Ahmadinejad serves up bitter-sweet world view

reply to post by NoJoker13


I suggest you read your own link

Hearsay, rumours and secondhand stories

Now, please provide evidence as previously requested for all these "thousands" of protesters that are locked up - from a non MSM source.

Also please try to understand that however you try and spin it, a political movement is just that, and not representative of an entire culture and/or religion.

The KKK and BNP always said they were political movements - does that mean all anglo's are members and agree with them?

I think not...

reply to post by mmiichael


Actually Michael as a drummer and a musician I can tell you that following the rudiments is a prerequisite for having a sound base that is technically correct and also happens to work and be the key to success.

The truth is when it comes to the Christian world about the only sect I do respect is the Pennsylvania Dutch Amish because unlike so many other people and not just with religion tend to pick only the elements of things that are convenient to them.

The Amish actually don’t pick and choose, nor try to reinterpret the inconvenient and difficult and disciplined aspect of their faith. They don’t make excuses to justify not doing those hard and difficult things that truly task them.

Instead they just follow it to the letter no matter how inconvenient and difficult.

The amazing thing is that the Amish end up enjoying some rewards as a result of that dedication and self discipline that make both other Christians and just plain average citizens sometimes jealous and mad those rewards for strictly following the Bible’s teachings bring them.

So no not only is your argument against the very similar Neturei Karta disingenuous and flawed because any person practicing something who abandons the rudiments and fundamentals of something is likewise going to get flawed results.

Let’s suppose for a second that Judaism really is a valid religion and it’s G-d as their scriptures purport it to be is real, and the things in the Old Testament and Torah are really the true word and instructions of that G-d.

Who is going to be rewarded for following that scripture to the letter? Well the Neturei Karta is. They actually listened to and obeyed their G-d as that G-d is alleged to have instructed them too in the scriptures.

So who then would be punished for not following the fundamentals and rudiments that G-d put forth? The secular Jews and Zionists who only practice the rudimentary and fundamentals of the Judaic religion that they have cherry picked as being convenient to them and rewarding to them in the present and here and now.

So if all these people believe in this G-d and what he has told them, who would be the nutty ones then, those who obey that G-d and do what that G-d tells them, or those that don’t obey that G-d and don’t do what that G-d tells them and in so doing leading themselves to their own ruin as they invite that G-d’s wrath, scorn and punishment.

Honestly its pretty unseemly as well as quite telling that someone who is supposedly Jewish and supposedly believes in that G-d and his teachings as a means to promote and defend Zionist Israeli political policies at any and all costs would in fact slander the strictest and most faithful and discipline practitioners, rabbis and their congregants and laity alike.

All you are in fact saying then is that the religion and its rudiments and fundamentals aren’t valid which in fact then makes every argument about why a Zionist Israel should exist invalid too.

I think its pretty telling that Zionists would go to such lengths to slander those Jews who are truly spiritual and religious in nature and follow, obey and truly practice that G-d and religions practices.

I think its somewhat shocking too!

Click here for more information.

reply to post by NoJoker13


Way to debate a point

At no time have I done any such thing, so again you lie.

You've just got the hump because you were proved wrong.

And again with the aggression and thinly veiled insults? Why? Is it beyond your capacity to debate this in a civilised manner?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Excellent point about Neturei Karta, and also about Amish, who are also derided and looked down on by other sects.

Would it be correct to say that the treatment of this group is political in nature, given that Zionism is a political movement, and that they deride them in order to further their own goals?

These guys had a protest against Zionism .

Peaceful demonstration in Free Israel.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Excellent point about Neturei Karta, and also about Amish, who are also derided and looked down on by other sects.

Would it be correct to say that the treatment of this group is political in nature, given that Zionism is a political movement, and that they deride them in order to further their own goals?

Yes it is very political in nature how the Neturei Karta are persecuted and treated by Zionist Israeli officials as well as how secular Jews view them.

The Neturei Karta leaders are jailed from time to time for the demonstrations they sometimes stage. For instance recently about a month ago several of them celebrated the Jewish Sabbath in Gaza with Hamas leaders.

They have accused Israeli officials of physically abusing them and torturing them when they are jailed. They also cite wide spread harassment and persecution and intimidation by secular Jews in Israel.

The attitudes amongst many Israelis are anti-Orthodox, and even many of the mainstream Orthodox Jews of other sects especially those who are pro-Talmud find themselves on the short end of the harassment stick. The Talmud specifically forbids Jews from killing other human beings, which according to it’s teachings when murder must occur it should always be carried out by a gentile and not a Jew.

As a result all Orthodox Jews are exempt from having to fight or perform mandatory service in the Israeli Defense Forces which makes them poor patriots from the Zionist and average Secular Jew’s standpoint since Israeli Defense Force is mandatory and compelled of all non-Orthodox, Jewish citizens of Israel. The do not let the non-Palestinians Arabs fight in the Israel Defense Forces either, even though the Zionists love to point to the handful of Arab held seats in their Knesset (parliament) as displaying that they are a non-secular democracy!

The politics of war and Islamic attrition very much fuel the Israeli state and the Neturei Karta and other Orthodox sects would rather make peace with the Palestinians and Arabs instead of constantly looking for pretexts and excuses to use military force against them.

The reality is that Zionist Israel has very little to do with actually following or adhering to the Judaic religion but simply exploit it as a thing to politically rally around. This of course upsets and genuinely worries the actual devout and religious Jews who are in a substantial minority in secular Zionist Israel.

The reality is in my humble opinion as we have seen in this thread is that the Zionists are very anti-Semitic.

Neturei Karta were formally established in 1935. And there has been an inevitable split, the slightly more progressive branch of this ignored tiny sect denouncing the hardline one Iran trotted out for their video meeting.

Bad news for those who want to believe they represent anything more than an cult. They were in Jerusalem 200 years ago and not part of any Zioinist agenda. So I guess, that makes them Palestinians.

They feel it is ordained they be be in charge of all Jerusalem. None of this liberal equal opportunity nonsense.

www.washington-report.org...

Lithuanian Jews, who were students of the Gaon of Vilna, and Hungarian Satmar Hasidic Jews, who settled in Jerusalem's Old City in the early 19th century, were the forebears of today’s Neturei Karta.

Neturei Karta is a loosely governed group, without clear membership, that is united primarily by its view that there exists only one authentic form of Judaism as well as its anti-Zionistic ideology.

Neturei Karta see themselves as fostering a Torah-true practice of Judaism, unadulterated by any compromise. They consider themselves a bulwark against any innovation in Judaism or any Jewish practice.

In addition, Neturei Karta see themselves as being guardians over Jerusalem, rather than the Israeli government, until the Messiah comes.

My own belief is the true designated leaders of the Holy Land are the Church of Latter Day Saints. Three and a half million strong, based in Utah. God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ visited Joseph Smith in 1820 giving him specific instructions.

Smith acted quickly and the Holy Land is now officially sanctified by Hebrews who wandered into the Americas setting up home base in Utah in times past.

www.jcpa.org...

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) have been present in Israel for a long time. Because of their belief that Jews would return to their land as a "sign of the time" of the second coming, the Mormon missionary Orson Hyde was sent to Jerusalem by Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church in 1841, only ten years after the founding of the Church. Hyde recited a "Zionist prayer" and dedicated the land to the Jews from atop the Mount of Olives.

[edit on 24-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by budski
Take ol' Dubya for instance, he invaded Iraq because "god told him to" and Blair eagerly backed him up.

Now if Ahmadinejad were to say something similar, oh, something like "god told me to attack Israel" certain posters on here would jump on that as a sign of his extremism - however, he has said nothing of the sort (unlike bush) and yet still people persist in labelling him as some kind of religious nutter.

Double standards really annoy me...

You are being tad simplistic regarding Bush's motivation to kick out the tyrant Saddam Hussein.

Ahmadinejad is an intelligent man who plays to both a domestic audience and a captivated Arab one too. It is in his interest to keep the rhetoric against the west going and to nurture and maintain an “enemy at the gates” mentality in order to retain control. Clearly, he also has other admirers who probably like him because he hates the US, but that’s another story.

Ahmadinejad has said some things which bring into question his normality and reinforce the view that he is somewhat megalomaniac. His rant to the UN and other UN conferences were just that, and while he may think his audience is enraptured by his insights, the reverse is probably true. In fact, in his UN speech to the Assemby he did talk religion for a bit and actually said “... be aware that living with obedience to God and carrying out His orders...”, so that’s his excuse sorted.

A few choice ditties from the mouth of the Ahmadinejad...

> “Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury” (Nice one, mate. No wonder we are all fear a nuclear Iran)
> “We believe that atomic energy is a blessing given by God”. (Or was it the Russians, Pakistanis or North Koreans)?
> “We believe that accurate dissemination of news and information is necessary for political growth and awareness as well as effective interaction among nations in today's world”. (But not in Iran)!
> "The wave of the Islamist revolution will soon reach the entire world". (No thanks)

... and on and on. I'm sure he's a nice guy.

Regards

Edit - to correct a typo


[edit on 24/1/2010 by paraphi]

reply to post by mmiichael


Actually you neglected to point out why they were founded in 1935. It was over the alarm of Zionists murdering Jewish shopkeepers and Jewish Famers who hired Arab workers in defiance of the Zionist Manifesto. The Zionist Manifesto amongst its many strategies to dominate the entire Middle East from the brooks of Egypt to the Mesopotamian Delta called for the economic boycott and starvation of the indigenous Arabs.

Not only were these devout and faithful rabbis alarmed about Jews killing other Jews for an unseemly political purpose but they feared just as the majority of the Arabs did that the Zionist would never honor the terms of the British and U.N. Mandates to partition Palestine in to a self governed Arab and Zionist states with the Arabs to have 52% of the land and the Zionists 48% and would in so doing disobey G-d’s commandment to the Jews to not attempt to rebirth Israel until the Jewish messiah appeared.

As far as Mormonism goes it does have many aspects of Talmudic law woven into it, but Joseph Smith compiled most of the information for the Book of Mormon from Egyptian and Masonic teachings and ritual.

Additionally the actual practice of Mormonism as put forth by Joseph Smith has been severely watered down and rewritten for political purposes to gain Statehood in Utah.

Those who practice true Mormonism is in fact in violation of not just the Talmudic Laws in the current book of Mormon but civil and criminal laws in the United Sates as well.

The actual Jewish Messiah has yet to appear and is likely stuck on the same lost bus as the mythical 12th Imam is.

I find it shocking though that Zionists are as religious intolerant as they are. It would seem to me that with those kinds of prevalent anti religious attitudes even against the most devout of the Jews that they are in real danger of practicing Hitlerism themselves.

Very scary perspectives and attitudes where we see and we see quite often Zionists slandering and defaming the practice of the actual devout Jews who adhere to its fundamentals and principles, technically it would make Israel not a very Jewish friendly nation, which is pretty evident by the huge numbers of Orthodox Jews who prefer to live abroad and not in Israel, and the extraordinary high rate of emigration of Israelis who were born and raised in Israel and are desperate to live in much more tolerant places like Miami Beach where I live that has a huge number of Israeli immigrants who were born there who are in fact desperate not to want to have to live in Israel.

When we see the Zionists ripping on and slandering the actual devout and practicing Jews like we have in this thread its easy to understand why so many Israelis do flee it for the religious freedoms we guarantee here in the United States.

reply to post by paraphi


Right.

Except you forgot it was the US who started their nuclear programme back in the 60's, and kept it going right up to 1978.

Most of the technology they have is of US origin.

Just like Saddams WMD's.

reply to post by budski


Yes, but in recent times the programme has been greatly enhanced and pushed through input from the Russian Federation and not the US. Any US involvement stopped rather abruptly!

Interestingly, Iran’s ballistic missile programme traces its roots to formal links with Israel through Project Flower. Happy days.

Regards

reply to post by paraphi


Some of the tech came from pakistan as well, after the US selling it to them "under the counter" via others.

Same difference in the end though - all politicians and govorgs are liars and crooks when it comes right down to it.

reply to post by Mdv2

Iran is a beautiful country with a very dangerous zealous extremist leadership.

America is a beautiful country with a very dangerous zealous extremist leadership.

Irony! I love it...

I love people that come in here and claim Iran persecutes and kills Christians, non-believers and "protesters". Either that, or they are "imprisoned."


Yet you fail to recognize the west does this on a near daily basis. G20 summits ring any bells? How about the Olympics? How about any protest? You see all those shock troops and violence?

Oh, that's right.. all those protesters deserved it, and anyone killed was 'an accident', but since it happened in Iran, then it was Ahmadinejad himself that did these acts, and he is a tyrant.

Not to mention, we are at war with TWO countries and in conflicts with PLENTY more, while we try to start MORE war with Iran, Pakistan, Yemen and even Venezuela.

*Snip*

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[edit on 1/24/2010 by semperfortis]

Originally posted by SEEWHATUDO
reply to post by Mdv2

 

Iran is a beautiful country with a very dangerous zealous extremist leadership.

America is a beautiful country with a very dangerous zealous extremist leadership.

Irony! I love it...

It is true...

Instead of a government

OF THE PEOPLE
BY THE PEOPLE and
FOR THE PEOPLE

we have corporate management
OF THE MONEY
BY THE MONEY
and
FOR THE MONEY

and anyone who notices this and speaks out is called a kook.
'
Chaves and Morales are Indiginous leaders... who represent the indian majority for the first time in the history of south america...and Che Guevarra never joined the communist party...that was a lie spread by the CIA to depopularize him..while the CIA would place lime-mortar mix in the milk being delivered to children's schools in order to 'show' that Cuba's government was inept...

Ignorance of the facts makes a mind malleable by lies.

The United States must secede from the Federal Union.. and begin again.. we couldn't do worse than we are now...with our children turned into debt-slaves of corporate wealth for generations!

Come visit me in Gitmo


[edit on 24-1-2010 by seataka]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by mmiichael

 

Actually you neglected to point out why they were founded in 1935. It was over the alarm of Zionists murdering Jewish shopkeepers and Jewish Famers who hired Arab workers in defiance of the Zionist Manifesto. The Zionist Manifesto amongst its many strategies to dominate the entire Middle East from the brooks of Egypt to the Mesopotamian Delta called for the economic boycott and starvation of the indigenous Arabs.

Not only were these devout and faithful rabbis alarmed about Jews killing other Jews for an unseemly political purpose but they feared just as the majority of the Arabs did that the Zionist would never honor the terms of the British and U.N. Mandates to partition Palestine in to a self governed Arab and Zionist states with the Arabs to have 52% of the land and the Zionists 48% and would in so doing disobey G-d’s commandment to the Jews to not attempt to rebirth Israel until the Jewish messiah appeared.

As far as Mormonism goes it does have many aspects of Talmudic law woven into it, but Joseph Smith compiled most of the information for the Book of Mormon from Egyptian and Masonic teachings and ritual.

Additionally the actual practice of Mormonism as put forth by Joseph Smith has been severely watered down and rewritten for political purposes to gain Statehood in Utah.

Those who practice true Mormonism is in fact in violation of not just the Talmudic Laws in the current book of Mormon but civil and criminal laws in the United Sates as well.

The actual Jewish Messiah has yet to appear and is likely stuck on the same lost bus as the mythical 12th Imam is.

I find it shocking though that Zionists are as religious intolerant as they are. It would seem to me that with those kinds of prevalent anti religious attitudes even against the most devout of the Jews that they are in real danger of practicing Hitlerism themselves.

Very scary perspectives and attitudes where we see and we see quite often Zionists slandering and defaming the practice of the actual devout Jews who adhere to its fundamentals and principles, technically it would make Israel not a very Jewish friendly nation, which is pretty evident by the huge numbers of Orthodox Jews who prefer to live abroad and not in Israel, and the extraordinary high rate of emigration of Israelis who were born and raised in Israel and are desperate to live in much more tolerant places like Miami Beach where I live that has a huge number of Israeli immigrants who were born there who are in fact desperate not to want to have to live in Israel.

When we see the Zionists ripping on and slandering the actual devout and practicing Jews like we have in this thread its easy to understand why so many Israelis do flee it for the religious freedoms we guarantee here in the United States.

I don't know what a modern Zionist is. Used to be people advocating the creation of a Jewish homeland around Jerusalem. It happned.

Now I see the term used by Jew-haters trying to keep under the wire of various Internet forum rules and political correctness.

Of course your story of Anyone getting upset about Arabs working in proto-Israel British Mandate is a fabrication. No record of it anywhere and of course the region being flooded wit Arabs from Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq with Jews paying European pay scale as opposed to the few cents a day slave wages in the rest of the Middle East.

The oil boom was not till well after WWII, the Middle East was esssentially an extension of North Africa.

On the Mormons - well not much comment. Joseph Smith was a classic paranoid schizophrenic. Hears disembodied voices - the reviously unknown Angel Moroni wh appears in upstate New york pointing him to a buried box with a Golden Book inside. About a dozen Latter Day Apostles claim to have seen the book. But there is no tangible shred of evidence it existed.

The Mormon thing borrows symbology from Middle East mythologies, just as the Koran does. The magic gold scrolls, the dictated laws, the wonky invented history. Love it when Prof Steven Jones searches for validation of JC in the Americas by rooting through Mayan mythologies. Recognizing how validating fairy tales is good publicity and enhances one's career, Jones backs the pseudoscientific Cold Fusion reaction which no one seems to be able to duplicate. More recently he's decided some red primer chips found in the World Trade Center debris are actually traces of thermite, an explosive. No chemists draw the same conclusion and argue thermite in millimeter thin layers doesn't work as an explosive.

Point of this digression, religion, mythology, charlatanism, conspiracy theory - all have a lot in common. Self-deception and deception. In these realms of uncritical thinking, the yarn-spinner is king. The more outrageous and sensationalistic the story is - the more it's lapped up.

Dangerous when the moonies become leaders of countries and actually buy into self-serving fantasies. Possibly a source of problems for about 70 million people in Iran, most of whom are decidedly not paranoid schizophrenics and don't want to be swept along in someone's religious fantasies.

I always prefer crooked leaders to religious ones. At least with crooks you know it's all about money and self-preservation.

I'm curious to know why NONE of the mainstream media have ever shown any of his speeches in full?

Are they desperately trying to hide something I wonder?

Ahmedinejad should run as president of the US.

reply to post by Jinni


That's because his speeches go on for so long and they are not spoken in English (usually). If you Google it, you will be able to easily find full transcripts (pages and pages) of Ahmadinejad's speeches.

On fine form at the Durban Review Conference (BBC)

Regards

Originally posted by SyphonX
I love people that come in here and claim Iran persecutes and kills Christians, non-believers and "protesters". Either that, or they are "imprisoned."


Yet you fail to recognize the west does this on a near daily basis. G20 summits ring any bells? How about the Olympics? How about any protest? You see all those shock troops and violence?

Oh, that's right.. all those protesters deserved it, and anyone killed was 'an accident', but since it happened in Iran, then it was Ahmadinejad himself that did these acts, and he is a tyrant.

Not to mention, we are at war with TWO countries and in conflicts with PLENTY more, while we try to start MORE war with Iran, Pakistan, Yemen and even Venezuela.

*Snip*

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[edit on 1/24/2010 by semperfortis]

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, even western democracy is not perfect. But situation in Iran and other middle eastern countries is FAR worse. You just cant compare atrocities of that regime to our and say they are even remotely similar. They arent!

[edit on 24-1-2010 by Maslo]