The biggest threat to UFOlogy credibility are the believers

Heya ATS,

I am highly open to the prospect of "little green men" visiting earth on a semi-regular basis. I am also wanting the smoking gun proof to be uncovered before I commit to any firm belief system. logically it seems impossible for this to be a empty universe and so I do believe life is out there...the question is, are they visiting here.

I am sure most here listen to this person or that and like things that make sense and offer hope of the truth of this subject to be uncovered in a relatively soon timeframe..we smile when we hear about some offical is due to disclose and come clean about the subject and at this point simply accept when the date comes and goes with no revelation as the norm for this field.

This is not the problem with the community...hell, people whom claim dates of officals disclosing are only harming themselves, and may have on the plus side, got a few new people researching the subject and becoming interested even after the failure of the promised disclosure.

The area that harms the movement as a whole are the type that speak as fact things that are not proven. Such people disgrace the field and make it a foolish religion, hampering any serious discussion over it.
Point and case, "channelers" of aliens.



The proof this person offers is that there may be weather issues somewhere in the world sometime that may or may not effect someones driving. Sadly, the BBC is interviewing this person and therefore representing all those whom believe in the potential existance of ETs visiting earth summed up in people like this...and the journalist, instead of asking for specific proof or discussing how silly it was simply said it was amazing and the fact that the overweight man was sweaty leads onto some sort of proof...amazing

I do hope that even the "nuttiest" of believers would publically denounce people like this as not a representation of what believers listen to, however when these people, and Blossom come along, there are swarms of gullible people that will rise her high up, only to make the entire subject seem foolish. (at least blossom had a specific expiration date to any credibility she may have had and that nonsense is over with).

So, please...believe what you want, but give a disclamer that things like this are not a representation of ufo believers in general...but rather just a silly little pseduo-religion that is using ufo aspects for fun or profit...but a bigger favor would be for those "types" to simply go find a new religion...like scientology, or operaism

Thing is most 'believers' DO avoid these kinds of people, simply by not even bothering to acknowledge them

Isnt that footage from the Louis Theroux's doco where he goes around meeting people from some of the rather fringe cultures of America?, was a neat doco series (the survivalist episode was scary)... but that channeling guy he interviewed was a complete nut.


I think some people might flame you as a troll, but you have a real point. Since its the nutters like that channeler who people outside the field remember in the long run, not the guy with a good theory and decent well written articles as to why they think the subject requires more of a look in.

I also find the term 'believers' a little offensive, its definitely a bad term to use since it gives the field a religious overtone as you say these nutters give also, it also makes it once again a us vs them mentality which it shouldnt be, it aint a war of belief.

I have a belief in UFO's but I also will rip the crap out of the evidence and discard the overly radical stuff if it sounds to fanciful. Which I think is a mind set thats becoming rare, people hear someone say something they find 'appealing' and they jump on it as if its real... always question, people just dont do that now days.

But you shouldnt have a mind sitting in a cast iron box either

Edit:- and as an aside, im not against 'channelers' since who knows some extra dimensional beings or even 'regular' aliens might find it suitable to use a human mind to transmit info... the problem with it is, there's alot of conflicting 'channels' or some just plain fruity 'messages', its just far to hard to prove, doesn't mean it couldn't or does happen... just haven't seen a genuine case of it yet and as such each case has to be taken as is and turfed on the 'screwball' pile if it aint up to scratch.


[edit on 21-1-2010 by BigfootNZ]

reply to post by BigfootNZ

I think some people might flame you as a troll

might ?

no might about it , this is a trolling motor designed to discredit and ridicule the believers.

cointelpro agents have a track record of using this technique

Exposing the Covert Counter-Intelligence Program against Extraterrestrial Contactees

www.exopoliticsjournal.com...

Problem is most people can't stand to be in a suspended judgment mindset so to speak—most people have, apparently, the need to commit to a conclusion, even when there's not objectively enough evidence to reach one. Since these people have a need to commit to a conclusion, every little unverified story and con artist that is selling something that supports their conclusion gets accepted as actual evidence.

This isn't, however, limited to UFO believers as you call them, so don't expect this behavior to change anytime soon, because it won't. If you like this topic and you think it deserves better than the sad state of affairs it currently is in, you have to learn to deal with this sort of people—you either can ignore them altogether or learn to laugh them off; otherwise you will eventually lose your mind.

edit: spelling


[edit on 21-1-2010 by converge]

Originally posted by easynow
might ?
no might about it , this is a trolling motor designed to discredit and ridicule the believers.
cointelpro agents have a track record of using this technique

Do you have any actual evidence that this person you are accusing of being a "cointelpro agent" is actually a "cointelpro agent"? Or you're just making accusations because this person dislikes channelers and you don't share that opinion?

Is this the the highest level of discourse we can achieve here? Someone criticizing something they don't like in the field and gets automatically labeled a Government agent?

If you think ufology doesn't need to be criticized I respectfully advise you to open your eyes.

reply to post by converge

Do you have any actual evidence that this person you are accusing of being a "cointelpro agent" is actually a "cointelpro agent"? Or you're just making accusations because this person dislikes channelers and you don't share that opinion?

did i say the Op was a agent ?

no i did not , i said cointelpro agents use this techinique

does the Op know this ? why don't you ask him/her ?

Is this the the highest level of discourse we can achieve here? Someone criticizing something they don't like in the field and gets automatically labeled a Government agent?

maybe the Op should have done some homework about this so he would know that he might be accused of being a dis info agent ?

If you think ufology doesn't need to be criticized I respectfully advise you to open your eyes.

i didn't say ufology doesn't need criticism but if you think the title of this thread is appropriate and is not meant to ridicule the believers perspective in it's entirety then i respectfully advise you to take your own advice and open YOUR eyes

Originally posted by easynow
maybe the Op should have done some homework about this so he would know that he might be accused of being a dis info agent?

So this whole situation is the OP's fault, because he should have known he'd be accused of being a disinformation agent for sharing his opinion? Quite frankly, that's preposterous. I think it is you who have to change your approach, not the OP—you should only accuse someone of being a disinformation agent if you have evidence to support the claim because that's a very serious accusation.

i didn't say ufology doesn't need criticism but if you think the title of this thread is appropriate and is not meant to ridicule the believers perspective in it's entirety then i respectfully advise you to take your own advice and open YOUR eyes

I must ask: so what if he ridicules believers? And notice that he defined the people he was talking about. But isn't this person entitled to his opinion? You seem to focus too much on defending the people surrounding the field instead of the what the field is supposed to focus on: investigating and researching the possibility of extra-terrestrial visitation.

The OP said he was open to the notion of extra-terrestrial intelligent life visiting Earth but is searching for the "smoking gun proof" of this. I'm sorry but isn't that the whole point of UFO investigation and research?

I think some people think the UFO field means "everything that tangibly has to do with UFOs and aliens," so in those broad terms anyone selling DVDs channeling aliens or uploading videos of lights in the sky on Youtube is 'in' the "UFO field," when it shouldn't be like that at all.

I know that for you—and others—the questions have already been answered. I also have my own opinions and suspicions about what lies behind the phenomenon, but let's not confuse those opinions—and let them interfere—with what we can objectively conclude from the actual data and evidence—which is not a lot.

I see nothing wrong with either the title, or the content, of the post. I see someone who claims to be interested in the topic pointing out what he identifies as a threat to the field's credibility—presumably because this person cares about real investigation and rational discussion—and explains his reasons. But I'm sure he can speak for himself.

I see, however, something wrong in automatically talking and making innuendos about disinformation agents when someone simply states their opinion. Your reaction actually helps prove the OP's argument: some people really deal with this subject as if it was a religion—and "disinformation agent" is the "heathen" of UFO debate.

reply to post by converge

you should only accuse someone of being a disinformation agent if you have evidence

for the last time, i did not say the Op was a cointelpro agent or a disinfo agent. i said the the technique is the same and you should ask the Op if he knows he might be accused of that.

I see nothing wrong with either the title,

i do see a problem with it , but i guess i have to respect your opinion but you don't have to respect mine ? how nice

Your reaction actually helps prove the OP's argument

HAH ! fat chance

your stereo typical accusations are entertaining but based from ignorance because you don't know anything about me or what i believe. i think your reaction to my posts proves that skeptics have a practiced skeptical religion and when discussing ufology in any way they will do anything to shove it down everyone's throat

Without the believers Dr Greer goes back to work, Stan Friedman goes back to work, and everyone in-between goes back to work. No more book publishings, no more 1rst class flights to the year end ufo convientions, no more $5,000- $10,000 speaking arrangment gigs. Seti comes out on top as the hope that maybe one day our great generations will get the signal, and all this other mess goes into the toilet where it belongs.

reply to post by Mr_skepticc

Without the believers

so your saying despite the overwhelming evidence everyone should be a skeptic ?

i guess without "believers" Michael Shermer won't be able to cash in anymore as well , but of course you didn't mention him. i wonder why ?

I have yet to see conclusive proof but I certainly believe in ET's. I do not believe in Greer and those fellows nor will I buy their books. The skeptics are necessary in my view as they play the "devils advocate" and force those of us who seek proof to keep our standards high. They are right in my oppinion to hound the charlatans and expose holes in stories and theories and evidence provided. That said both sides have a portion of their population that come to it with an ideological view or even a near religious faith in their respective beliefs and neither will be moved.

I'd love to believe ET's visist and its possible they do but I cannot say I have ever seen irrefutable proof of such but that does not mean I will not keep looking.

This area of debate demands scientific scrutiny and a high standard for investigation. The media will never come to it with such a desire as there in the business of entertaining and finding the "characters" when it comes to UfOlogy and ET invesitgations makes for a better story than someone with a measured and sensible approach.

Cheers

Originally posted by easynow

I think some people might flame you as a troll

might ?

no might about it , this is a trolling motor designed to discredit and ridicule the believers.

cointelpro agents have a track record of using this technique

Exposing the Covert Counter-Intelligence Program against Extraterrestrial Contactees

www.exopoliticsjournal.com...

Bit of a sensitive reaction there I think. I took the opening post to mean don't believe in any old bollocks without good reason or you'll make the already mocked UFO community mocked even more, I'm with him/her all the way.

reply to post by Hawkwind.


based on your reply i am going to assume you didn't even read the article in the exopolotics link , am i correct ?

if you did read it then you either didn't understand it or your just blindly unaware that your being used as a pawn to continue the propagation of the cointelpro strategy.

correct me if i am wrong



[edit on 21-1-2010 by easynow]

Was away, but back now...so let me get my flameproof suit on and respond to some stuff.

Originally posted by easynow
reply to post by BigfootNZ

 

I think some people might flame you as a troll

might ?

no might about it , this is a trolling motor designed to discredit and ridicule the believers.

cointelpro agents have a track record of using this technique

Exposing the Covert Counter-Intelligence Program against Extraterrestrial Contactees

www.exopoliticsjournal.com...

Oh, I dont care really, write me off as some paid whatnot to discredit a field by saying flipping idiots are discrediting what should be a serious study.

I will also say those whom flame people trying to bring skepticism and a filter of nonsense into this field damage the progression of serious study and they themselves are more suspect to disinfo agents or whatever.

I find that the first person whom claims the other, be it skeptic or simply someone pointing at someone and saying "prove it" to be a disinfo agent simply is shortcutting their thought process and trying to discredit skepticism in general. That is a destructive pattern.

I am not ripping on this particular person in the film...he is clearly a lunatic until he proves something beyond he can speak in a silly british accent when he trances out...I am more ripping on any that would take his type and elevate it to a representation of what someone interested in ufology would believe in.

As far as simply ignore them...you really cant, can you...I think if anything, a person truely interested in the ET phenomona should call out such people...to show the distinct difference in the field...to self patrol the field so that ufology becomes the staplemark home of every nutter out there.

Originally posted by easynow
maybe the Op should have done some homework about this so he would know that he might be accused of being a dis info agent ?

Oh, I have done enough homework to know that in this field, you are labelled a disinfo agent if you say anything someone else doesnt approve of...such as me labelling you a disinfo agent because you implied I am one, thereby making people inherently dismiss anything I say and allowing therefore any discussions of removing charlatons and nuts from the field...thereby making the field continue to be deemed silly by mainstream thinking.


As far as being offended in the term, ufo believers...thats accurate. people whom are part of this field believe there is something to the ufo phenomona to some degree. Some believe it is zetas aliens, some believe they are time travellers, some believe they are center earth dwelling lizard people, some believe they are secret government aircrafts, etc...all believing different things, but believing that its more than just complete bunk from start to finish.

If you have a issue with the term believers, then oh well, I can also sum up most religions as calling them deity believers. Technically correct and thats all that matters...not the feelings of the term of people...and if your offended by it, then your embarassed to be considered part of the group..seems more of a personal issue than me

(ufo believer here...and a skeptic)

Originally posted by SaturnFX
As far as simply ignore them...you really cant, can you...I think if anything, a person truely interested in the ET phenomona should call out such people...to show the distinct difference in the field...to self patrol the field so that ufology becomes the staplemark home of every nutter out there.

Oh, I wasn't implying that you shouldn't call them out and debate, it's just that most people simply don't have the time or will, or both, to do that—but if you do, I'm all for that.

You do realize that you aren't going to change any minds—certainly not the minds of the ones who are convinced they already know the answers—and only a very small number of people will 1) understand and 2) appreciate what you're trying to do. If these things don't discourage you from engaging the people you identify in your post, all speed ahead and I wish you good luck. I don't have the will to do that as frequently as I once had. And I'm not sure if, to a great degree, I wasn't just wasting my time when I did.

The sad reality is that the field, by itself, attracts people who want to believe and unfortunately not many who want to think. It's a struggle right off the bat.

Originally posted by thebulldog
I do not believe in Greer and those fellows nor will I buy their books.

Hmm, I actually do hope greer is correct...I like his visions.
As far as contributing positively to the field, I believe he does. he has brought forth many very credible names to disclose things. this is not proof, they are simply leads that may or may not pan out, but he doesnt simply sit and say he is magic and everyone should listen to him/buy his books....however he does put out a shytton of books (I have no problem with capitalism in this field either...if they are doing a good job, they should get paid..but also be open for peer review) He is most certainly doing things to get paid, but he also brings some meat to the table

unlike someone like Billy Meyers...nobody but he can talk to the pledians, he is a savior, etc etc...no proof beyond some exceptionally easy to debunk photos, and thats it...buy his books and join his cult or your not in the know.

again, I like what Greer does, I like what he says, he brings actual content in some forms to the table for proper study, and he is pretty transparent in how he does things...I dont believe him, but I am inclined to hope he is dead on and will listen to his freebie youtube videos without a problem. He has got more people interested in investigating the science of the field than 1000 blossom goodchilds.

Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by SaturnFX
As far as simply ignore them...you really cant, can you...I think if anything, a person truely interested in the ET phenomona should call out such people...to show the distinct difference in the field...to self patrol the field so that ufology becomes the staplemark home of every nutter out there.

Oh, I wasn't implying that you shouldn't call them out and debate, it's just that most people simply don't have the time or will, or both, to do that—but if you do, I'm all for that.

You do realize that you aren't going to change any minds—certainly not the minds of the ones who are convinced they already know the answers—and only a very small number of people will 1) understand and 2) appreciate what you're trying to do. If these things don't discourage you from engaging the people you identify in your post, all speed ahead and I wish you good luck. I don't have the will to do that as frequently as I once had. And I'm not sure if, to a great degree, I wasn't just wasting my time when I did.

The sad reality is that the field, by itself, attracts people who want to believe and unfortunately not many who want to think. It's a struggle right off the bat.

Heh, I have been blocked from a few UFO people on youtube for giving reasonable arguments to their films...been flamed because of it, been called a disinfo agent for pointing out the obvious, etc...it doesnt phase me. trick is to simply keep composure and give a voice for a rational head in the field. its not about trying to change their minds, nor their fans, but its to contrast the different structures so that someone mildly interested in such videos or whatnot do not see just a bunch of fawning kool aid drinking cultists, but rational skeptical people are also part of this general movement and some of us are trying to chase off the snake oil salesmen that plague the field.

There's one thing you should know. That clip you posted is from the 'Louis Theroux Weird Weekends' series. Every week, Louis will spend time with a nutty community or investigate a counterculture. One week, it was with a bunch of racist Africaaners.. another week it was a weightlifting competition, then there was a hip-hop record label, then he tried out for the porn industry, hung out with some Hare Krishnas, he does something different each week. One week, he hung out at a place in the middle of nowhere amongst a community of NWO conspiracy types living off the grid, awash with guns and paranoia akimbo.

The episode you link to, was part of the trip to Roswell and looking at UFO nutters. You make it out like he genuinely thinks the guy is the real deal, and amazed by his abilities. What you don't realise, is that Louis is a rather sarcastic and skeptical fellow, and he was actually HUMOURING the guy. Don't you worry, he came away from there thinking oh my god what a nutbag. He likes to get involved and try things out, but he also laughs at them at the same time.

I wouldn't consider Louis as a 'serious investigative BBC journalist'. He's just a dude hopping around strange places for our entertainment. My favourite episode was the expose into a dating agency specialising in hooking up sleazy old English men with Asian brides. The guy that ran the agency has the most evil cackle of a laugh.

Anyway, back on topic.. believers ruining the UFO matter. Nahhhhhh... don't agree with you. People are free to believe or disbelieve anything they like. The 'truth' is never finite, science itself is only a mutually-agreed consensus of a hypothesis at any given time, that can shift upon the introduction of new evidence. UFO evidence is similar, there's lots of it out there and it shifts all the time. People around the world also have their own personal experiences, so it doesn't really matter what you think, it's what each individual in their heart thinks. I don't need a blanket organisation known as "UFOLOGY" to tell me what I should or shouldn't believe, just like I don't need a compilation of daily written words known as 'NEWSPAPERS" to tell me the 'truth'.

Because I know, newspapers lie. It comes back to what you think it right in your heart. So really, I think your thread is a load of tosh.

Originally posted by RiotComing
he hung out at a place in the middle of nowhere amongst a community of NWO conspiracy types living off the grid, awash with guns and paranoia akimbo.

The episode you link to, was part of the trip to Roswell and looking at UFO nutters. You make it out like he genuinely thinks the guy is the real deal, and amazed by his abilities.

Actually, thats exactly the point...its because of people like the man in the film being prominent when one thinks of et believers as the norm that takes all seriousness away and makes it a subject of ridicule and insanity. this program surely is pointing out the wackyness of groups, but it also points out a bigger issue, and that is of all these wacky people being the "offical sponsors" of the movement...the posterboys and girls of the community as a whole.

the NWO conspiracy theorists living off the grid is a interesting subject to consider also...and actually, it makes me wonder about this show now...I am sure its a great show...but whats the true purpose besides to dismiss anything not spoonfed as normal...ok, different discussion, different topic.

Anyhow, was just using this clip as a simple example...could have used plenty of others with the same point, from project camelot talking to the autistic woman whom believed she was half grey alien (a dna test would have been much better than giving her a hour to talk about how we have to hug the earth or whatever), to the many blossom goodchild wannabe's, the galactic federation of light people, etc.