The biggest threat to UFOlogy credibility are the believers

Originally posted by RiotComing
I don't need a blanket organisation known as "UFOLOGY" to tell me what I should or shouldn't believe

No one is advocating that. What some of us would like to do is see ufology be a credible and scientific field so that we can actually, you know, investigate the UFO phenomenon with scientific rigor, and eventually be considered a credible field as any other, and optimally be able get funding for research.

I know many are content in simply share stories and theories, buy DVDs and books and watch Youtube videos; but some of us would like to see actual work being done trying to find the answers, instead of waiting for the big bad Government—that has been lying to everyone for over 60 years—to now come clean even though it has no incentive to do so. And that is assuming the Government knows and has all the answers.

reply to post by Mr_skepticc

You sum up the ufo field with two names and then say everything in between. Is it really that simple? If your posts are any indication of what your answer is then I guess I already know but if I am wrong I apologize. Have you ever seen something in the sky, on video, in a picture, or witness testimony that made you think hummmm........ could be? If not, don't you think you might wanna consider you don't have all the answers? If not please tolerate us mere mortals as we try and catch up with research and speculation until we reach your expertise which allows us to have all the answers as well.

Originally posted by easynow
might ?

no might about it , this is a trolling motor designed to discredit and ridicule the believers.

cointelpro agents have a track record of using this technique

Exposing the Covert Counter-Intelligence Program against Extraterrestrial Contactees

www.exopoliticsjournal.com...

I highly doubt that a trolling motorboat is required by intelligence experts in order to discredit and/or ridicule believers and my reasoning is that nothing of 'the believers' claims has ever amounted to anything credible.

Now before we get around to throwing the toys out of the cradle let's break down believers into their separate categories (if you don't like categories - then GTFO my internetz).

Channellers - these guys are charlatans of the most brazen order. Not only are they the only ones who can communicate with these 'others' but they are also rather bad at requesting any useful information. If aliens profile who they are going to communicate with then they must be more idiotic than a redneck's grandson/nephew.

Abductees - Daddy didn't give someone enough attention and so now we are either resorting to lying or being deluded. Mostly American, these people live lives they feel are so insignificant that they require something to spicen them up. Rather than do a community development stint at some developing nation they create an elaborate ploy that only other rousers buy into. The only ones I feel sorry for are the truly deluded.

Aliens + Starchildren Little and green, Indigo, Pleaian, it doesn't matter. These guys feel so removed from society and their families that they take it a step further and think that they are actually not of this Earth and yet are stuck on it. Now don't get me wrong, I know what it is like to feel alienated from society, as a 14 year old boy I thought that all of reality could be some plot to get to some secret that I had hidden deep within my memory and treated existence as such. Thing is the rambling musings of a child are healthy, being adult and feeling the need to interact your pathetic attempts at existentialism as fact are not.

But I've seen it!!1!(ers) These people are the best of the bunch, and that's not saying a lot. Having seen something that doesn't quite equate with their supposition of reality these believers fabricate a 'truth' that can't be tested or scrutinised. They take something they can't explain...and explain it. Now this isn't to put down what they witnessed, this is to state that seeing something you don't know doesn't make it something you claim to know. There is a wealth of videos of groups, YES GROUPS, of people witnessing Chinese lanterns, fireworks or lightshows that state, matter of factly, that these are indeed (X) from (Y) here to (A) for the purpose of (B). Fooling only themselves and anyone who believes in their tall tales of fantasy.

Now these guys only bring the community into the laughing stock of mainstream belief. Heck, I have a good chuckle (and then a cry) at the state of some of these claims.

Now let's look at the more helpful aspects of the community - those who don't wish to be derailed by the 'believers'.

What's this?(ers) People who have some sort of evidence for something they can't explain. They present it to the community and accept a well reasoned response from those who are able, and articulate, enough to supply them with an answer. When no answer is forthcoming they accept that there is not enough data available at that point to determine what indeed it is that they have evidence for. Their evidence based accounts are the lifeblood of the community as without them there would be nothing to investigate.

Sceptics Skeptics or sceptics exist in any community. Sure some of these guys might think they are sceptical and then are shown to pander to their own belief systems somewhere along the way- but that's shown to them by another sceptic. Sceptics prick the balloon of belief, magnetise the feet of fact to the floor and keep the head out of the clouds (or stars). One thing a sceptic loves is to be proven is wrong. Proving one wrong means you have introduced clever concepts and methods that were previously unknown, thus allowing for science to be better and a more thorough understanding of the universe to come into being. I strive to be sceptical and admire others who do the same.

Researchers Documenting both sides of the argument researchers allow future generations to associate with the story at hand. Detailing sceptical and scientific measurements of each case along with claims and possible reasoning from all minds with an opinion at the time these guys try not to contaminate the evidence and produce a clear, and unbiased, account of each account. Like people who think they are sceptical sometimes their own beliefs will override their impartiality but someone will pick up on it, and through collaborative teamwork a better version of events will appears.

Causally curious Not knowing what to believe - but happy to entertain all notions these guys are the bread and butter of the UFO community. Willing to throw out far fetched claims and then retract them without problem when debunked, tying in different hypothesis to the mix to keep sceptics on their toes, making radical conclusions which those too involved with the problem can't see. These are the folk who make it fresh for everyone all over again. These are also the people that believers want to milk for every penny. It's our duty to protect these people and keep them as informed as possible, without pushing our own prejudices upon them.

If anyone was to be coerced by a governing agency it would be the latter half. These are the thinkers, the people who actualise, those who achieve. The believers are worthless stock who only aid anyone who wishes to conceal anything important from the masses. They are the flunkies. There is no need to discredit them for they do it themselves.

Now if you'll excuse me, Skinner has buzzed me and said something about Obama upping the campaign against conspiracists by selling aluminium foil adverts on their internet forums. I better get to the meeting and find out what TPB want...

-m0r

Here is my 2 cents for its worth.

There are different types of believers, scammers and those who think they believe?.

1 Religious fanatical types that believe that ETs/UFOs are demons and manifest themselves as such to control us for thier own ends.

2 Ex Hippie type occult/channeling/Et Hugging/crystal collecting (Goodchild scenario).

3 Scammers who jump on the the subject Bandwagon to make money and egotistic popularity (there are to many to list).

4 CGI Hoaxers some are realy good but cause disaster posting false sightings.

5 The average Joe Bloggs (like myself) who has had an unexplained contact/sighting of which we know that it was not from this planet and who rarely bragg about it.

6 Those that have a avid interest in the subject but never experienced any sighting/contact but need an answer for the overwhelming evidence thats out there (Stanton etc.)

The Op should not take offence about Easy Nows comments but I can see why he is so defensive me included, he has worked very hard on the subject and continualy trying sort out the chaff from the wheat and very patriotic.

Regards BDU

reply to post by m0r1arty


the CIA, FBI and military intelligence agencies appreciate your continued support of their agenda.

good job

reply to post by m0r1arty


I would agree to your labelling as a general rule. There are of course exceptions to every rule and it may be interesting to one day find out one of these channelers for instance, actually are doing as they claim.

Once they provide a few distinct and specific items that can be proven, then sure, give them more and more credibility to their words, but until any and all of them provide something, then I reckon its for entertainment purposes only.

Abductee cases are another story. There are many different theorys, from flat out lying, to people actually remembering being abused but filtered to where it was disassociated to paint a alien face on their abusers...however, their are a couple cases that do put a question mark over them...such as those country boys that the movie Taken was based upon...where they all took polygraphs and passed them. Polygraphs are easy to fail, giving false lying. often people taking polygraphs fail even when they are telling their truth simply because they get a bit stressed...ultimately if you truely believe what you say, you can pass it...for a group to all pass saying the same thing, it tosses out the potential sociopath or insanity prospect out of the window.

doesnt mean anything beyond "hmm, thats odd"...but that is enough to not catagorically dismiss all abductee cases...however, due to their lack of evidence they bring forward...its just a story, and therefore a theory..

sort of like what women want. Some people may think they know, some may even have had a experience of understanding one once, but nobody really knows.

As far as the whole indigo kid and all that nonsense, every generation wants to feel special and seperated from the former one. this started with the greatest generation (those bastards) setting the bar during the 40s and since then, we have had a neverending stream of special kids (until they turn into adults, then their special status is removed...bleh...still say Gen-X is the most enlightened). As far as the most "spiritually awakened" generation, I would have to say that such a generation came in the 60s, with the help of chemicals...granted, the hippy movement wasn't as massive as the media would have us believe, but percentagewise of the population, it was the in thing to do...if there was to be this fabled frequency change of humanity, it would have happened then.

There are exceptions to every group...but the real nuts and bolts comes down to this. The field of UFOs and ETs is a field that deserves proper transparent research and discussion. until its proven one way or another, no group should be stating matter of factly what ET wants, why they come here, etc....what needs to be established first off is smoking gun proof...then we can speculate till the cows come home...well, thats my opinion anyhow.

I still speculate (ok, I am a "greerhead" as far as speculation goes), but know that this is as factual as any other theory based on a concept that is not proven...but I certainly dont present it as fact...I simply state to others wanting the why that "some believe .... and I like to think that if its true, this senario may be the likely one, or optimal one anyhow.

oh, and the world is a simulation to extract information hidden from me..not you, so you dont have to worry...and no, you wont get my secrets!

Originally posted by easynow
reply to post by m0r1arty

 

the CIA, FBI and military intelligence agencies appreciate your continued support of their agenda.

good job

shortcut to thinking. according to that mindset, anyone whom is skeptical is playing into the hands of those that wish to cloud the waters. Though there may be a bit of truth to that, without some healthy skepticism in a field, it would be overrun by book sellers, liars, nutcases, etc. Even the most far fetched crystal gazing martian fan would also agree that there are people whom will say anything to sell a book or dvd to gullible people...the few that believe everyone and there is never a scam are...well, they may be genuine aliens to this world.

What do you find to be the happy medium? it appears your saying never question anyone or anything unless it is skepticism, in which case, always dismiss skepticism.

I wonder about your childhood...did you believe in santa claus right up until your parents said it was just a hoax or did you sort of figure it out by use of skepticism and science before that day...same with the tooth fairy, and all the other childhood tales...did you need to be told by the people perpetrating the hoax or did you conclude it was not real beforehand...when you were told, did you accept it as truth or that your parents were trying to cover up the existance of santa?

stating that you dont believe in santa, or at least need some solid proof of his existance before you believe is perfectly healthy...we are not saying santa is fake, therefore all of winter must be fake...winter is interesting...just saying there is no smoking gun for santa to date beyond some stories from good boys and girls that may have their concept of reality clouded.

it seems disfunctional to dismiss the skeptics...the question really is...are you seeking the truth, or a religion...religion requires no facts and scorns skepticism..the truth thrives on skepticism tearing down the illusions to uncover the reality..but this is on both sides..a skeptic should also dismiss any wonky pseduo-science and lame research attempts that debunk nothing and rely on ridiculing a persons claim verses prove them wrong.

I appreciate your desire to keep a open mind, but having a truely open mind means also allowing the reasonable explanations in and dismissing things proven wrong. if you say you have a open mind, you must therefore be open to very mundane possibilities...maybe that is a weather balloon, maybe you are seeing little more than satellites in the night sky, and maybe that person is mentally unstable verses a abductee.

The people that truely do have a open mind are typically the ones that are called waffling or unable to make up their mind...its because they hear both sides of the story and evaluate...usually finding its never a black or white issue and finding both sides of the discussion a bit crazy (like politics)

I AM READY TO TRANSMIT< I AM READY TO TRANSMIT
CENTRAL CONTROL TO ATS THREAD........... (makes constipated face and sound)



This is how bad ATS has become now? A seriously curious guy with a rational mind is stating a fact; that UFOlogy is a giant joke and won't be taken seriously when you have ppl like the youtube man Channeling Zorgon.

Anyone who can watch that youtube video and believe the man is channeling an alien has lost their mind. I'm sorry, but how can anyone take such a thing seriously?

So now I'm sure I am a disinfo agent as well. When ppl want to stand up and weed out the BS, they're disinfo ppl? The blind believers are truly a Cancer indeed.

[edit on 22-1-2010 by spinalremain]

reply to post by easynow


On page one of the thread you suggest that OP is in fact trolling. I would like to offer a different opinion. I have been saying for an awful long time that all the BS needs to stop so that we "Believers" can get on with the task of locating , identifying, and even contacting the pilots of UFO using proper, real means. Not this hippy 70's crap we get fed by these heretics.
Alex Collier was apparantly flamed in a thread by Mr Mask not so long back, and people got on Mr Masks case about it ...what they didnt do was truely examine the case . The truth is that all the spiritualist type of UFO believers are completely and utterly mental, or deliberately messing with us and earning from it in some cases. They have no proof, they have no witnesses, but they have hot air and insanity to go round the place a thousand fold, and so they attain followers , and they get noticed, and then all the logical thinkers in the UFO community get lumped in with them. And you know, that just makes the thinkers among us want to stand up , walk out the door, and park a heavy vehicle on these people so they can NEVER muddy the waters of legitimate UFO research again.
I WANT to see some real evidence for alien visitation, and there are plenty of cases out there that I consider to be genuine regardless of a couple of debunks and so on. At least those cases have some physical evidence attatched to them , witnesses who are almost bullet proof, army guys , cops, aviators and so on, ED GODAMN MITCHELL! If theres ever been a better person to believe regarding anything that ever happened in outerspace, it would be a person who flew missions with him ! Not some washed up useless hack with a vivid imagination.
Persons who cannot offer some evidence to back thier claims of contact, can feel free to blow off steam, I would just rather they did it quietly so that we can actualy get on with the scientific search for them from beyond the stars, rather than being hamstrung by s'n-word'ing disbelief , and an assumption held by the masses, that we are all strung out, drug addled, attention seeking fools .

OMG what the hell is wrong with the ATS word filter. Totaly legitimate word and it edits it? Godamn stupid useless machine !

[edit on 22-1-2010 by TrueBrit]

Originally posted by converge
Problem is most people can't stand to be in a suspended judgment mindset so to speak—most people have, apparently, the need to commit to a conclusion, even when there's not objectively enough evidence to reach one. Since these people have a need to commit to a conclusion, every little unverified story and con artist that is selling something that supports their conclusion gets accepted as actual evidence....

This is indeed the problem with the blind believers.

Blind believers have a pre-conceived notions of UFOs and aliens, so every story (no matter how little evidence it has) is automatically "believed" because it supports those pre-conceived notion

This is not a problem unique to UFOlogy -- it is a very common logical fallacy in today's world. There are some really stubborn "pseudo-skeptics" out there who also can't be shaken from their pre-conceived notions.

Don't say that UFOlogy is immune to this behavior, because it is not.

Blind believers and pseudo-skeptics are two sides of the same coin. Neither of them will budge, no matter what evidence is provide pro and con to their views.

Originally posted by easynow
...no might about it , this is a trolling motor designed to discredit and ridicule the believers.

cointelpro agents have a track record of using this technique

Originally posted by easynow
did i say the Op was a agent ?

no i did not , i said cointelpro agents use this techinique

You may not have out-and-out called the OP a cointelpro agent, but you DID call him a troll.

I don't think the OP was being trollish at all. I think he makes a great point about how the very vocal "radical fringe" of UFOlogy is hurting any serious attempts to study UFO phenomena.

I'm frankly surprised you don't see it that way.

[edit on 1/22/2010 by Box of Rain]

Hahaha.

It's been hours since I last heard the convincing sweaty man

How'd it go again??


Peoplum, puhleezum, giiivvvvum, yourum BritishMooneyUm..........

Twentytwelveum cannotdiscloseumunlessum yallniggazgivvum me madcabbage-um and showum me and u um jellydoughnuttum withum colas.

reply to post by spinalremain


Wow that was so incredible. I felt the alien speaking.

Can't wait to read all about alien channeling.