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Moses and the Burning Bush... Manna anyone?

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posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 03:42 AM
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Wasn't sure to place this in the substance thread or in conspiracies in religion thread, so Mods, can you help out here?

Ok on another thread, someone asked about Moses and hearing God.

Daily Bible Study refers to Manna www.keyway.ca...


What we do know for sure is:

* "Now the manna was like coriander seed, and its appearance like that of bdellium. The people went about and gathered it, and ground it in mills or beat it in mortars, and boiled it in pots, and made cakes of it; and the taste of it was like the taste of cakes baked with oil." (Numbers 11:7-8 RSV)

* "When the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell with it." (Numbers 11:9 RSV)

* During first 5 work days of the week, the people were only to gather enough for that day, because it would badly spoil before long (Exodus 16:19-20). On the sixth day however, they were to gather enough for 2 days because no manna came down during the Sabbath. The manna supplied on the sixth day did not spoil like it did on the other days (Exodus 16:23-26)

* The manna began about 1 month after the Exodus, and they ate it during the entire 40 years of the Wilderness Journey (Exodus 16:35).

* The manna stopped immediately after they entered the Promised Land under the leadership of Joshua:
"While the people of Israel were encamped in Gilgal they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month [see Bible Calendar and Bible Months] at evening in the plains of Jericho. And on the morrow after the Passover, on that very day, they ate of the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain. And the manna ceased on the morrow, when they ate of the produce of the land; and the people of Israel had manna no more, but ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year." (Joshua 5:10-12 RSV)

Jesus Christ spoke of manna, revealing its true significance:

"Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world." (John 6:31-33 RSV)

And

"I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh." (John 6:48-51 RSV)


However this website HERE states...


There are a great many people who would never consider the use of visionary plants to be a spiritual experience. These people believe that spiritual experiences must come directly from God and that the use of visionary plants goes against the teachings of the Bible. Contrary to this notion, the Bible never explicitly prohibits the use of visionary plants or potions. What you will find however, is many curious references to a spiritual food sent down from heaven by God, called manna.

The Bible never tells us exactly what manna was and where it came from, but there are many Old Testament passages which describe its physical qualities and conditions associated with its appearance. The Bible's first reference to manna is in the Book of Exodus as the children of Israel are fleeing from Egypt and following Moses into the wilderness. After six weeks of wandering, they began complaining to Moses that they are tired and hungry. What happens next is truly extraordinary:


So basically, Moses injested Manna, and thus the burning bush and thus God Spoke to him.

So in the age of Aries (Ram), when Moses said to stop worshiping false idols (Bull - Age of Taurus), he came down from the mountain having a heavy spiritual experience after injesting Manna..... It seems it was quite a common thing to do back then, harvest the Manna in the morning, then go into prayer and thus God Spoke.

Oh, and here's a thread on 'If God Spoke, What Language would God Speak'




posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 04:21 AM
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reply to post by Im a Marty
 



So basically, Moses injested Manna, and thus the burning bush and thus God Spoke to him.

Was that before, or after, he appeared before Pharaoh in a flowered T-shirt, removed his shades and said: "Nice chair, man." ?

Well unfortunately it was before. Which means it happened well before he returned to Egypt, well before the Hebrews were freed, even longer before they ever got to the wilderness, never mind got their hands on the weed(?) from Heaven.

Nice try, dude. Incidentally I hope it wouldn't break the Ts&Cs if I ask what exactly you were doing at the time you dreamt this thread up?..



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 06:19 AM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 


Heh, if you're implying that i smoke the wacky tabaccy, then no, i don't do that


Im not for the usage of such substances, this thread is to discuss mainly what 'Manna' was, what Moses did, free the people etc.. is irrespective of whatever he injests is it not? i don't dispute his actions, just wanted to clarify what Manna was



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 





Well unfortunately it was before. Which means it happened well before he returned to Egypt, well before the Hebrews were freed, even longer before they ever got to the wilderness, never mind got their hands on the weed(?) from Heaven.

Quite an assertion considering the lack of evidence that Moses even existed and that there was never 2 million Hebrew slaves in Egypt to be freed.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 06:39 AM
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reply to post by Im a Marty
 





'Manna' was, what Moses did, free the people etc.. is irrespective of whatever he injests is it not? i don't dispute his actions, just wanted to clarify what Manna was

I'm at a loss to find my references (tucked away in my files somewhere) but some time ago I came across a fungi which appears in the dessert mornings and is used as food by nomads.

For the life of me I can't recall what it was at the mo but will try and dig it out later.

Some writers such as Lawrence Gardiner suggest that Manna may have been monotonic gold and was consumed for enlightenment purposes. If i recall correctly Gardiner proposed a link with manna and the incident with the golden calf where the gold is eaten.

Perhaps it could be the case, of remnants of descriptions of the practice of different product consumptions, had overlayed each other over a period of time and when the myths eventually got written down the meanings were lost.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Im a Marty
 





'Manna' was, what Moses did, free the people etc.. is irrespective of whatever he injests is it not? i don't dispute his actions, just wanted to clarify what Manna was

I'm at a loss to find my references (tucked away in my files somewhere) but some time ago I came across a fungi which appears in the dessert mornings and is used as food by nomads.

For the life of me I can't recall what it was at the mo but will try and dig it out later.

Some writers such as Lawrence Gardiner suggest that Manna may have been monotonic gold and was consumed for enlightenment purposes. If i recall correctly Gardiner proposed a link with manna and the incident with the golden calf where the gold is eaten.

Perhaps it could be the case, of remnants of descriptions of the practice of different product consumptions, had overlayed each other over a period of time and when the myths eventually got written down the meanings were lost.


That could have been it actually, the original source of the description of Manna was by Jordan Maxwell, and I believe he may have sourced it from Gardiner too, not sure about that though... IF you find it, can you post and give us a heads up


Cheers



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 06:54 AM
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reply to post by Im a Marty
 

You have the chronology wrong.

Moses wacked an Egyptian for what he saw as an injustice against an Israelite...
...he then went into a self-imposed exile...
...he married and tended sheep.

Years later he heard the Lord speak to him from a burning bush.

This was followed by a series of events that resulted in the release of Israel from Egyptian slavery.

The first Manna was provided once they were free as a source of food...
...about a lunar month into the Exodus...
...not much is known about it more than you have provided...
...but it must have contained the ninety essential nutrients needed to sustain human life.

Moses was therefore not influenced by some 'power plant' when he heard the Lord in the bush...
...no chemically induced euphoria is required to hear the Lord...
...and may actually mitigate against it.

I use no psychoactive substances (except coffee occasionally) but I hear the Spirit's 'voice' when necessary.




posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 06:57 AM
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reply to post by Im a Marty
 


Yeah dude I'm still rooting around my docs (loads and crap at finding stuff lol) .

Be prepared though as It may be a book reference as I'm forever wandering libraries so it could be info in real paper lol.

Thought just occurred to me a vaguely remember a documentary about the fungus but for the life of me can't remember.

Try this vid i can't remember if LG discusses it here



Google Video Link
where



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 07:03 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 





Moses was therefore not influenced by some 'power plant' when he heard the Lord in the bush.


Get a grip man there's no evidence for the reality of moses so to go about what he did or did not do is silly.

As the Egyptians were later found to have been using tobacco and coc aine if moses was in fact a real person there's no telling what he may have been getting high on as he would more than likely be an Egyptian.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 07:07 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 



Quite an assertion considering the lack of evidence that Moses even existed and that there was never 2 million Hebrew slaves in Egypt to be freed.


I don't believe you exist. I mean I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions simply on the basis of written evidence.



reply to post by Im a Marty
 


Thanks for clarifying. You had me worried for a moment.



just wanted to clarify what Manna was

OK, good question. The Hebrew word itself reflects the bewilderment the people felt when they first saw it. The people asked "What (Hebrew= man) is it?"



Then Moses continued, "You will know it is the LORD when he gives you meat each evening and more than enough bread each morning. He is really the one you are complaining about, not us--we are nobodies--but the LORD has heard your complaints."

9 Moses turned to Aaron and said, "Bring the people together, because the LORD has heard their complaints."

10 Aaron was speaking to them, when everyone looked out toward the desert and saw the bright glory of the LORD in a cloud. 11 The LORD said to Moses, 12 "I have heard my people complain. Now tell them that each evening they will have meat and each morning they will have more than enough bread. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God."

13 That evening a lot of quails came and landed everywhere in the camp, and the next morning dew covered the ground. 14 After the dew had gone, the desert was covered with thin flakes that looked like frost. 15 The people had never seen anything like this, and they started asking each other, " What is it?" Moses answered, " This is the bread that the LORD has given you to eat.


(Taken from Exodus 16)

As to exactly what the substance was, it is interesting to note that certain parallels have been noted with unusual occurrences in more recent times. Perhaps the most striking is as follows:


In South Algeria in 1932 and also about 70 years before, after unusual weather 'there were falls of a whitish, odourless, tasteless matter of a farinaceous kind which covered tents and vegetation each morning' (A. Rendle Short, Modern Discovery and the Bible, 1952, p.152). Also in 1932, a white substance like manna one morning covered an area of ground 640 x 18m on a farm in Natal and was eaten by the natives (H.S. Gehman in the Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, 1944, p.375a). ...the provision of the manna remains ultimately in the realm of the miraculous, especially in its continuity, quantity and 6-day periodicity.

Source: IVP New Bible Dictionary

As you very rightly noted, the purpose of this provision was allegorical, in that it pointed forward to the day when Christ would relinquish his body such that those who trust in that act would receive not physical, but spiritual life.



[edit to add quote]

[edit on 2/1/10 by pause4thought]



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by troubleshooter
 



Moses was therefore not influenced by some 'power plant' when he heard the Lord in the bush.

Get a grip man there's no evidence for the reality of moses so to go about what he did or did not do is silly.

Now seeing as Israel is the only nation to have survived from the time of Moses to the present...
...I guess they would know if there was a Moses or not...eh?.

Egyptian history only recorded achievements and never failures...
...so don't expect any intel from this dead history....
...although you can read a little between the lines of their fiction.




posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 





I don't believe you exist. I mean I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions simply on the basis of written evidence.


So the bibles are written evidence that Moses actually existed ?

The bibles comment that moses led 2 million slaves out of captivity in egypt there is absolutely no evidence of this ever happening as there was not 2 million Hebrew slaves in Egypt. If one tale is tall then it would be wise not to take any other tale with no evidence at face value.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 07:31 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


How is it I somehow knew I'd get a response from a non-existent person? Must be because I've got faith. Silly me.


The bibles comment that moses led 2 million slaves out of captivity in egypt there is absolutely no evidence of this ever happening as there was not 2 million Hebrew slaves in Egypt.

So you are one of those people who believes absence of evidence would be evidence of absence. Hmmm.

I note with interest that you deliberately avoid the vain assertion that there is no evidence of Hebrew slaves in Egypt. A wise move.


As to the numbers, "there was not 2 million Hebrew slaves in Egypt", — says who? I infer that you know of the external evidence for their existence in Egypt; so what evidence would you like to present as to their not numbering 2 million, seeing as you introduce this confident assertion?

As to your dismissal of the Bible as direct first-hand evidence, your ignorance as to such matters is well known on the board. Or, more precisely, your aversion to it's testimony in the light of the way it contradicts your (non-too subtle) agenda.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 07:38 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 




Now seeing as Israel is the only nation to have survived from the time of Moses to the present... ...I guess they would know if there was a Moses or not...eh?.



Dude what the hell are you talking about ?
You cannot say in what time moses lived and be exact as you've no evidence for his reality.

So you are proposing that there was a time (but you don't know when) that the only nations on earth were the Egyptians and Israel ? Get a grip dude I've never heard such biblical bollocks please provide evidence.




Egyptian history only recorded achievements and never failures... ...so don't expect any intel from this dead history.... ...although you can read a little between the lines of their fiction.

Once again you're off in wonderland the Egyptians not only recorded a great deal of their general life and dealings they left "Artifacts" buildings and so on .
From this information it is possible to observe that during the vague area of time that moses is alleged to have led the slaves out of "captivity". The Egyptian population would have been around 3 million people, 2 million slaves (600000 of them armed men) up and leaving Egypt wasn't worthy of recording is that what your claiming ???

Dude it simply didn't happen not only do you fail to provide evidence but you fail to address the evidence to the contrary.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by pause4thought
 



I don't believe you exist. I mean I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions simply on the basis of written evidence.

So the bibles are written evidence that Moses actually existed ?
The bibles comment that moses led 2 million slaves out of captivity in egypt there is absolutely no evidence of this ever happening as there was not 2 million Hebrew slaves in Egypt. If one tale is tall then it would be wise not to take any other tale with no evidence at face value.

I am truely amazed how arrogant ignorance can be.

I am a historian and timelines are my hobby...
...I know where the secular histories intersect with the history of Israel.

Bible is the word for 'book'...
...so The Bible simply means The Book...
...it is a collection of manuscripts written over about a 3500 year time-span.

The earliest Old Testament manuscripts predate the existence of Egypt...
...only a fool or a devil would remove them from an account of human history...
...are you a fool or a devil?




posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 





As to the numbers, "there was not 2 million Hebrew slaves in Egypt", — says who?


Apparently the bibles my friend according to apologists

Is it possible that the Israelis grew from a clan of 70 to a nation of 2-3 million that left Egypt in the Exodus 430 years later? Is the Bible's depiction of scenarios associated with this event reasonable?

The answer is yes -- the Exodus, although an event blessed often by divine intervention, does not in and of itself beyond that offer any scenarios that are unreasonable or impossible. It is our purpose in this essay to examine some common objections to the practical historicity of this event; that is, not issues having to do with archaelogy, for example, but whether such a mass movement of people is people is possible at all within the context of what is claimed in the Bible.

We may begin by answering the most fundamental objection of all -- whether indeed that initial clan of 70 could have grown to 2-3 million within the required timeframe.










I infer that you know of the external evidence for their existence in Egypt; so what evidence would you like to present as to their not numbering 2 million, seeing as you introduce this confident assertion?



Dude it's quite simple, provide evidence of 2 million hebrews being held in bondage in Egypt. If you disagree with the (apparently conservative) number pleas provide evidence of 600000 hebrew men of arms being held captive in Egypt and subsequently exiling.







As to your dismissal of the Bible as direct first-hand evidence,


How on earth are scriptures written possibly hundreds of years after an alleged event and authors unknown, first hand evidence ?





your ignorance as to such matters is well known on the board. Or, more precisely, your aversion to it's testimony in the light of the way it contradicts your (non-too subtle) agenda.


Oh grow up why on earth do you people have to constantly swim in a bucket of Ad hom .



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 





The earliest Old Testament manuscripts predate the existence of Egypt... ...only a fool or a devil would remove them from an account of human history...


Please provide evidence for this



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by troubleshooter
 





The earliest Old Testament manuscripts predate the existence of Egypt... ...only a fool or a devil would remove them from an account of human history...


Please provide evidence for this

I am not sure what evidence would satisfy you...
...but there are several synchrochronologies that have the origins of Canaan, Egypt, Chaldea, Greece and China beginning around 17 - 18 BC.

You can access these from most good libraries...
...but be careful they may conflict with your prejudices, preconceptions and presuppositions...
...of which you seem to have many.




posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 08:30 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 




give this post a star
posted on 2-1-2010 @ 08:21 AM single this post "quote"REPLY TO:

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by troubleshooter







The earliest Old Testament manuscripts predate the existence of Egypt... ...only a fool or a devil would remove them from an account of human history...




Please provide evidence for this




I am not sure what evidence would satisfy you...



A piece of biblical manuscript that is let's say, radio carbon dated to predate Egyptian civilization should be easy enough for you to produce.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 08:45 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 

Synchrochronology...write it down and go take a look at one and cure your ignorance.



[edit on 2/1/10 by troubleshooter]



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