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"Who is John Galt?"

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posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by seethelight

Encouraging capitalism by bashing Wal-Mart - Not to bright

Kinda like encouraging freedom by promoting a fascist.


It's encouraging capitalism by removing the artificial barriers put in place that make start-up and growth unnecessarily difficult for the individual and small business. Such as holding a farm with 50 chickens to the same fees and taxes as a farm with 50,000 chickens.

Walmart can thrive fairly safely because government is keeping the competition down either intentionally or unintentionally.

The side-effect of this is that a handful of companies grow to unnatural levels and buy their influence in politics supporting more regulation and legislation to protect their place at the top even more and engaging in various levels of social engineering to ensure the consumer base they have never grows up and out of a certain economic zone.

I think either your focus is too narrow or you're intentionally not getting it so you can continue to pass the time here in this thread.




posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by seethelight
 


You are absolutely mistaken. I was discussing Rand, not my own "base instincts," thank you so very much. I won't discuss myself here, but I will tell you I am not a selfish person, in fact, quite the contrary.

To the OP:

I believe that unrestricted corporate capitalism is dividing our country into several unsavory segments, and worry that if something is not accomplished to get it under control, the middle class will become extinct, and join the ranks of the "have-nots". This is not something I would look forward to.


I appreciate your concerns and share them with you, I would however, argue that what you call "unrestricted corporate capitalism" is not capitalism at all but is what John Kenneth Galbraith termed as oligopolism. Capitalism has three basic tenets that must necessarily be adhered to in order for it to be capitalism. These three tenets are:

1) A free and unregulated Marketplace.

2.) Massive competition.

3.) A uniform currency backed by real wealth whereby all can agree on the value of this currency.

Not one of these tenets exists in today's "free market" system. Regulation is the order of the day and corporations spend billions of dollars every year to lobby Congress and state legislatures to create even more regulations. You don't think the mom and pop businesspeople are lobbying for more regulation do you? You don't think regulation is accomplished by the sheer will of unions and American socialists do you? It happens because want it to happen, because it helps them to destroy...

Massive competition! Corporations despise competition and both Pepsi and Coca-Cola have conspired to shut out any would be competitors just as every major corporation does. Coca-Cola will tolerate Pepsi and vice versa due to anti-trust laws, but allow massive competition? Right. Fuggedaboutit! Corporations will through lobbying for intrusive legislation, through aggressive business practices and/or leveraged buy outs, do what they can to destroy competition.

This leaves us with a currency backed by wealth that all can agree upon the value of that currency. You do realize that the U.S. has been relying upon fiat currency since Nixon was President, right? As long as we are reliant on fiat money we have no currency backed by wealth and all we can agree on is that it is useless and can only have any real worth if it is backed by consumer confidence.

Corporatism, or oligopolism is the problem not laissez faire capitalism. Capitalism is what both the poor and middle class need if they are to continue their necessary rise up and to ensure they flourish and prosper. Capitalism will never be allowed to operate under the three tenets I just listed as long as we keep agreeing to the system in place today.



Your logic is becoming more and more tangled (which I thought was impossible).

You're now choosing to both deride corporations who selfishly destroy competition (a good thing as far as Rand is concerned), while simultaneously (And not surprisingly, erroneously) claiming that unfettered capitalism will provide more opportunities for the poor.

On the first point: it's ironic that you don't mind a little pro-capitalism terrorism and murder, but once businesses make it hard for competition to thrive, you get upset.

On point two: America has had one of the strongest love affairs with unfettered capitalism of any country in the world YET during it's peak (GW's term) American's ability to move up the social ladder diminished.

Turns out the closer we get to Rand's false-utopia, the harder it is for the little guy to succeed.

It's kinda cute to be a teenager shouting meaningless slogans... it's less attractive on a full-grown adult.

Unfettered capitalism doesn't work. The less regulated the market the harder it is for small businesses to compete with corporations.

BTW: The whole fiat currency nonsense would be meaningful if the US were the only country without a gold standard, but obviously, that's not the case.

Like I said, there's not enough gold in the world to revert to a gold standard without SERIOUSLY devaluing our currency.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by seethelight

Encouraging capitalism by bashing Wal-Mart - Not to bright

Kinda like encouraging freedom by promoting a fascist.


It's encouraging capitalism by removing the artificial barriers put in place that make start-up and growth unnecessarily difficult for the individual and small business. Such as holding a farm with 50 chickens to the same fees and taxes as a farm with 50,000 chickens.

Walmart can thrive fairly safely because government is keeping the competition down either intentionally or unintentionally.

The side-effect of this is that a handful of companies grow to unnatural levels and buy their influence in politics supporting more regulation and legislation to protect their place at the top even more and engaging in various levels of social engineering to ensure the consumer base they have never grows up and out of a certain economic zone.

I think either your focus is too narrow or you're intentionally not getting it so you can continue to pass the time here in this thread.


I'm pretty sure that ARI disagrees.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 11:25 AM
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reply to post by seethelight
 


Still you continue to rely upon fallacious arguments exposing yourself to all who would see who you are. You have no valid arguments to offer and so you are forced to rely upon fallacious arguments rather than simply admit that you advocate tyranny and collectivism and hate individuals and want everybody to be restrained to act no better than the lowest common denominator. You expect to win debates simply by declaring your opponent wrong and yourself right and then get terribly flustered when you discover no one is buying your nonsense and feel horribly picked on and unfairly singled out as being the trouble maker when all you want to to do is...well, cause trouble and destroy what others would build. It has been interesting seethelight, but I am bored with this now, and would like to have an intelligent conversation for a while.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 11:26 AM
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reply to post by seethelight
 


Who said anybody was a "follower" of Rand? And you presume to judge my intelligence? What is wrong with you?

Whether you like it (or know it) or whether you don't, Ayn Rand happens to be one of the most brilliant novelists and thinkers of our time. Millions of people the world over have discussed her books and philosophies for decades. (Surprised?).

Sorry, everything you are saying is so off-topic I have no interest in continuing a discussion with you on this thread.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by seethelight
 


Who said anybody was a "follower" of Rand? And you presume to judge my intelligence? What is wrong with you?

Whether you like it (or know it) or whether you don't, Ayn Rand happens to be one of the most brilliant novelists and thinkers of our time. Millions of people the world over have discussed her books and philosophies for decades. (Surprised?).

Sorry, everything you are saying is so off-topic I have no interest in continuing a discussion with you on this thread.



hahahaha... so you aren't bright then... selfishness is Rand's main tenet.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by seethelight
 


Still you continue to rely upon fallacious arguments exposing yourself to all who would see who you are. You have no valid arguments to offer and so you are forced to rely upon fallacious arguments rather than simply admit that you advocate tyranny and collectivism and hate individuals and want everybody to be restrained to act no better than the lowest common denominator. You expect to win debates simply by declaring your opponent wrong and yourself right and then get terribly flustered when you discover no one is buying your nonsense and feel horribly picked on and unfairly singled out as being the trouble maker when all you want to to do is...well, cause trouble and destroy what others would build. It has been interesting seethelight, but I am bored with this now, and would like to have an intelligent conversation for a while.



The fact is, you have no real response to the meat of my position, which is that Rand is a hack who's ideas are crap.

Here's something to think about:

If corporations found a way to manipulate government to help them become the most successful business, wouldn't that both ruin your idea of markets defending each others right to competition and undermine your idea that businesses shouldn't be regulated by an impartial government.

the fact is that businesses control government.

They're the ones preventing competition, not bureaucrats.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 11:53 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:04 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by seethelight

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Chevalerous
 


I am not interested in any leader and am more interested in how I can flourish and prosper without having to ask the damned government for permission to do so. I remain skeptical that all these anti-Rand and Galt posters have really taken the time to read Atlas Shrugged. Galt was a leader of a movement to withdraw from a bogus system.

You, just like the other poster have declared Ayn Rand and a fictional character both as idiots without offering one argument as to why they are and then remarkably declare: "...enough Said!" All righty then...



Ayn Rand's hero's used terrorism.

Sounds uplifiting.

Here's a quote from Rand about Native Americans:

"They didn’t have any rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using . . . . What was it that they were fighting for, when they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their ‘right’ to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, but just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or a few caves above it. Any white person who brings the element of civilization has the right to take over this continent."

She also openly asked he would-be lover to cheat on his wife... what values.

More about this hero:

Rand had become addicted to amphetamines while writing The Fountainhead, and her natural paranoia and aggression were becoming more extreme as they pumped though her veins. Anybody in her circle who disagreed with her was subjected to a show trial in front of the whole group in which they would be required to repent or face expulsion. Her secretary, Barbara Weiss, said: "I came to look on her as a killer of people." The workings of her cult exposed the hollowness of Rand's claims to venerate free thinking and individualism. Her message was, think freely, as long as it leads you into total agreement with me.



Ahh! maybe you don't understand me?

America is the terrorists in the modern world!

By waging terrorism and create more terrorits, the swaying American empire can delay its decay.

Man! it's not a random slump that Ford and the military complex chosed the name "Rand Corporation" you know!

Don't get me wrong here since I love America and have being playing one year highschool icehockey in the beautiful state of Minnesota once, and even went as far to the finals in the Twin Cities.

But from an outside perspective and since the neocon rape, the beautiful America has lost the most important thing which made America great!

the fair play!!

Well! it started long before the neocons I agree, but they took it to the world - and here we are!

Because I have lived in America (a short time though) I'm convinced that America can be great again!

But not as long as you keep fighting American against American in a two party fascist system, then we all be slaves eventually!

Rise up! take your country back! be men!

And women of course!


You guys start the world revolution, because you have guns - and I promise you that we will follow the next day!

Don't let us down this time America!

It's in your hand to save the world - and this time we will love you for it, promise!

C'mon! get your fat asses out of that sofa!


God save America and the world from the horrible Rand Corporation - burn those awful books that bear that horrible name! - burn them I say!


Vive la révolution


[edit on 30-12-2009 by Chevalerous]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:10 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:11 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:13 PM
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Please... everyone.

Return to the topic and away from each other.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:25 PM
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reply to post by Chevalerous
 


I will say that as controversial as Rand's idea's have been, they were very unique, especially for the time in which they were written.

Whether or not I agree with her ideas, they are original and brilliant, and the novels are absolutely fascinating; the characters are awesome.

Masqua: Sorry about the off topic post. I knew it, but I did it anyway.
Go figure.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by Chevalerous
 


I will say that as controversial as Rand's idea's have been, they were very unique, especially for the time in which they were written.

Whether or not I agree with her ideas, they are original and brilliant, and the novels are absolutely fascinating; the characters are awesome.

Masqua: Sorry about the off topic post. I knew it, but I did it anyway.
Go figure.


Yes the books with the character Galt is greatly written, but in context with the recent developments in the world in the neocon name, I'm sorry my beautiful friend! - but this has stained Americas good name in the world.

To understand me correctly, you have to look pass the author and the character in this book and look at America from an outside perspective - only then you can understand the the greatness of Rand and Galt!

I'm sorry! but her work & philosophy was hijacked by a cabal who made this world, not a better place - but much much worse in the name of America.

These thieves and traitors of the night hides under a mix of artificial philophies which they want to call their own - which non of this is not true of course!-sorry beautiful friend!

They are using every possible means possible to seduce the American public!

But don't worry though! - it's the same modus operandi here in Europe as well! - that's why it's soo damn important that we fight this good fight together and not alone!

With love sincerely - Chevalerous


[edit on 30-12-2009 by Chevalerous]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:44 PM
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reply to post by Chevalerous
 


Holding Ayn Rand responsible for the actions of the Rand Corporation today is tantamount to holding Jesus Christ responsible for the actions of the Catholic Church. It is hard to imagine how one could declare themselves a rational thinker in favor of enlightened self interest and in the same breath declare themselves an adherent to some sort Randian religion or movement, even if that movement be objectivism.

I also find it ironic that both of the detractors in this thread have either openly or tacitly advocated violent revolution while dismissing the notion of a peaceful and quiet revolution done through rational self interest and personal choice.

You yourself offer an admiration for the U.S. in their supposed fair play but then turn around and advocate book burning. Perhaps your not aware of this, but in the U.S. part of our sense of fair play comes from acknowledging the rights of all people to freely believe what they choose to believe, to freely speak those beliefs and a freedom of press to publish those beliefs, so burning books would be considered unfair, for those who care about fair play.

I think you are right though to label Americans as the terrorists as long as We the People continue to allow the government we are in charge of to rampage across the world abrogating and derogating the rights of others in the name of DEMOCRACY, then we deserve the unfortunate title of terrorists.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by Chevalerous

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by Chevalerous
 


I will say that as controversial as Rand's idea's have been, they were very unique, especially for the time in which they were written.

Whether or not I agree with her ideas, they are original and brilliant, and the novels are absolutely fascinating; the characters are awesome.

Masqua: Sorry about the off topic post. I knew it, but I did it anyway.
Go figure.


Yes the books with the charater Galt is great written, but in context with the recent developments in the world with a neocon name, I'm sorry my beautiful friend! - but this has stained Americas good name in the world.

To understand me correctly, you have to look pass the author and the character in this book and look at America from an outside perspective - only then you can understand the the greatness of Rand and Galt!

I'm sorry! but her work & philosophy was hijacked by a cabal who made this world, not a better place - but much much worse in the name of America.

These thieves and traitors of the night hides under a mix of artificial philophies which they wants to call their own - that's not true!

They are using every possible means to seduce the American public!

But don't worry though! - it's the same modus operandi here in Europe as well! - that's why it's soo damn important that we fight this good fight together and not alone!

With love sincerely - Chevalerous


Dang! I no sooner posted that last post than I read this one and now seem to be confused. It appears you are not blaming Ayn Rand for the Rand Corporation but are somehow suggesting that the Rand corporation hijacked her philosophy which would be about the same as what the Catholic Church did to Jesus philosophy. Of course, I would no sooner suggest we burn the bible because of this, (Although Ayn Rand might), than I would suggest we burn Rand's books.

It is heartening to see you are willing to fight the good fight and it is my sincerest hope that we do fight together and responsibly so, not recklessly so, which is to say, avoid a violent confrontation until all other avenues of change have been exhausted. It is better to be victorious by encouraging your enemies to surrender without ever fighting than to win through fighting. This is all I am saying.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 01:34 PM
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OP

Sorry bud, repeat of 08


But this not all lizard brain stuff


I will respond soon, without going janky, already janked up enough



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 02:18 PM
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That book is about capitalism. Capitalism is presented as - those who want work, those who don't want don't work and don't have. Freedom ! Nothing said about people working to survive, any kind of work, or about the environment.

Child Labor

Amazing Pictures, Pollution in China

The Gospel of Consumption

The Story of Stuff





[edit on 30-12-2009 by pai mei]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by Silver Shadow
Yes, very prophetic.

The roots of America's corruption, and coming destruction go back a very long way.


Yes, to 1776.

The Occultic influence is blatant.



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