New Terror Attack / Patriot Act

Well I've been doing some thinking... With all this talk of high probability of another terrorist attack happening this summer, and talk about how many men al Qaeda has, etc, I've been thinking about the repercussions if such an attack was to happen. I've already asked questions on another thread such as "how are these terrorists here?" etc. If we know about them, I hope to God we're doing everything we can to stop them.

But here is where my wondering comes more into play. Say a huge terrorist attack does happen, or even a small one. It happened, we didn't stop it, and people died. What does that say about Homeland Security? What does it say about the Patriot Act?

I would say that if such an attack happened the Patriot Act should be deemed useless. It's supposed to protect us from terrorists, correct? So if it doesn't do its job, why should we keep it around? Oh sure, it's there in place to protect us from future attacks... But if we're attacked again, it will have failed. If we're attacked after that, it will have failed again. I hope we don't have another attack, but I also hope that if we are attacked again that people start to realize that the Patriot Act is a joke. It was put there to protect us, but what happens when it fails and people die?

Any thoughts? Criticisms? Agreements?

Edit: Title

[Edited on 26-5-2004 by Faisca]

Anybody... No? Hmm... I thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion, see what other people think and stuff.

If another terror attack happens, I believe that what this will tell about homeland security will be in the eye of the beholder. Anyone who considers themselves a conservative, and a supporter of the Bush administration will think the failure of homeland security and Patriot Act is the failure of "not enough." Conservatives will charge liberals with obstructing the work of the "good guys" and aiding and abetting the terrorists. Liberals will see it differently. Much of what people's perceptions will be will depend on where they get their information. For the conservatives there are talk radio shows to tell them what to think and say. For Liberals, there will be some knee-jerk sour grapes reactions predictable when your party is the underdog, and there will be some searching and citing of facts and figures from the "liberal" media. No one's opinion will change. It seems that our population is more politically polarized that I have ever seen it in my life. Whatever is really done about it will depend on who is in power and what will keep them in power, accompanied with all the spin needed to keep them lookin' good.

I think the only terrorist attack this summer will be by the US. We do alot worse!

You make good points, Tela. I hope it doesn't lead to more powers being granted, additional Patriot Act laws, etc. I hope it leads to people coming to see that these things are useless, and there is really nothing we can do to completely end terrorism. New laws, provisions, crackdowns, and other things that infringe on American's rights are not neccessary. It's a hard line to walk: how much is too much. But it is my opinion that the Patriot Act is too much, and I think if another attack happens it will truly show the act's failure.

Well there are two things that could happen to the Patriot Act if another major terrorist attack were to occur on US soil.

1) the patriot act would be strengthened because "it wasn't strong enough to do the job thouroughly." This line will most likely come from our Pres.

2) the patriot act will be disbanded because it didn't do its job. I don't think any one person in our govt will take this line but IMO and observation most members here on ATS will want this option.

Personally the patriot act is the biggest piece of sh-t ever put forth by our govt. It needs to go.

I agree!
Im not an advocate of the Patriot Act for starters. If there was another attack on American soil it should absolutely be thrown out, which it of course won't. It gives the government more power over its "children".
I guess its just not doing its job as I believe they are still trying to pass
patriot act the sequel. Another "terrorist" attack on our soils would the perfect excuse to push it in though. Just like they did with the original patriot act after 9/11..

So people write to your congressmen and tell them to get rid of the patriot act and forbid a sequel being pushed thru.'



Bu since when do our congressmen actually care?

In reply to NothingMakesSense, one of my coworkers was arguing with me about the Patriot Act. He said that if people cared enough, it would get changed. First of all I doubt the current gov't would allow it to be disbanded (though I wish it would), and second there is already a petition going around for its disbandment. It's been posted on ATS already, I signed it, you should too =)

posted by NothignMakesSense
So people write to your congressmen and tell them to get rid of the patriot act and forbid a sequel being pushed thru.'

I have actually

Further information on Stopping the New Patriot Act

I dont think you guys realize how many attacks are stopped daily...big and small...we get thousands of possibilities a day...and 99% of them never happen...we live in such a large...relatively free country...we are highly vunerable to attacks...i think the FBI, local PD's, etc are doing a great job...especially since most are extremely under-funded....if a terrorist wants to do something...eventually it'll get done...look at Isreal...look how locked down most of that country is...yet they still get attacked weekly it seems...we can only try our best with what we have...

Fiasca, I think if another terrorist attack happens, it will only serve to reinforce and strenghten the Patriot Act. It would give this administration the right to profile people by race, religion, etc in the name of fighting terrorism and justify their wish for support of Patriot Act I and II.

Any new terror attack would certainly lead to a strengthening of the Patriot Act. Additionally, I believe the mere threat of an attack this summer is going to lead to a growth in scope. I don't think it even has to go as far as a new attack, just new "incidents." As long as there are occasional blips on the radar of American consciousness that we are in danger, the masses will gladly accept any measure the government takes to protect us. I'm not going to say that there will be any actual manufactured attacks, however I do believe that there may be manufactured events to give the Patriot Act some "success." The horrible truth is that if the FBI were to arrest any Arab American, claim he was a member of a terrorist cell with nefarious plans, and the public would it eat it up with out question as how the government came to our rescue yet again.

In response to your original question as to how many terrorists there are, recent news reports were claiming that Al Qaeda alone had as many as 18,000 "fighters." Don't know about the rest of the terrorist groups out there.

As for what another attack would do...

I think most here have hit the proverbial nail right on its head. Conservatives will point to the past 3 "quiet" years as proof of the Patriot Act's good sense. They will likely push for Patriot Act II (which is interesting as the growth of government under such an act is decidedly against conservative principles). And, because so many of us are dispassionate about our personal liberties and property rights, we will acquiesce to the government's demands to take more of our freedoms in the name of security.

Libs will say (shocker) that the Pres. and Co. are utter failures and that they (libs) knew this would happen all along. They will, of course, not have any better suggestions, other than "get rid of Bush." But, they will nevertheless decry the administration's "failures" and use them for political talking points. Radical lefties will theorize that Bush himself was behind the attacks, orchestrating them for political gain and sympathy.

Nothing will get done amid cries of "partisanship" and "politicizing the issues."
Both sides will look like buffoons, and the great political wheel will continue turning.

Exhausting isn't it?

I'm not sure which side to pick anymore, so I'll just stick to cheeseburgers.

What about the Patriot Act bothers you?

Anyone?
Please tell me I must know.
Why does it suck?
I seriously want to know.

SuperKyle...

The Patriot Act infringes on basic rights of Americans. It includes provision that allow search and siezure without a true warrant, and without notification. It allows for the government to get any and all records and information about you with no probable cause, from anywhere from a library to a bank. It expands the definition of terrorism, under the Patriot Act groups like Greenpeace could be labeled terrorists. Among other things.

People always ask why I'm afraid of the Patriot Act. They say, "Well if you're a good citizen, and you don't break any laws, you're all set." Well I ask these questions:
What happens when the definition of good citizen changes?
What happens when anyone who speaks out against the government or has an organization that goes against the government becomes labeled a terrorist?
What happens when I take a book from the library on Islam and I'm flagged as being "a possible terrorist."?

I'm a good citizen, but I don't agree with our government policies and attitudes of late. I want to have the complete freedom to disagree with what the president deems is good for the country, and I'm afraid that the Patriot Act and Patriot Act II are just the first steps down a very dangerous path.

I see your points and concern and I thank you for not being sarcastic. Because you have been very nice too, I will continue the conversation.

What if someday, a bombing occurs and it could have been prevented if only the police in the surrounding area were able to immediately search the property of the terrorists. What if they had to wait even an hour to get search permission. In my ever humble opinion, if we ever get to the point that you would be arrested just for buying a Muslim Bible, its already too late to stop Big Brother. Besides that, these programs that will search and sift through information will flag much more than Koran or Muslim. It will seek out Bomb, bridge, tower, van, population. All kinds of things like that, and if a person is checking on all of those things, I would want somebody in authority to know about it.

What do you think, and I hope we maintain the good nature we have been.
If you take offense in any way to the things I have said just let me know. But please, post back, you have been very considerate and I thank you.

Any further staged attacks (I hate to label them as terrorist as I firmly believe that the CIA and other secret intelligence factions of the NWO are in control) will only serve to bring on Patriot Act III, IV, V......

It will never stop until there is complete control and all facets of life are under an Orwellian government. America is getting close..

I see the first patriot act being considered not enough and the Domestic Security Enhancement Act (patriot act 2) being fully implemented as anyone who is against it will be considered unpatriotic and a terror loving individual. I don't think the liberals will be able to do too much about it, unfortuneately. I myself will be purchasing some more munitions in case something crazy happens, rioting, etc, due to the passing of these new laws. I personally see a "Turner Diaries" type scenario coming about, with lots of smaller scale (at first) splinter groups forming to try to bring the government back to what it was before 9/11 though the use of Domestic terrorism, and lots of people becoming very discriminatory towards arabs, and middle easterns.


It would dawn the decline of the American Empire, and the start of the Fourth Reich within the US, becoming a trully Facist, Police State.


God save us all

The patriot act could also work another way as well. If you are in a position of power , have connections, information or certain skills, they could force you to do there bidding if it meant stopping terrorists. My concern in that case is if they would pay you or make it worth while.


But the patriot act can only stop targets they know about. At least if there were riots I'd have a reason not to get a summer job lol.