Two things.

If you studied Mithraism as closely as you claim, you will realise that Constantine didn't convert because of a comet. In fact he didn't convert at all until he lay on his death bed, and even then, he probably didn't have much choice. Constantine didn't have a lot of time for Christianity, contrary to what we are led to believe. He chaired the Council of Nicea (the first real founding of Orthodoxy) but half the time couldn't even be bothered to turn up.
In all probability, the story of the cross in the sky was created by the Church. It certainly added to the story and stated that later that night, Constantine was visited by Jesus in a dream. It should also be noted that the cross which adorned the shields of Constantine's army was not the Christian cross.

Secondly, the Crusades weren't undertaken because of astrology. Astrology may have played a part in it once it was underway though as it was pretty much viewed as a science back then. It's likely that once the decision to Crusade was made, astrological factors were taken into account but they were used as an aid and not a means. There are plenty of accounts of crusading armies waiting on astrology before attacking their enemies in the Holy Land.
The Crusades were also never undertaken to rebuild King Solomon's Temple. There is absolutely no evidence for this and indeed, it proves the contrary. There is a theory that the Knights Templar stabled their horses on the site and excavated underneath but there was never the slightest attempt to repair or recreate the building. When you remember the amount of fortresses and castles that were built in the Holy Land during the time of the Crusades you can see that the Temple was not a priority at all.
The timing for the Crusades was based on a much more mundane factor. Competing kings, barons and knights came into power and looked to the Church for consolidation. The best way to gain this was by crusading in the name of Christianity.

Its an interesting theory, however I have done extensive research on the Crusades and there is no evidence to support the idea. As leveller pointed out, competion among royals and the religious zealotry were the main causes. Additionally I've not seen anything that would point to a belief in the a soon-coming end of the world. In fact the majority of Europeans went on the Crusades with the intent of staying there for a while, going so far as to setting up a Kingdom of Jerusalem with a European King. As for the claim that "no attempt to explain why the Crusades began when they did" I think that if you delve farther into the history you'll see that there have been countless volumes dedicated to this particular topic.

The story of Constantine's conversion doesn't come from the church. It comes from Constatine himself. The meteor can't be argued - it is a well - known event in the area at the time. Did you even click on the link to look at it for yourself? It hit with the force of about 100 tons of TNT. It wasn't a mystery, it was a catastrophe in the era in which it hit. It fell in the time of constantine, and would have been impossible to miss as it came down. It would have been a huge, noisy, smoky fireball, and he explosion would have been like a small nuclear bomb. In the quietness of the ancient world, it would have litterally been heard and seen for hundred of miles.

Why is it so hard for you to accept this? You can go stand in the crater yourself if you want, it's not like it's a myth with no evidence.

As far as the Crusades go, I don't think the medieval church would have ignored the many strange astronomical events of the late 11th century. I think that a little bit of reasoning, and perhaps some insight on Christian belief systems, to understand the kind of ideas these amazing events would generate. Look at what happened to modern Christians just because the calender flipped to 2000? Or Hale-Bopp? "Signs from above and below" are sought after by Christians all the time, and there is a strong correlation between the events of the 11th century and great signs from "above and below".

You have to use your own reasoning for this one, that's why it's just a theory, but don't be so fast to shoot it down. It seems rather obvious to me.

And what's the deal with Mithras? I never studied that mystery school. I don't see what the big deal is about it. It's just another sun cult.

And also, el topo, you seem to think the standard history-book explanation for the crusades are all there is to it. That's not very ATS-minded! YOu have to put yourself in the minds of the leaders and the rulers at the time. If I were looking for a reason to stir up the populace into war, I would need more than just "compeetition between royals" or the general religious zealotry of Christianity. The crusades were not a normal war - you have to convince people to travell half way across the continent in a time when such journeys often were fatal, you can't do that for just the traditional reasons. The people really had to think the Lord was going to return in the next few years, which is why I say these signs in the heavens were the catalyst for it.

That's why the crusades didn't start in, say, 800, or 900, or 1200, but right after this string of amazing events convinced the laity and the peasantry the Christ REALLY WAS returning SOON. That is why they went to Jerusalem, and not anywhere else.

So you figure it out!

Ark

Originally posted by Arkaleus
If I were looking for a reason to stir up the populace into war, I would need more than just "compeetition between royals" or the general religious zealotry of Christianity. The crusades were not a normal war - you have to convince people to travell half way across the continent in a time when such journeys often were fatal, you can't do that for just the traditional reasons.

Anyone participating in the crusades was promised they would be forgiven of all their sins (including those committed during the Crusades). Basically a "get into Heaven Free card". That was more than enough convincing for anyone, low-born or high-born, to go off on the Crusades. Proof: Leo IV, "Forgiveness of Sins for those Who Dies in Battle" circa 850, John VIII "Indulgence for Fighting the Heathen" circa 878. The Crusades were started to free the Holy Land from the "heathen" Turks who had been attacking Christians attempting to make pilgrimages.

As to your comments of "not being ATS minded".. If I had completely dismissed your theory outright I would have never responded. Everything you presented is completely within the realm of possibility. However, that doesn't mean that it actually happened. You offer theories, but no proof. All of the cosmic events you listed actually happened but point us toward somewhere they are referrenced in relation to the Crusades. You've not shown the correlation between these events (i'm speaking to the part about the crusades, not constantine) only the possibility of a correlation but no proof. I welcome any discussion we can have about this based upon something more than an assumption.

The concept of correlating astronomical events and alignments to activities here on earth is a science only now being rediscovered. To the ancients, the heavens were closely studied, for they beieved the activities of men were directly influenced by the motions of stars of planets.

In the 11th century CE, Astrology was the science of the heavens, they had not yet established the concept in their minds as we do today. The fact that these events occured must therefore logically mean that their meaning was sought after, analyzed, and understood by the sages of the day, and there was no greater concentation of such minds in the west than in the Roman Church.

It is silly to think that these events, as major as they were, didn't have a direct bearing on the trends and decisions of the time. Recall that the business of kings was the consult astrologers, and wars, business, and civil matters were often timed and according to the movements of the heavens.

In modern times, it is easy to forget how the ancients thought about such matters. In today's secular culture, the heavens have no bearing at all, and the actiivties of state are entirely secular, or revolve around profane matters only.

So just because the modern books you have read neglect to make this connection, doesn't mean that there isn't one. That's why I posted this: It is a rediscovery of a thing long forgotten.

Look at what happened when Hale Bopp appeared! And those were modern people! Just think of the things people would have thought at the sight of Halley's Comet, which appeared in the late 11th century as well!!!

I am not able to cite references here - there is no book about this.

For example, in Egypt, it is only within the past 15 years that the connection between the positions and stars and the ancient monumnets has been established. The ancient sciences were entirely based upon the knowledge of the heavens, and for anyone to neglect this when discussing the business of the ancients is to make a great mistake.

I think what I am asking you to do here is to use your own reasoning abilities, combined with a litte bit of inference, but this topic is rather obscure so I don't think I'm going to have much luck!

Anyway guys, I just wanted to point something out to you that might be another one of history's great oversights.

That is, of course, unless you think everythng your teachers said was true, and everything that ever happened is currently known to us. But if you were like that, why would you be hangin out on ATS?

Arkaleus

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I think what I am asking you to do here is to use your own reasoning abilities, combined with a litte bit of inference, but this topic is rather obscure so I don't think I'm going to have much luck!

Sounds good. I think we can all benefit from doing that occasionally. I do like your theory and would be interested if you come across any other historical/astronomical connections. No hard feelings, debate is good for the mind.

I'd be interested in your thoughts about the upcoming Venus transition in the beginning of June..

I love all unique and carefully recorded events.

The transit of venus is rare enough to warrant an audience. I hope there is a website with a live stream of the event, otherwise I will probably be at work.

see ya!

The Holy Wars were first started because the Church was afraid of the Knights Templar, because they had information pertaining to Christ having escaped the crucifiction and having fathered three children with Mary of Magdalene in France.

The Church sent the Templars to this foreign country in the hopes that they would be destroyed, along with any memory of Christ's humanity.

I suppose, if you wanted to, you could have an astrological chart drawn up inregards to the years in question, to see if it was 'ordained'... but other than that...

HUH???? Meteor in the sky is why Constantine converted to Christianity!!?!??!?! Let me guess he built Constantinople because a bird came and told him? The Crusades were about religion, and land!!

History is much simpler.

After the Muslims decided to conquer the known world, these warriors fought and conquered their way into Europe. Spain was gone and they were halfway through France when the kings decided enough was enough.

The European kings organized their soldiers and fought the Muslims back to Jerusalem.

A Crusader wrote after the battle that the streets were ankle deep in blood in the final battle.

According to World Book Encylopedia, Europe today would be ruled by Muslims had the Crusaders not fought the long war.

Robert O'Neal
www.onealclan.com

Originally posted by Arkaleus
The story of Constantine's conversion doesn't come from the church.

And what's the deal with Mithras? I never studied that mystery school. I don't see what the big deal is about it. It's just another sun cult.

No. The story of Constantine's conversion came from the Church. Go check it out. His mother converted but Constantine didn't until his deathbed. You'd have thought if he saw this cross in the sky and Jesus visited him that he would have converted straight away, wouldn't you? But no. He was a staunch follower of Mithras until the day he died, which is why today's Western religion and society contains so many that things were pertinent to Mithraism.

Mithras is a massive deal. This was the religion that Constantine followed until his death. Maybe just another sun cult but also one of the largest pagan religions of it's day until destroyed by Orthodox Chrisitanity upon Constantine's death. When it was destroyed, the Church went about and judiciously eliminated nearly all evidence that it even existed. They adopted what they liked and took it as thier own creation.

As for the theory about the end of the World? Well apart from the fact that every culture over the millenia has always thought that the end of the world was coming, the times of the Crusades were no different than any other in that respect. In fact, if anything they were more level headed as they had just been through the biggest end of the world scare that any culture had seen - the dawning of a new millenia. If the Crusades had started just before or right around the time of 1000AD, you might have a case. But evidence shows that, even though the vast majority of the Western population believed that the world would end on this date, warring against Islam was not an issue.

[Edited on 28-5-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by soothsayer
The Holy Wars were first started because the Church was afraid of the Knights Templar...
The Church sent the Templars to this foreign country in the hopes that they would be destroyed, along with any memory of Christ's humanity.

The Knights Templar weren't founded until the end of the first Crusade. They are named because they stabled their horses in the Temple of Solomon. You're thinking of many years later, in the early 1300's, which was when the Templars were arrested and executed in France by King Phillip (Phillip the Fair).

And maybe I should clarify before I get picked up on it.

Constantine was a follower of Sol Invictus - a development of Mithraism.

*sigh*

When will you accept the fact that he didn't convert? Every scholar in the known world knows that he went along merrily following his pagan religion until his death bed.

You would have thought that after this conversion and the subsequent battle, he would have shown thanks to the Christian god wouldn't you? So what did he do? He minted a commemorative coin which attributed his voctory to the Sun.
And whilst we're about it, let's forget all the monuments and statues revering his pagan religion that he set up after he supposedly had this vision.

TextConstantine was a follower of Sol Invictus - a development of Mithraism.

So far you are the only with the facts of constantinos convertion right he did it because he promise his mother not because he saw a sign in the sky or god talk to him, anything else is church myth about why he became a christian in his death bed.

Funny thing that Arkaleus should mention the meteor connection to the Crusades. In the letter from Fulk "le Rechin" - Count of Angou - dated 1095, there is mention of a the sun being blotted out for more than a year. Presumably crops failed and over a third of the population died from mysterious causes. Interestingly enough he mentions that their hair and finger nails fell out. This could be scurvey or radiation poisoning - take your pick. Also arab chronicers, according to Michaud (the French crusdader historian of the 1840s), talk about the Nile turning to ice and the parymids encased in snow drifts. Clearly something catastrophic happened that changed the world, and it wasn't fossil fuels

I must admit, I knew very little about Constantine's conversion, and what I head of it was in some documentary TV show.

My main point wasn't about Constantine himself, it was more along with the effect of the meteor and other ASTRONOMICAL events influencing public policy in ancient times.

The Supernova event of the 1th century was not something that could be missed in a time before electricity: Every man woman and child would have seen the intense fireball for weeks on end.

If such a thing were to occur today, you can safely assume all manner of speculation would abound, even among modern folks! It would be the end of the world, like Hale bopp, and that was just a comet!

So imagine the effect upon ANCIENT people whose sciences were ASTROLOGY and RELIGION!

That's my point.

Ark