without judging it. When I analyze someone's statements my intent isn't to prove my point, it's to discover the truth. It doesn't matter if it's my viewpoint that I'm proving wrong or whether it's someone elses. It's about the truth. And you can't discover the truth without questioning it. If you want everyone to make the assumption that all these farfetched theories are true and that they don't deserve the same scrutiny or criticism as the percieved societal norm, then you have an issue. Mundane, farfetched; it doesn't matter. Let's get to the bottom of everything.If you assume that these otherworldly things are all true then your just as bad as the people who hide the farfetched from us today.

Good advice. We have to ask questions, and never take anything at purely face value. The eyes are the worst pervader of truth. What we see is not always the reality of it. Some posts here have a little truth surrounded by a lot of myths, and some are a lot of truth with very little myth. We all have a built in truth meter, so use it. And remember, one man's reality may not be anything like you own. Just because a person lives within a different reality does not automatically mean the person is mentally ill.




[edit on 7-2-2010 by autowrench]

reply to post by yeahright

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Originally posted by yeahright
I think you've answered your own question. What possible response would you expect to a question like that? If someone did have a mental disorder, would you expect them to have a sudden epiphany due to the question and say, "Yeah, I guess I'm just nuts".

You can think it, you can assume it, but it isn't going to further a discussion, which is why we're here. It's a trollish attempt at deflection and thread killing.

Prove to me you don't have a mental disorder. Not so easy, is it?

Physician, heal thyself.

I thought we were here to deny ignorance, right? You're right about the extreme unlikelihood of an epiphany, however, is the agenda for furthering discussion so strong that criticisms should be kept to ourselves?

I mean, if we have seen scientific proof of delusions, false memories, and hallucinations, why is it taboo to suggest that anyone is experiencing known phenomena? Maybe in the real world it is taboo, ugly, wrong, weird or bad to have a delusion or hallucination or such, but come on, on ats? I think it would be awesome to discuss my hallucinations or visions or astral traveling, (whatever it turned out to be) on ats, and I agree with the OP that trashing and bashing on merely the suggestion is, well, silly!

If we're so happy to accept this type of thing as being spiritual, multidimensional, extra terrestrial, or holy, why is a purely mental phenomenon so bad? Is it so bad to be nuts?

On ATS we shouldn't discriminate or belittle those who are nuts, if we could accept the suggestion of mental phenomena without the discrimination, belittling, and demeaning responses then maybe those of us who are nuts can come to understand what is happening, rather then promoting something that could make the condition worse.

Reply to post by DrJay1975

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I would imagine for simular reasons as why skeptical viewpoints are used to attack. The great egotistical game of "I'm right and you're not.".

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