Moses and the Burning Bush... Manna anyone?

Originally posted by pause4thought
... what evidence would you like to present as to their not numbering 2 million...

Did you just ask someone to prove a negative?

reply to post by moocowman


As troubleshooter says, the evidence is there for those with an open mind.

There is so much reading out there it's difficult to know where to start. It is well known that there have long been nay-sayers trying to deny the exodus happened. There is also more than one paradigm as to the dating of the exodus. But corroborating evidence is available from a plethora of sources. Here is just a quick summary that brings some well-known evidence together in note form, which some might find convenient: Hebrews in Egypt.

As to the numbers I suppose some would never be satisfied unless they had a first-hand account of a census taken at the time of the exodus. The ultimate irony is that such a document already resides on most people's bookshelf, preserved by the Jewish people with exquisitely meticulous care. Some just can't see the wood for the trees, my friend.

...And there is absolutely no doubt that when it comes to said contemporary census we are talking truly massive numbers of people on the move:

The Population of the Exodus Jews

Obama eat your heart out: a nomadic tent-dweller with nothing but a staff in his hand pulled a bigger crowd than you — plus he led them for four decades through arid wasteland.




[edit to add:]

reply to post by Symbiote

Did you just ask someone to prove a negative?

You hit the nail on the head. moocowman was speaking as if he could!



[edit on 2/1/10 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by moocowman

 

Syncochronology...write it down and go take a look at one and cure your ignorance.

So Ad hom insults are evidence of this -

The earliest Old Testament manuscripts predate the existence of Egypt... ...only a fool or a devil would remove them from an account of human history...

Extraordinary claims require equally extraordinary evidence my friend an as such you have provided nothing but a word - Syncochronology.. which generates not one search result or appears in a dictionary -

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.

Nevertheless, as you are the one making the "fantastical" claim that - The earliest Old Testament manuscripts predate the existence of Egypt... ... the burden of proof is upon you.

Needless to say you are unable to do so and are obviously lied to or totally deluded.

reply to post by pause4thought

Aaron Kolom qualifies as a "rocket scientist" with over 50 years aerospace engineering: Stress Analyst to Chief of Structural Sciences on numerous military aircraft,

So this type of specialist proves that there were 2 million hebrew slaves captive in egypt ?

reply to post by moocowman


Nope. What I said was:

a quick summary that brings some well-known evidence together in note form

...But thanks for pointing out the calibre of the person who put the summary together.

reply to post by pause4thought

We do not believe that an exodus population of 2.5 million defies human reasoning in any way. It is a very believable number.

Well there you go 2.5 million slaves 600000 of them armed fighting men being held captive by a population (which would have included the slaves presumably) of barely 3 million.

Oh come on if you want conformation that there is zero evidence 2.5 million hebrews being held captive in Egypt drop this man a line and I'm sure he would be courteous enough to put you straight, not that I totally agree with Hawass but it may be a good start to enlightening your ignorance.

www.drhawass.com...

reply to post by moocowman


You appear to be a little behind the times, my friend. Even our esteemed friend is opening up to the possibility of a Hebrew presence:

The Whisper of Tombs

What isn't new is that secular archeologists often have their scepticism as to Biblical historicity eroded, or even blown away, by ongoing discoveries.

reply to post by pause4thought


Dude you must have been rooting around for ages trying to find that lol damn that was obscure.

You obviously didn't read this bit -

In addition to this, there has been prolonged controversy between Torah scholars and archaeologists over the credibility of Aper-al in fact being a Hebrew name.

This creates the impression that Hebrews were present in Egypt during the eighteenth dynasty, and that some Egyptianized Hebrews held senior state positions. It is important to emphasize that all the artefacts discovered in the Aper-al tomb, such as the sarcophagus, the mummies, as well as the carvings on the walls of the tomb, are consistent with the Egyptian style of the time. Even Aper-al’s portrait, his cloths, and his jewellery, are purely ancient Egyptian. This is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

For goodness sake dude

reply to post by moocowman

Dude you must have been rooting around for ages trying to find that lol damn that was obscure.

Nope. I already had it open on another tab when I read your (uninformed) post!!

My, we are having fun today, moo.

You obviously didn't read this bit -

In addition to this, there has been prolonged controversy between Torah scholars and archaeologists over the credibility of Aper-al in fact being a Hebrew name.

Wrong again. I read it very carefully. He is simply acknowledging that there is ongoing academic debate. In context, however, Dr. Hawass makes his own position abundantly clear:

The discovery of this tomb which took place almost 20 years ago remains an important archaeological event. The reason for this is that the person buried in the tomb was known as "Aper-al" and this is an Egyptianized form of a Hebrew name.

Perhaps you didn't let this sink in.

As for the artefacts being consistent with the Egyptian style of the time — what would you expect for Hebrews who had been in egypt for over 400 years? Dude.

Funny how you missed the irony of your own citation. And I quote:

Egyptianized Hebrews

:bnghd:


Happy New Year, moo.




[edit on 2/1/10 by pause4thought]

reply to post by pause4thought

As for the artefacts being consistent with the Egyptian style of the time — what would you expect for Hebrews who had been in egypt for over 400 years? Dude.

It's what I would expect from a vizier influenced by the Hyksos/Hapiru prior Amenhotep son inventing monothesim for no apparent reason.

Tell El Armana became a boiling pot of semetic influences invited in by Akhenaten , perhaps Arman was the birthplace of the Hebrew language itself.

Nevertheless one Egyptian vizier with a name that may possibly be of Hebrew origin does not prove that over 2 million Hebrews were held captive in Egypt.

If anything, this incident compounds the problem in that the individual was not a slave but a Vizier to the Pharaoh.

I've no doubt some would immediately jump to the conclusion that aper-al could have been one and the same person as joseph, and to be honest i don't think I would have much problem with that on the face of it.

Where I completely differ with you is that (as I've said all along) I am more inclined to consider that the "Hebrews" of the bibles, moses et al were more than likely Egyptians and the remnants of the cult of the Aten.

To my mind it is simpler to reconcile many of the similarities between Hebrew names and traditions etc and that of Egypt if the Hebrews are in fact descendants of the Egyptians.

reply to post by moocowman

I've no doubt some would immediately jump to the conclusion that aper-al could have been one and the same person as joseph, and to be honest i don't think I would have much problem with that on the face of it.

I'd reflected on my last post and realized I was overstating the possibility that the Egyptianization of the Hebrews was a result of a long-standing presence. My thoughts matched your own here. I recognise a fair-mindedness in your post in that you have not dismissed the possibility that Joseph might fit the bill, and you've thereby gained my respect.

Where I completely differ with you is that (as I've said all along) I am more inclined to consider that the "Hebrews" of the bibles, moses et al were more than likely Egyptians and the remnants of the cult of the Aten.

You are entirely welcome to reach your own conclusions, my friend. Incidentally, have you noticed the similarity with one of the most commonly-used names of the God of the Hebrews: Adonai? Just an observation.

The burning bush was a raspberry bush.

An Immortal raspberry bush at that.


I'm not joking.


As for Manna....
I tend to speculate it's a symbolic form of what is called in Hinduism as 'Amriti' .. or the nectar of immortality... which i secreted from a gland in 'heaven' (the head's nasal passage) and descends down the throat and into the stomach where it can be absorbed by the digestive process.

oh and by the way... Moses's Staff.... it's his penis.

I'm not fooling.
Most will laugh at this. That's how well protected the deep truth is.
The average joe will scoff at it.
The ancients and modern adepts KNOW.

-

reply to post by pause4thought

You are entirely welcome to reach your own conclusions, my friend. Incidentally, have you noticed the similarity with one of the most commonly-used names of the God of the Hebrews: Adonai? Just an observation.

It has been proposed by a couple of French linguists (trying to delve into the depths of my memory here so bare with me lol) that Addonai was derived from the Pharaoh Ay and as other Egyptian rulers would have been known as Lord etc.

The picture presented which interests me (although I'm not saying for a minute is exactly what happened just a possibility that seems to explain a lot of the problems of the exodus) and I'm more inclined to consider than taking the bibles accounts at face value.

Is that -
The Hebrews in question were a mixed bunch of people Priests,Soldiers, the general population etc leaving Akhetaten following the return of Thebes to Polytheism.

These people although Egyptian would have been quite a brew of mixed cultures initially imported into Armana by Akhenaten to develop the new Monotheistic religion.

One thought provoking question is why Akhenaten suddenly decided to reject the old ways where the hell did he get his big idea who was he flirting with or was it his fathers idea coming to fruition ?


Please bear in mind P4T I don't have an agenda or any beliefs I need to perpetuate in this ie nothing to lose. So, I can just look at things with an open mind and not reject anything because it doesn't fit my belief or what I would want to believe.

Could it be possible that Moses ans Aaron are allusions to Rameses and Horemheb ? The question is why not ? It would certainly account for a split over monotheism and polytheism during exile to Canaan a province of Egypt.

The incident with the golden calf could possibly better understood in the context of Egyptian people in exile. It would explain the calf in relation to Hathor (also alluded to by joseph ?) and how a group of bonded people acquired gold enough to create it to begin with.

In a nutshell, the exodus taken at face value is very hard to reconcile there are far too many problems and I as I have pointed out the sheer numbers is not the least of them.

But, if for just a minute one considers the possibility that the story of the exodus, was a somewhat encrypted account by the remnants Egyptian Atenians captive in Babylon an enemy of Egypt then pennies of possibilities may start to drop.