Kucinich Announces the End of Class Warefare and the Defeat of the Middle Class. , page 5

reply to post by poet1b

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We were not in on the 90's tech stock bubble. You would need to have "excess" to invest. Hard as it is to believe, no. We fared better under Bush but that could simply have been from a decade of earned pay raises not entitlements I will grant you. We certainly did not go backwards.

Yes, we are in agreement on the shifting. The rats are trying to find a safe house prior to the 2010 elections. For instance, when was the last time McCain got off his bi-partisan pedestal? He didn't say boo last summer as this travesty was taking shape. But on the edge of the precipice when the outcome is inevitable he grows a spine? It just so happens he is up for re-election in 2010. I didn't need a crystal ball or Google to tell me that. I saw his bad acting for what it is. He is after all the phony conservative that took a dive in the last election. Why should anyone think he has changed his stripes? But some still support him, what can I say about that? I firmly believe if the Republican votes were needed to cram through this bill they would have them. Lindsey Graham and McCain would be there in a heartbeat. This health care bill or better stated health insurance bill is so complex that you can argue in favor or against and show justification for either stance. It's a money grab at heart and nothing more. These Rinos are not needed that's why the Democrats have "shut them out". That's for our benefit. That's to convince us not to throw out all the incumbents in November including the Rinos. The controllers don't own third party candidates and don't want to honestly compete. They've legislated to effectively exclude third party candidates long ago but these people leave nothing to chance.

The historical roles played by the parties have shifted over the decades. That's true and will continue as needed. Many of the working and middle class still see the Democrats as their saviors but that has shifted as you noted. The Dems and Obama drew support from the working class with their anti-war stance as the working class noticed they were cannon fodder once again. But in general lose your job and/or get heavily taxed and your hope for change goes out the window. But you mention that the Dems have been courting the minorities and immigrants and I say paving the way for legalizing tens of millions of those immigrants. The poor still don't have a pot to piss in but they haven't seen a down-grade and the immigrants still see this country as better than home. And so the poor (Acorn coaxed and bribed) and these "new citizens" will continue to line up behind their Democratic buddies who are undercutting the working class jobs making it once again more profitable for big industry to hire and manufacture here. I emphasize more as it was always profitable but we're talking unbridled greed.

NAFTA did nothing more than bounce exploitation of the working class from country to country and continent to continent. From Mexico to Indonesia to Korea to China to Ireland and India. I know I'm forgetting a few and have them out of sequence. These nations are all left holding an empty bag just like the US where it all started and now it has come back around to us as we are now on the verge of becoming a third world nation. Prime pickings. Just look at Detroit and Cleveland. The stage is set, there is plenty of available housing. You can fit multiple shifts of immigrant workers into a modest sized home in the suburbs of these once important manufacturing centers. We see this where I live just outside NYC. My wife works for a real estate lawyer and she sees this daily. Someone trying to sell a home where inspection reveals every room has been sublet to multiple people. Rooms divided with cardboard, camping stoves, you name it. Everything's in place for a stimulus supported "urban renewal". The remaining global manufacturers, company stores as I like to call them, will come back and look like white knights for doing so. Buying up the vacant blocks for next to nothing to build their "green" factories. You and I will be forced by "green" legislation to replace the few remaining items of value we have long before their useful demise. My truck is ten years old, runs like a top, no smoke, always passes the emission testing, I pay for preventative maintenance, support my local mechanic, treat it like it should last forever and for what? To be convinced by the "cash for clunkers" scam that the country and the world is better with it in a landfill? Light bulbs ring a bell? A fifty cent item becoming ten dollars overnight and toxic to boot. The energy savings was touted from the outset but the toxicity was downplayed, thank you AlGore and your 12 times the avg energy use Nashville mansion. Oh yes he improved that and why not? He could throw all kinds of money at it once he replaced his tobacco earnings with the ill-gotten gains from his movie and "green" investments. Renovating the house was a drop in the bucket for this elitist puppet. He would have garnered so much more cred if he had done so prior to his environmental preaching but he underestimated the chance someone would call BS on him. That's how little respect these elitists have for anyone. Our throw-away society on steroids. That's not a shade of green I am comfortable with.

This is a tag-team match. One wrestler holds us and the other kicks us in the groin. I think Obama and his socialist scams will be viewed as relatively benign when compared to the guy that replaces him. I'm not saying that out of the convenience of the unknown. I truly think that with the next pendulum shift and the next wrestler to "tag in" we will feel the pain. If I seem all over the map here, well that's the reality. We are being attacked on multiple fronts by a single enemy. One party.

Originally posted by Hemisphere
reply to post by Oldnslo

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Sorry if I stole some of your thunder Oldnslo. I was similarly inspired and had not yet read your post.

No problem with me. Spot on posts. I'd cover your back anytime!!


To poet1b, all I have to say is wait until this time next year and see if you have the same beliefs.

Hemisphere listed many individuals with Obama's Administration. I suggest you check into their sordid backgrounds before you continue to go after GW's men, a year after they're gone.

Besides, George W. Bush is old news and your man is in deep excrement.

"Silent Cal" was the worst President? BULL. Any POTUS that believes in a smaller, more limited government, as he did, is A-OK in my book. The less the Federal Government does, the better it is for American people. You have not learned this yet. You will soon, I'm afraid.

Continue with your diatribe.

reply to post by Oldnslo

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That is list is a bunch of propaganda BS. Its only purpose tp get people chasing their tales while they are robbed blind.

How many times will your communistic ideal of free market have to destroy our economy before you wake up to the reality that competition in the markets, there is no efficiency. Without an evenly enforced fair set of rules, like say in professional sports, there is not competition, and it is just one con artist crook looking to rip off another.

reply to post by Hemisphere

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Few made money in the dotcom bubble, and most of them were crooks. The dot com bubble created by Newt and his fellow neocons who deregulated the finance industry, which then proceeded to destroy the technological expansion that was going on.

The economic boom of the 90ties under Clinton could have been sustained for decades, but the neocon free market communists destroyed it.

You people really need to stop parroting right wing propaganda and wake up to reality.

The current revolution that is going on will go on no matter what Obama does. Giant ICs will be gone in just a few decades. The writing is already on the wall.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Hemisphere

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Few made money in the dotcom bubble, and most of them were crooks. The dot com bubble created by Newt and his fellow neocons who deregulated the finance industry, which then proceeded to destroy the technological expansion that was going on.

The economic boom of the 90ties under Clinton could have been sustained for decades, but the neocon free market communists destroyed it.

You people really need to stop parroting right wing propaganda and wake up to reality.

The current revolution that is going on will go on no matter what Obama does. Giant ICs will be gone in just a few decades. The writing is already on the wall.

Of course they will be gone, there will be one "brand". No argument.

Newt, he's touring with Irreverant Al Sharpton right now. The Joker and the Riddler on a tour of schools, yay! Even the Rinos have tuned out Newt. He never had the clout you attribute to him. Clinton never left office, at least that's what I saw. Others noticed much more than I.

Most Americans saw President Bill Clinton and Speaker Newt Gingrich as staunch foes--"the polar extremes of Pennsylvania Avenue." But as Steven Gillon reveals in The Pact, these powerful adversaries formed a secret alliance in 1997, a pact that would have rocked the political landscape, had it not foundered in the wake of the Lewinsky scandal. - Oxford University Press

Smarter people than I have reason to believe this one party theory. That doesn't mean it's right of course. It just means there is ample evidence. What do you make of Rahm Emanuel?

During his original 2002 campaign, Emanuel "indicated his support of President Bush's position on Iraq, but said he believed the president needed to better articulate his position to the American people" - Wikipedia (of all places)

Better articulate? Meaning what? There to shill for the oil companies? There to protect the Saudiis? No, there to protect Israel! We know Bush could not promote that as major among the myriad reasons for our being there. None of which included hammering his butt buddies the Saudiis for their part. Of course we know that Zionists and Neocons have parallel elitist agendas. We typically find them in the same office. Not here, one party.

Now the dotcom bubble. What do you think fueled the "economic boom of the 90ties under Clinton"? It was more than a few that made money.

What changed was not what we knew; it was how we felt about what we knew. Investors in the late 1990's were excessively optimistic about the prospects for growth; at one point, one of my business school professors pointed out that for Dell to meet the growth rate implied by its stock, it would have to increase sales by 400% a year, every year, for the next two decades. Before they reached that target, they would run out of people on the planet to sell their computers to. Irrational exuberance is too kind--investors in the late 1990's had completely slipped their cams. - Jane Galt December 9, 2003

Many acquired their "McMansions" and second homes during the 90's and the deregulation eventually took them back. This Galt makes some good points in this blog entry:

What happened to the stock market in the 1990's?

It was a Ponzi scheme plain and simple and people continue to fall for these. Even valid tech expansion would have eventually crumbled under the weight of this hype. Everyone could not get rich off of Dell, Sun, Motorola, Cisco, IBM... It all screamed for correction and sell-off and they did. Look at what survived. iPods, Yahoo (just barely) and Amazon. Now storage and speed for IT, that eliminates jobs and has a one time effect. And the time had not arrived for gene splicing to be offered in a kiosk at WalMart. All these bio stocks could offer was pointing to your flaws so that the health insurance industry could exclude you. That wasn't a fear that was/is a reality. Sign me up for that. And Bush didn't squash this industry with his feigned fear of the human genome. We now know that the geneticists had work arounds for the stem cell advancements Bush supposedly slammed the brakes on. That was pandering to his simpleton evangelical base. If the time were ripe, I think he would have ridden the wave of genetic advancement like that aircraft carrier into the history books. They knew it wasn't, it still isn't time. Bush wasn't stupid, just deceptive and evil. We've had more than one "bad actor" in that office. Where are the Genentechs now? Gone or scrambling.

Look at the news, there are clues there. If solar energy was on the verge of being in every home in the country the Warren Buffetts of the world would be in it up to their eyeballs and not simply dabbling and pandering for partnerships with the government on Squawk Box. These things are not going to take off because we wish it or throw more debt at it. The modern solar cell was patented by Ohl in 1946. 64 years later and it still costs $700 or more to solar power a laptop. There's too much demand and too many people working on this to think it's been buried solely by petroleum monopoly and greed. It's just not time. That's what happened in the dotcom bubble. These were wishes not realities. Deregulation? Just more stuff hitting the fan at that time.

The "current revolution" like the dotcom era is another even bolder Ponzi scheme and that "will go on no matter what Obama does". Some are on to this.

[edit on 23-12-2009 by Hemisphere]

reply to post by Hemisphere

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Deregulation created the dot com bubble and the real estate bubble, and destroyed our economy.

It was Gingrich's contract on America that deregulated banking that lead to the wide spread corruption and destroyed out economy in the late nineties, and has basically laid waste to our entire economy throughout the last decade.

The results of banking deregulation has proven once again that markets without rules quickly turn into giant ponzi schemes. this is what happened in the 20ties, 80ties, and double 00s. When you are people going to face the reality.

Once again, dot com bubble didn't get rolling until 1997. Up to that point the nineties were going great after Clinton took over in 93. Try to pull the wool out from in front of your eyes.

Seriously, what part of politics don't you understand.
Clinton and Gngrich are both master politicians, no one knows what their relationship was. These better minds you allude to are only distracting your attention with smoke and mirrors, forget all that stuff and concentrate on keeping your eye on the ball.

Big oil is the biggest source of big money. and they aren't into solar power, or wind power, because they can't control it. Big oil spends lots of money campaigning against green technology because they recognize that once people start putting up wind mills and driving pneumatic cars that they can charge up with those windmills, big oil which controls most of the money, will lose its monopoly power over transportation.

If you honestly want independence from big corporations you will support green technologies.

reply to post by Misoir

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he got no serious corporate money for his campaign

A star for your post and I hope everyone reads the above quote.

America is owned and operated for and by the large corporations.

They, with their money and lobbyists control Washington DC and have for years.

Until we kick Corporate America out of our governments bed we will continue to be ruled by a Corporate Dictatorship.

We don't need a civil war - we need another revolution.


“The calculus by Democrats is that they don't want to offend anyone. But in trying not to offend anyone, they lose support from everyone. What many Democrats haven't yet learned from Republicans is that it is better to be loved by some, and hated by others, than try to be liked by everyone. Because when you do that, you are liked by no one.” - David Sirota



[edit on 23-12-2009 by ofhumandescent]

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Hemisphere

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When you are people going to face the reality.

Seriously, what part of politics don't you understand.

Wnen you are people! So there. (I kind of like that phrase of turn.)

Politics equals paybacks, what's to understand? The big "green" santa himself, Warren Buffett, admits you can't run tractor trailers on batteries. What part of mechanics do understand not you? (I told you like that I. You read like Yoda!) By the way, you can shouting stop now. Bullying work does not.

reply to post by poet1b

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Poet1b, not for nothing but stop addressing me like I'm a group. It's just you and me by now. You are shouting at me alone. This thread died days ago. The OP isn't even checking the thread at this point. Relax, even the POTUS is heading to Hawaii by now. I hear the first family is swimming there so as to reduce their “carbon footprint” as a holiday gift to the world. I said holiday, they would like that, no commitment, no exclusion, very pc. (Phony-Christian that is.)

I for one would like nothing better than for you to be right and everything improves. Have a good holiday whatever you keep to. And a Happy New Year.

reply to post by Hemisphere

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Ah, but you can run tractors on biodiesel, which can be made very efficiently from a well known agricultural product which for some reason is illegal. In fact the first diesel engine was designed to run on diesel made from this product. Heck, blue jeans were originally made from this product, and the sails which powered the ships of old. This product requires no fertilizer, it is considered by some to be a weed, due to its incredible ability to survive despite efforts to kill it. It even cleans toxins out of the soil.

This point makes it pretty clear who the Powers That Be are.

Heck you came up with the colored banner to shout out your opinion, I just shouted back louder.

Who is listening, I don't know. "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one." A.E.

On a side note, trains are pulled by electric motors. Yes, you can run a tractor on an electric motor.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you, as well. Hopefully 2010 will be a good year.

reply to post by poet1b

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I'm not sure what you mean by colored banner? The green around the "Elvis Bull"? Wait a minute..... I see it. That is not a colored banner that is a web-link to the entire article that I had quoted above it. If you click on that text you go to the blog entry of that "Jane Galt". That's not my opinion, that's the title of her article. You can do that here. When you are posting there is a globe in the line of whatever you call those things above the posting area. You click on it and enter the title for the link and then in the second screen you type or paste in the URL for the page. Minus the "http://" as it is already there.

Yes I know, Willie Nelson and his tour bus and he's also for legalizing another crop and that doesn't help the bio-diesel discussion. You've got no arguments from me on that account. If that worked and it was just the oil lobbyists it would be great. You would think Texans would be all for that.

Thanks, Merry Christmas and watch out for those colored banners!

reply to post by Hemisphere

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Oh, that was a link, I thought it was a headline. Usually a link is put just above or just below an ex quote. I did not realize it was a link.

I put you in a group of people who are starting to realize that blaming government doesn't work, who are finally seeing the damage that private institutions can do, but still cling to the free market ideology.

Since investment deregulation was enacted, the finance sector has been turned into a huge international casino. These derivative based investment funds carrying out naked short selling will always create stock market bubbles that then lead to busts. There can be no stable economic growth under such circumstances, and technological advances get destroyed. Our economy becomes a waste land.

Laws that regulate business are needed. Yes, regulations can become too much of a burden, but if they are not adequately put in place and enforced in order to be effective, then the destruction is even worse. This is what we have seen since 97 when banking de-regulation was introduced.

The sooner we can get people to wake up to the fact that the Free Market concept is just communism repackaged, just another foolishly unrealistic idealism that can not be made to work in the real world, the sooner we can start back on the road to true economic growth.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Hemisphere

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Oh, that was a link, I thought it was a headline. Usually a link is put just above or just below an ex quote. I did not realize it was a link.

I put you in a group of people who are starting to realize that blaming government doesn't work, who are finally seeing the damage that private institutions can do, but still cling to the free market ideology.

Since investment deregulation was enacted, the finance sector has been turned into a huge international casino. These derivative based investment funds carrying out naked short selling will always create stock market bubbles that then lead to busts. There can be no stable economic growth under such circumstances, and technological advances get destroyed. Our economy becomes a waste land.

Laws that regulate business are needed. Yes, regulations can become too much of a burden, but if they are not adequately put in place and enforced in order to be effective, then the destruction is even worse. This is what we have seen since 97 when banking de-regulation was introduced.

The sooner we can get people to wake up to the fact that the Free Market concept is just communism repackaged, just another foolishly unrealistic idealism that can not be made to work in the real world, the sooner we can start back on the road to true economic growth.

Thanks for that break down and those previous poet1b. I have clung to the free market ideology. But there's something to repeating the same steps and expecting a different outcome. It makes sense that without adequate regulation someone will always, even by dumb luck, get an overwhelming advantage, squash competition and effectively stagnate societal, technological and economic progress. It would seem all roads lead to a "company store" in the end. I suspect you would recommend a hybrid system of some sort.

reply to post by Hemisphere

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You're welcome and Thanks.

Not all roads lead to a company store situation where one group controls everything. Through principles of democracy, and a republic is a form of democracy, we have been able to regularly defeat this push by the overly ambitious to control everyone else, and establish societies with a fair amount of equality. However, we seem to go through these cycles where the power mongers succeed in taking control, and then the people succeed in taking it back. The free market ideology has helped the power mongers in their efforts to rule over society, but I think that computers, the internet, and automation are going to take away the control gained by the power mongers for a long, long time.

More and more people starting their own businesses, as opposed to looking for a job is the answer I think.

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